Best defensemen in the NHL

[egroen 384]

One person I would consider is Mark Streit.

I have not watched too many Islanders games so am not fit to comment too much; but 56 points and +5 on a team that gave up 78 more goals than it scored is pretty damn impressive. In fact, he was the only player on the entire team to finish with a +.

He led the team in points, with Kyle Okoposo next with all of 39 points.

Edited August 13, 2009 by egroen

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

You said that I ranked Pronger where I did because he always pushed around Hudler.

Now, aside from the fact that I have posted logical reasons for why I would rank Pronger where I did, that particular statement is basically calling me a biased homer. Which I personally take as an insult; I don't know how others feel.

Stats aren't everything. The Ducks struggled last year, as did Pronger's numbers in a way. Meanwhile, a team like the Bruins looked good, so a guy like Wideman had good numbers and a good plus/minus. I don't think any player in the league (Wideman included) would suggest that he's better than Pronger.

Also, a guy like Markov is softer than a pillow and constantly gives the puck away in his zone. He's a good offensive player, but not better all-around than Pronger.

I don't know why you put Zubov on your list at all. He missed most of last season, and has left to join the KHL. How can he be one of the best defensemen in the NHL?

Weber is a guy who has had one really good season. You can't read too much into that and put him ahead of a guy that's solid every year for the last 10 plus seasons.

Boyle and Greeen are basically forwards playing defense. Just because they scored more points than Pronger doesn't make them better players, and once again, they benefitted statistically from playing on higher scoring teams.

Bottom line is that there's no way Pronger should be 13th, and should probably be in the top 5. His playoff performances are constantly solid, and that's more than you can say about any other defenseman, except Lidstrom.

Edited August 13, 2009 by GMRwings1983

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Pronger and Chara are there with Lidstrom and Niedermayer in the top 4. Keith is good, but Top 10 good, not Top 5.

[TheDetroitRedWings 286]

This is spun off of the Toews thread to provide a separate thread to discuss defensemen in.

Re-posting my top-15 post:

How I would rank the NHL's top 15 defensemen, based on last season, is:

1) Lidstrom

2) Keith

3) Chara

4) Niedermayer

5) Weber

6) Boyle

7) Zubov

8) Markov

9) Bouwmeester

10) Wideman

11) Phaneuf

12) Green

13) Pronger

14) Rafalski

15) Kaberle

The thing is, Keith is an extremely solid defensive defenseman with offensive skill, and he has a physical game. Admittedly, he's not perfect, but IMHO he outplayed the rest of these guys (sans Nick) and most of these guys either have yet to reach the level Keith displayed or have been below it and declining for years now. A healthy Zubov, Niedermayer, or Pronger who was in prime form would have beaten Keith out. Chara is the only defenseman on the list who really challenged Keith for the second slot, and his tendency to just happen to pick up points when he did very little to actually produce the offensive play was a disadvantage when compared to Keith, who is a major factor in a lot of Chicago's offensive rushes and their power play setup. Chara is an excellent defensive defenseman, but he's not that much better defensively than Keith to offset the offensive advantage that Keith holds.

Sorry man. But no way in hell Keith gets a higher ranking than Chara. Most knowledgeable hockey fans would argue Chara may even be higher than Nick. I'm not saying Chara is better than Nick. But he certainly gets second best. Your crush on Keith is pretty funny dude.

[egroen 384]

Sorry man. But no way in hell Keith gets a higher ranking than Chara. Most knowledgeable hockey fans would argue Chara may even be higher than Nick. I'm not saying Chara is better than Nick. But he certainly gets second best. Your crush on Keith is pretty funny dude.

Not yet, not last year.

Chara was not only outscored by Lidstrom but had a worse +/- on a team that gave up over 40 less goals than Detroit (almost the exact same goals for). Lidstrom was also in front of the statistically worst performing goalie in the league, while Chara was in front of the Vezina winner.

Edited August 13, 2009 by egroen

[eva unit zero 271]

Not yet, not last year.

Chara was not only outscored by Lidstrom but had a worse +/- on a team that gave up over 40 less goals than Detroit (almost the exact same goals for). Lidstrom was also in front of the statistically worst performing goalie in the league, while Chara was in front of the Vezina winner.

Double post.

Edited August 14, 2009 by eva unit zero

[eva unit zero 271]

Not yet, not last year.

Chara was not only outscored by Lidstrom but had a worse +/- on a team that gave up over 40 less goals than Detroit (almost the exact same goals for). Lidstrom was also in front of the statistically worst performing goalie in the league, while Chara was in front of the Vezina winner.

Yeah, but if we were going only based on stats, eg, I should have put Wideman ahead of Chara. A player's ability can affect his stats, but so can things such as how much he played, who he played with, and who he played against.

As far as Streit, he's actually the next guy on my list after Kaberle, followed by Gonchar, Blake, Kronwall, and Visnovsky to round out the top 20.

Just a side note...out of the players I actually ranked based on last season, which is a list that covers about 200 forwards (anyone who scored 40 points or more, plus anyone I felt should be included that didn't score 40) 200 defensemen (The top 6 defensemen from every team in games played, plus anyone I felt should be included), and 50 goalies, the Wings last season had seven "first line" quality forwards (Z, Dats, Hossa, Mule, Huds, Flip, and Cleary) and two "second line" quality forwards (Sammy, Homer) for a total of nine "top-six" forwards. The Wings also had three "#1" defensemen (Lids, Raf, Kronner), one "#2" defensemen (Stu), two "#4" defensemen (Lils, Big Rig) for a total of six "top-four" defensemen. The team also had, as spares, one "#6" defenseman (Cheli) and two "#7" defensemen (Meech, Lebs) on their roster. And finally, the Wings had one "#1" goalie (top 25) and one of the top "2" goalies. With the changes this summer, the Wings now have 5 "first line" forwards, having lost Hossa and Hudler, and two "second line" forwards, having swapped Sammy for Williams. This means 7 'top-six' forwards on the team.

[egroen 384]

Yeah, but if we were going only based on stats, eg, I should have put Wideman ahead of Chara. A player's ability can affect his stats, but so can things such as how much he played, who he played with, and who he played against.

Chara faced consistently better opposition than Wideman - and Bruins fans will almost unanimously state Chara had a better season.

Here is a site you can go to check out who they are playing against:

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/200809players/index.php

Click on the player and it will give you his even strength minutes with both teamates and opponents.

As far as Streit, he's actually the next guy on my list after Kaberle, followed by Gonchar, Blake, Kronwall, and Visnovsky to round out the top 20.

Gonchar has really improved defensively -- there are a lot of defenseman who would fit into that 10-20 spot. Really 5-20 as beyond the top handful there are a lot of defenseman all in that pool.

Just a side note...out of the players I actually ranked based on last season, which is a list that covers about 200 forwards (anyone who scored 40 points or more, plus anyone I felt should be included that didn't score 40) 200 defensemen (The top 6 defensemen from every team in games played, plus anyone I felt should be included), and 50 goalies, the Wings last season had seven "first line" quality forwards (Z, Dats, Hossa, Mule, Huds, Flip, and Cleary) and two "second line" quality forwards (Sammy, Homer) for a total of nine "top-six" forwards. The Wings also had three "#1" defensemen (Lids, Raf, Kronner), one "#2" defensemen (Stu), two "#4" defensemen (Lils, Big Rig) for a total of six "top-four" defensemen. The team also had, as spares, one "#6" defenseman (Cheli) and two "#7" defensemen (Meech, Lebs) on their roster. And finally, the Wings had one "#1" goalie (top 25) and one of the top "2" goalies. With the changes this summer, the Wings now have 5 "first line" forwards, having lost Hossa and Hudler, and two "second line" forwards, having swapped Sammy for Williams. This means 7 'top-six' forwards on the team.

Post the list later if you have the time - I'd be interested in seeing it.

I have to imagine Conklin was the #1 goalie and Osgodd the #2 - based on their stats (regular season)?

[eva unit zero 271]

Chara faced consistently better opposition than Wideman - and Bruins fans will almost unanimously state Chara had a better season.

Here is a site you can go to check out who they are playing against:

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/200809players/index.php

Click on the player and it will give you his even strength minutes with both teamates and opponents.

Gonchar has really improved defensively -- there are a lot of defenseman who would fit into that 10-20 spot. Really 5-20 as beyond the top handful there are a lot of defenseman all in that pool.

Post the list later if you have the time - I'd be interested in seeing it.

I have to imagine Conklin was the #1 goalie and Osgodd the #2 - based on their stats (regular season)?

The list is based on both stats and having watched the players play. Despite the stereotype people like to hit me with around here, I am not a robot and don't do everything based on stats. For example, Pronger posted the best numbers of any Anaheim defenseman in the playoffs, but having watched most of Anaheim's games, I felt that Niedermayer outplayed him considerably and that despite the difference in scoring numbers, Ryan Whitney was just as good overall. Speaking of Anaheim defensemen from last season, I feel they had one of, if not the most overrated player in the NHL in Francois Beauchemin. People seem to always talk about Beauchemin as if he's some great defensemen and a future Norris contender. The best I've ever seen out of him in his career, a guy who's 29 now, is the kind of play you would expect from an average second pairing defenseman. Whitney (26) and James Wisniewski (25), OTOH, are considerably underrated, so I suppose it worked out.

Furthermore, while Keith may not have put up the numbers in the postseason, he played extremely impressive defense. Anaheim had a handful of decent defensive defensemen and several defensively dedicated forwards, as well as a very good goalie who was extremely hot.

Chicago had primarily offensive defensemen who were at best average defenseively; Seabrook and Walker perhaps being the only guys who could really play better than average in their own end, and Chicago was particularly lacking in defensively skilled forwards past a couple of guys, more than half of whom were also necessary for their offensive performance. Their goaltender was solid until injury took him out late in the Detroit series.

As far as my list goes, maybe I'll post it later. But here are a few interesting players on it that I am sure will provoke debate and/or draw ire, as far as where players are ranked among their position:

F Henrik Zetterberg #1

F Alexander Ovechkin #2

F Pavel Datsyuk #3

F Evgeni Malkin #4

F Ryan Getzlaf #5

F Sidney Crosby #6

F Marian Hossa #9

F Tim Connolly #19

F Vincent Lecavalier #25

F Sergei Fedorov #31

F Jonathan Toews #38

F Jiri Hudler #68

F Valtteri Filppula #69

D Brian Campbell #21

D Pavel Kubina #23

D Tom Gilbert #30

D Alexander Edler #32

D Mattias Ohlund #33

D Wade Redden #37

D Mike Komisarek #50

D Brad Stuart #56

D Robyn Regehr #64

D Ed Jovanovski #91

D Francois Beauchemin #102

G Pekka Rinne #9

G Steve Mason #10

G Evgeni Nabokov #12

G Rick Dipietro #16

G Craig Anderson #17

G Scott Clemmensen #18

G Joey MacDonald #30

G Miikka Kiprusoff #42

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Markov, OTOH, is underrated defensively. A lot of people consider him a liability defensively when honestly, he's pretty reliable in his own end.

Markov lead the NHL in turnovers last season (with Green coming right behind him for defensive turnovers).

He'll have to stop giving the puck away before he gets some serious respect defensively.

[eva unit zero 271]

Markov lead the NHL in turnovers last season (with Green coming right behind him for defensive turnovers).

He'll have to stop giving the puck away before he gets some serious respect defensively.

The difference is, despite being a quick skating defenseman Green often comes back to his own zone after his forwards and is not terribly good at preventing scoring chances, while Markov is quite often the first man back on a team with quick forwards and is a reliable defenseman as far as breaking up a passing play, tying up an opposing player/his stick, or things like that. Again, if giveaways or giveaway/takeaway ratio were the only measure of defense, Chara would be considered well below average defensively and he's clearly not.

Or, to make my point in a shorter statement...

If you were to use stats to determine who the best defensive defensemen were...Markov was third in takeaways.

The Rangers' Paul Mara played 76 games while only giving up the puck 13 times with 10 takeaways. Only Bryan Rodney of Carolina (0 in 8 games) , Nathan McIver of Anaheim (1 in 18GP), and Mike Lundin of Tampa Bay (4 in 25) had a better giveaways per game ratio of any defenseman who played more than five games in the NHL last season.

Does that mean that Paul Mara, a defenseman typically considered average defensively, is the best defensive defenseman in the league? I certainly don't think he is.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Not yet, not last year.

Chara was not only outscored by Lidstrom but had a worse +/- on a team that gave up over 40 less goals than Detroit (almost the exact same goals for). Lidstrom was also in front of the statistically worst performing goalie in the league, while Chara was in front of the Vezina winner.

Well said.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

The difference is, despite being a quick skating defenseman Green often comes back to his own zone after his forwards and is not terribly good at preventing scoring chances, while Markov is quite often the first man back on a team with quick forwards and is a reliable defenseman as far as breaking up a passing play, tying up an opposing player/his stick, or things like that. Again, if giveaways or giveaway/takeaway ratio were the only measure of defense, Chara would be considered well below average defensively and he's clearly not.

Or, to make my point in a shorter statement...

If you were to use stats to determine who the best defensive defensemen were...Markov was third in takeaways.

The Rangers' Paul Mara played 76 games while only giving up the puck 13 times with 10 takeaways. Only Bryan Rodney of Carolina (0 in 8 games) , Nathan McIver of Anaheim (1 in 18GP), and Mike Lundin of Tampa Bay (4 in 25) had a better giveaways per game ratio of any defenseman who played more than five games in the NHL last season.

Does that mean that Paul Mara, a defenseman typically considered average defensively, is the best defensive defenseman in the league? I certainly don't think he is.

I'm just saying-- when you lead the entire league in giveaways it's hard to make the argument that you're even average defensively. He may have taken quite a few pucks away, but he still gave the most away in the NHL. You're right that that isn't the only significant defensive stat, but you can't say it isn't an important stat. Giveaways are definitely a bad, bad thing to be accused of. This guy was the master of giving the puck away last year. I'm not saying he's the worst defensive player in the league, but I do think he's below average defensively, especially compared to other #1 d-men.

So in summary, while your giveaway/takeaway ratio isn't the only measure of defensive proficiency, it's certainly not something you can ignore when talking about defensive skill.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

I should add that I'm not only considering giveaways when I say that Markov isn't a great defensive player. I learned a lesson about using one stat to justify defensive ability when the Selke nominations were released. Penguins fans on TSN bitched that Malkin got snubbed because he was the league leader in takeaways. Of course none of them seemed to notice how highly he ranked in giveaways.

[titanium2 867]

I should add that I'm not only considering giveaways when I say that Markov isn't a great defensive player. I learned a lesson about using one stat to justify defensive ability when the Selke nominations were released. Penguins fans on TSN bitched that Malkin got snubbed because he was the league leader in takeaways. Of course none of them seemed to notice how highly he ranked in giveaways.

Noooo. Ignoring both sides? They would never do that.

[Nicklin3011 0]

With Lids on his way out in a few years...Keith is by far the best D-man in the league. Maybe not offensive wise, but the guy is a shutdown speed demon/ physical force. Seabrook is top 15 as well. What a pairing.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

With Lids on his way out in a few years...Keith is by far the best D-man in the league. Maybe not offensive wise, but the guy is a shutdown speed demon/ physical force. Seabrook is top 15 as well. What a pairing.

Cam Barker is also in the top 15, as is the defensive juggernaut Brian Campbell.

Also, Ben Eager is the greatest enforcer in the NHL right now.

[TheDetroitRedWings 286]

With Lids on his way out in a few years...Keith is by far the best D-man in the league. Maybe not offensive wise, but the guy is a shutdown speed demon/ physical force. Seabrook is top 15 as well. What a pairing.

I'll take Chara over Keith any day of the week.

[eva unit zero 271]

I should add that I'm not only considering giveaways when I say that Markov isn't a great defensive player. I learned a lesson about using one stat to justify defensive ability when the Selke nominations were released. Penguins fans on TSN bitched that Malkin got snubbed because he was the league leader in takeaways. Of course none of them seemed to notice how highly he ranked in giveaways.

Honestly, I have generally not really thought there is a stat that really reflects defensive ability. The fact that Green and Markov are among the leaders in both gives and takes shows this quite well.

But I have always considered giveaways to be much more reflective of offensive defensemen whose passes do not connect from being off target, or from the recipient simply not doing what he was supposed to and therefore not being where he was supposed to be.

Takeaways are often credited to players who pick up a puck that was simply mishandled and lost by an opposing puck carrier. Takes are also often credited when players attempt to pass into or through a crowded area and the pass is intercepted.

So while actually giving up the puck or taking it away is quite important, the STATISTIC is far from representative of those abilities and does not reflect defensive ability.

[Zion 93]

How is Neidavacation on this list? He's as bad as Rafalski defensively.

[tommingthepuck96 1]

Cam Barker is also in the top 15, as is the defensive juggernaut Brian Campbell.

Also, Ben Eager is the greatest enforcer in the NHL right now.

Also huet without a doubt will be a front runner for the vezina next year, and don't forget Toews is a lock for first line center spot on team Canada next year.

[BeeRYCE 2]

Also huet without a doubt will be a front runner for the vezina next year, and don't forget Toews is a lock for first line center spot on team Canada next year.

Hey, joke around all you want, but Toews is the man... If it weren't for Crosby being around, he'd have potential to be a first line center for the 2014 team, .

[Lidstrom for Norris 0]

Ill take this list a little bit further. This is strictly based upon the 08-09 season, IMO of course.

1. Nicklas Lidstrom- DET
2. Zdeno Chara- BOS
3. Chris Pronger- ANA
4. Sergei Gonchar- PIT
5. Andrei Markov- MTL
6. Dan Boyle- SJS
7. Mike Green- WSH
8. Mark Streit- NYI
9. Scott Niedermayer- ANA
10. Dion Phaneuf- CGY
11. Kimmo Timonen- PHI
12. Sheldon Souray- EDM
13. Brian Rafalski- DET
14. Shea Weber- NSH
15. Ed Jovanovski- PHX
16. Jay Bouwmeester- FLA
17. Niklas Kronwall- DET
18. Kevin Bieksa- VAN
19. Duncan Keith- CHI
20. Rob Blake- SJS
21. Brian Campbell- CHI
22. Brent Burns- MIN
23. Pavel Kubina- TOR
24. Alexander Edler- VAN
25. Ryan Suter- NSH
26. Sergei Zubov- DAL
27. Jaroslav Spacek- BUF
28. Tom Gilbert- EDM
29. Dennis Wideman- BOS
30. Joseph Corvo- CAR
31. Willie Mitchell- VAN
32. Bryan McCabe- FLA
33. Filip Kuba- OTT
34. Tomas Kaberle- TOR
35. Ryan Whitney- ANA
36. Marek Zidlicky- MIN
37. Robyn Regehr- CGY
38. Mathieu Schneider- MTL
39. Stephane Robidas- DAL
40. Christian Ehrhoff- SJS
41. Paul Martin- NJD
42. Brent Seabrook- CHI
43. Mattias Ohlund- VAN
44. Denis Grebeshkov- EDM
45. Brad Stuart- DET
46. Cam Barker- CHI
47. John-Michael Liles- COL
48. Kyle Quincey- LAK
49. Lubomir Visnovsky- EDM
50. Kristopher Letang- PIT

Let me know what you think

[TheDetroitRedWings 286]

Ill take this list a little bit further. This is strictly based upon the 08-09 season, IMO of course.

1. Nicklas Lidstrom- DET
2. Zdeno Chara- BOS
3. Chris Pronger- ANA
4. Sergei Gonchar- PIT
5. Andrei Markov- MTL
6. Dan Boyle- SJS
7. Mike Green- WSH
8. Mark Streit- NYI
9. Scott Niedermayer- ANA
10. Dion Phaneuf- CGY
11. Kimmo Timonen- PHI
12. Sheldon Souray- EDM
13. Brian Rafalski- DET
14. Shea Weber- NSH
15. Ed Jovanovski- PHX
16. Jay Bouwmeester- FLA
17. Niklas Kronwall- DET
18. Kevin Bieksa- VAN
19. Duncan Keith- CHI
20. Rob Blake- SJS
21. Brian Campbell- CHI
22. Brent Burns- MIN
23. Pavel Kubina- TOR
24. Alexander Edler- VAN
25. Ryan Suter- NSH
26. Sergei Zubov- DAL
27. Jaroslav Spacek- BUF
28. Tom Gilbert- EDM
29. Dennis Wideman- BOS
30. Joseph Corvo- CAR
31. Willie Mitchell- VAN
32. Bryan McCabe- FLA
33. Filip Kuba- OTT
34. Tomas Kaberle- TOR
35. Ryan Whitney- ANA
36. Marek Zidlicky- MIN
37. Robyn Regehr- CGY
38. Mathieu Schneider- MTL
39. Stephane Robidas- DAL
40. Christian Ehrhoff- SJS
41. Paul Martin- NJD
42. Brent Seabrook- CHI
43. Mattias Ohlund- VAN
44. Denis Grebeshkov- EDM
45. Brad Stuart- DET
46. Cam Barker- CHI
47. John-Michael Liles- COL
48. Kyle Quincey- LAK
49. Lubomir Visnovsky- EDM
50. Kristopher Letang- PIT

Let me know what you think

MUCH better than the thread starter's.

[eva unit zero 271]

Ill take this list a little bit further. This is strictly based upon the 08-09 season, IMO of course.

1. Nicklas Lidstrom- DET
2. Zdeno Chara- BOS
3. Chris Pronger- ANA
4. Sergei Gonchar- PIT
5. Andrei Markov- MTL
6. Dan Boyle- SJS
7. Mike Green- WSH
8. Mark Streit- NYI
9. Scott Niedermayer- ANA
10. Dion Phaneuf- CGY
11. Kimmo Timonen- PHI
12. Sheldon Souray- EDM
13. Brian Rafalski- DET
14. Shea Weber- NSH
15. Ed Jovanovski- PHX
16. Jay Bouwmeester- FLA
17. Niklas Kronwall- DET
18. Kevin Bieksa- VAN
19. Duncan Keith- CHI
20. Rob Blake- SJS
21. Brian Campbell- CHI
22. Brent Burns- MIN
23. Pavel Kubina- TOR
24. Alexander Edler- VAN
25. Ryan Suter- NSH
26. Sergei Zubov- DAL
27. Jaroslav Spacek- BUF
28. Tom Gilbert- EDM
29. Dennis Wideman- BOS
30. Joseph Corvo- CAR
31. Willie Mitchell- VAN
32. Bryan McCabe- FLA
33. Filip Kuba- OTT
34. Tomas Kaberle- TOR
35. Ryan Whitney- ANA
36. Marek Zidlicky- MIN
37. Robyn Regehr- CGY
38. Mathieu Schneider- MTL
39. Stephane Robidas- DAL
40. Christian Ehrhoff- SJS
41. Paul Martin- NJD
42. Brent Seabrook- CHI
43. Mattias Ohlund- VAN
44. Denis Grebeshkov- EDM
45. Brad Stuart- DET
46. Cam Barker- CHI
47. John-Michael Liles- COL
48. Kyle Quincey- LAK
49. Lubomir Visnovsky- EDM
50. Kristopher Letang- PIT

Let me know what you think

Far too based on offense IMHO, with some players ranked well below where they belong even though they performed well offensively. Questionable ranks:

Sheldon Souray #12

Ed Jovanovski #15

Bryan McCabe #32

Robyn Regehr #37

I wonder how you ranked any of those defensemen so highly. I understand they all have quite a bit of hype around them, but none are terribly effective defensively and both Jovo and Regehr posted offensive numbers well below those ranks. McCabe and Souray rank slightly higher than that, but as two of the most one-dimensional defensemen in the league they can't simply hold onto that spot based on offense alone.

I'm not even going to get into the other problems I see with your list based on players who are completely one-dimensional being ranked too high, and defensemen who are strong in both ends being ranked far too low. For example, I wouldn't blame anyone for considering Duncan Keith, Shea Weber, or Sergei Zubov outside the top three or four. But outside the top ten is very questionable for any of those three, especially when Green is in the top ten, and a guy like Gonchar who is no better offensively and not nearly as good defensively is ranked well above them. Most of the top 30 I would agree with, although not necessarily in the same order obviously.