The Bertuzzi & Moore incident

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I think more evidence is favored to the "intentionally took him to the ice" argument considering Bertuzzi lost momentum after punching Moore, then regained it shortly after when they both began to fall forward.

If Bertuzzi had simply lost his balance going forward, he wouldn't have slowed down then gone forward again.

I really doubt he accidentally fell on Moore, simply due to the body language Bertuzzi displayed.

And I can't prove or disprove what you're saying. I'm just not 100% convinced. That said, for somebody who has made up their mind and is 100% convinced, the outrage is understandable. I just don't see it that way is all. I guess you could say I am giving the benefit of the doubt not being able to have read Bert's mind in that what, 2-3 seconds of the entire incident before everyone landed on Moore. One thing is for sure. Todd Bertuzzi knows if he knew Moore was out and if he intentionally drove his face into the ice. And he'll have to live with that if it is indeed the case.

[Doc Holiday 0]

Matt Johnson ended Jeff Beukeboom's career with a sucker punch. I was watching that game and remember when it happened. And Boomer was 6-5 and 235 pounds of tough. He never really recovered from this punch and I think Johnson got a slap on the wrist suspension. This is relative to some modern day suspensions is what I'm saying. Why? because it happened many years ago when s*** like that happened alot and they didn't take care of players as much as they do now (which they still don't do a great job of Mr. Campbell )

Wow I completely forgot about that play.

And I can't prove or disprove what you're saying. I'm just not 100% convinced. That said, for somebody who has made up their mind and is 100% convinced, the outrage is understandable. I just don't see it that way is all. I guess you could say I am giving the benefit of the doubt not being able to have read Bert's mind in that what, 2-3 seconds of the entire incident before everyone landed on Moore. One thing is for sure. Todd Bertuzzi knows if he knew Moore was out and if he intentionally drove his face into the ice. And he'll have to live with that if it is indeed the case.

I do not believe Bert did it with a clear head. I believe that the emotions got the better of him, and it caused him to be irrational and do something very regrettable.

I've been there myself. It was the third period of a tied up hockey game, and I attempted to hit a forward on the other team. I got rocked. Then the play regrouped and I had another chance to wreck him. Once again I get rocked. A third time, we both go in the corner and I attempt to knock him away from the puck. This time I fall flat on my back, seeing stars, and in my rage I skate up to the guy and slash him in the back of the leg and start punching him. He turns around, lands a couple punches, and sends my sorry ass to the ice. I get a 2:00 instigator and a game misconduct, and I risk my team losing the game because I wanted to kick that guy's ass so badly. (We won the game in the final minute though)

I will support Bertuzzi in all his endeavors because I think it was a grave mistake. A mistake that was 100% his fault, but one I don't think he necessarily planned on doing.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Doc Holiday

[RedStormRising 7]

Let's use this thread to debate the whole Bertuzzi and Moore incident.

We'll keep the other thread to discuss Bertuzzi's possible signing in Detroit.

Um, what is the point of this thread exactly? This incident is over and done with, it is a distant memory. Can't we just let it go already? Seriously...

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

As a woman, I find it offensive that you would insinuate a man is not a man (a wimp, a *****, etc.) by giving them a woman's name. Doesn't matter what name you choose to use; Dorothy, Susan, Michelle, Amanda....whatever. And frankly, I don't give a rat's ass what you think I am to you. You're basically equating wimpiness or lack of strength with femininity which really.....is quite insulting.

So first you wrongly assume I am making judgments on one's sexual preference. Now, your beef is that I am insinuating women are weak. Ok, I guess that's fair considering my choice of wording. I don't view women, as a gender as weak. My wife gave birth to 2 children in my presence and I can attest to the fact that she's a hell of alot tougher than me with a far greater pain threshold. But I can see why you would interpret it that way.

The fact that I called some anonymous poster on a message board a woman's name, in an attempt to bust his balls (or would that be busting his va-j-j?) and you wanting to turn it into a male vs female ideological war is your business. If somebody here calls me a retard, i'm not so thin-skinned that I am going to take up the cause of the mentally disabled or whatever the s*** you want to dub them.

You're insulted? So what. Grow a pair already. Oh crap. Since you are female, is "growing a pair" some kind of insinuation that you aren't manly enough to carry a set o testicles on your person? If so, I retract that. Why don't you grow a thicker skin. s***. Let me check, I'd hate to find out women have thinner layers of epidermis than men. Then I really catch a tongue lashing from you.

Thank God this isn't a popularity contest or high school. So if you hate my guts I can really give a s***.

Put me on ignore or whatever. Not having to deal with you would be a blessing for me anyway.

[Guest micah]

As a woman, I find it offensive that you would insinuate a man is not a man (a wimp, a *****, etc.) by giving them a woman's name. Doesn't matter what name you choose to use; Dorothy, Susan, Michelle, Amanda....whatever. And frankly, I don't give a rat's ass what you think I am to you.

Women choose to get offended by such stupid things.

You're basically equating wimpiness or lack of strength with femininity which really.....is quite insulting.

I bet GS&T could beat you up.

[Guest micah]

I miss Pushor.

Best enforcer of all time AAAAA++++++ would buy again, FAST SHIPPING

[Holmstrom96 347]

My only argument here is that Mac and Bert both sucker punched their victims. And I take issue with anyone who says Mac didn't sucker punch Claude. He did. It's undeniable.

Well now I agree with you. It was a sucker punch. Claudia should have smelled it coming, but McCarty did quickly turn + his glove was still on. I don't think it's anywhere near as dirty as what Bertuzzi did, but I will agree with you when you classify it as a sucker punch.

I also agree with you that I don't think it was Bertuzzi's intention to drive Moore's head into the ice and injury him severely, but when you sucker punch someone possibly rendering them unconscious, you can tackle them too, and that's what makes Bertuzzi's manuever too dirty for me.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Wow I completely forgot about that play.

I do not believe Bert did it with a clear head. I believe that the emotions got the better of him, and it caused him to be irrational and do something very regrettable.

I've been there myself. It was the third period of a tied up hockey game, and I attempted to hit a forward on the other team. I got rocked. Then the play regrouped and I had another chance to wreck him. Once again I get rocked. A third time, we both go in the corner and I attempt to knock him away from the puck. This time I fall flat on my back, seeing stars, and in my rage I skate up to the guy and slash him in the back of the leg and start punching him. He turns around, lands a couple punches, and sends my sorry ass to the ice. I get a 2:00 instigator and a game misconduct, and I risk my team losing the game because I wanted to kick that guy's ass so badly. (We won the game in the final minute though)

I will support Bertuzzi in all his endeavors because I think it was a grave mistake. A mistake that was 100% his fault, but one I don't think he necessarily planned on doing.

Doc, you are preaching to the choir. I was suspended from both my men's ice league and 18 and up inline league. I was banned from broom ball in college for beating the tar out of a fraternity guy. A younger guy named Troy who I used to play ice and inline with once dubbed me Caesar. I thought it was because I was Billy badass. Nope, he said he called me caesar like the salad. Because I got tossed from games so much.

Most embarrassing moment: I javelin-threw a hockey stick at a goalie who was coming down ice to get into the middle of a brawl. I pretty much started the brawl and as I was being escorted off the ice the pile made its way over to us along the side boards and the ref had no choice but to protect himself and he let me go. I looked up and saw the goalie coming, had no way to get to him so I grabbed a stick that was waving around and I launched it. I hit him square in the chest (for which I am proud of cause that was a heck of a throw at a moving target ) obviously it didn't hurt him but the point is I have been cross-eyed more than my fair share of the time. That probably explains why I never condemned Bert to death and why I give him the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes you just lose it and you aren't really intending to seriously hurt somebody. Doesn't excuse it and you have to serve your punishments. I did mine. Bert did his. Time to move forward.

[Holmstrom96 347]

Um, what is the point of this thread exactly? This incident is over and done with, it is a distant memory. Can't we just let it go already? Seriously...

Because discussion of "the incident" was spilling over into other threads about signing Bertuzzi and it was making it so people couldn't intelligently discuss his possible addition to the team.

[egroen 384]

I got over the Bertuzzi incident quite some time ago -- before he ever joined the Red Wings the first time.

He's never been a particularly dirty player (heck, this team did employ Ulf Samuelsson and Ted Lindsay who were both FAR worse). Moore certainly did not deserve it, just like no player really deserves a career-ending accident, and no one will ever convince me Bertuzzi meant to end his career.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

I bet GS&T could beat you up.

Could... or Would?

Just playing GST

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Well now I agree with you. It was a sucker punch. Claudia should have smelled it coming, but McCarty did quickly turn + his glove was still on. I don't think it's anywhere near as dirty as what Bertuzzi did, but I will agree with you when you classify it as a sucker punch.

I also agree with you that I don't think it was Bertuzzi's intention to drive Moore's head into the ice and injury him severely, but when you sucker punch someone possibly rendering them unconscious, you can tackle them too, and that's what makes Bertuzzi's manuever too dirty for me.

No worries. As I have said to Doc, I can understand where the other side is coming from, saying Bert's was worse. It's all in the interpretation.

My only hope for Bert and Wings fans is that they can't let it go and wish him the best. He's a guy who is going to bring some much needed size and strength to the forward lines and his play in Calgary was pretty darn good offensively. He had some good numbers on a team not known for its' offensive explosiveness.

I hope Bert will do well and I am very enthused to have more size on the roster. Of course i am disappointed that we still don't have more guys capable of fighting or standing up for their teammates (like the Mike Fishers and Jamal Mayers of the NHL).....but one thing at a time I suppose.

oh, and by calling you Dorothy, I didn't mean to insinuate you were ***. For all I know you are a female and your name is actually Dorothy.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Could... or Would?

Just playing GST

I learned long ago not to even think about beating up on a girl. All I have to do is give my wife the stink-eye and then she goes to town where it hurts.................................on my credit card.

Seriously, if you've ever been in the presence of a woman giving birth. The next time you break a bone or something and if you so much as yelp, if you think about that birth experience and are honest with yourself, you'll look in the mirror and call yourself a total *****. You gotta handle it like Tom Berenger in Platoon "...shut up!....take the pain!"

[Holmstrom96 347]

Doc, you are preaching to the choir. I was suspended from both my men's ice league and 18 and up inline league. I was banned from broom ball in college for beating the tar out of a fraternity guy. A younger guy named Troy who I used to play ice and inline with once dubbed me Caesar. I thought it was because I was Billy badass. Nope, he said he called me caesar like the salad. Because I got tossed from games so much.

Most embarrassing moment: I javelin-threw a hockey stick at a goalie who was coming down ice to get into the middle of a brawl. I pretty much started the brawl and as I was being escorted off the ice the pile made its way over to us along the side boards and the ref had no choice but to protect himself and he let me go. I looked up and saw the goalie coming, had no way to get to him so I grabbed a stick that was waving around and I launched it. I hit him square in the chest (for which I am proud of cause that was a heck of a throw at a moving target ) obviously it didn't hurt him but the point is I have been cross-eyed more than my fair share of the time. That probably explains why I never condemned Bert to death and why I give him the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes you just lose it and you aren't really intending to seriously hurt somebody. Doesn't excuse it and you have to serve your punishments. I did mine. Bert did his. Time to move forward.

I never had any incidents like that. I've been out on the ice for some multi-fight incidents, but at 5'5" 115 lbs (I'm 135 now, I've put on my winter fat) I knew that if I disrespected or started s*** with ANYONE that I would immediately have my ass handed to myself in a way that would be so epic that it would become a viral video on youtube.

But I do agree, I've been out there before with emotion and clouded judgement and I've almost done stuff I would have regretted.

I don't agree with the Bertuzzi signing, but I highly doubt that he would ever done anything that stupid ever again, he did seem to be truly remorseful of the injury he caused.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I got over the Bertuzzi incident quite some time ago -- before he ever joined the Red Wings the first time.

He's never been a particularly dirty player (heck, this team did employ Ulf Samuelsson and Ted Lindsay who were both FAR worse). Moore certainly did not deserve it, just like no player really deserves a career-ending accident, and no one will ever convince me Bertuzzi meant to end his career.

QFT ALL OF IT

couldn't agree more Egroen.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Best enforcer of all time AAAAA++++++ would buy again, FAST SHIPPING

that fight always dumbfounded me. I never understood why Push just sort of stayed in a stationary position and let himself get tee'd up like that.

The fight aficionado I fancy myself, I can only recall two other instances where I just did a double-take like....."did he really just set his face up on a tee for that guy to hammer into oblivion?

One is recent

The other is a blast from the past

And since we're dredging up old videos, the Bommer had one of the most entertaining fights I can recall against Cam Russell (a.k.a. Darren McCarty's *****)

you gotta watch it closely and a couple of times but both of them land some right on the schnozzola. good scrap

and one of my all time favorite scraps. for a guy who didn't do much else, he pwned IMO here.

one more and Holmstrom's only fighting claim to fame that he was probably the only guy to ever bloody up Mike Keane while laying on his back. For those who aren't awares, that was a different fight during the infamous March game. I had forgotten about this one but what a great tussle.

[newfy 695]

Oh yes, he absolutely deserved a broken neck. That is absolutely the only thing that could have happened to him to somehow make up for the borderline body check he leveled on Naslund. Not a broken nose or a busted lip or a few missing teeth. Nope. Broken vertebrae was the only possible outcome that worked.

Absolutely. Broken neck. Way to go, dude!

Are you fraking kidding me?! People can die or become paralyzed from broken necks - if either of those scenarios happened as a result of this would you still say he deserved it? Or are you only saying he deserved it because he didn't die and can still walk? I don't care what the hell he did to Naslund, no one deserves a broken ******* neck.

Edit: You better be joking.

No one is syaing he deserved a broken neck and ended career I don't think. Everyone is saying he deserved a beating which he didn't want to take because he was a ***** and Bert attacked him. Yeah it sucks his neck got broken but he deserved to get punched just not a broken neck. Its notl ike Bertuzzi came up behind him grabbed his head and twisted.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I never had any incidents like that. I've been out on the ice for some multi-fight incidents, but at 5'5" 115 lbs (I'm 135 now, I've put on my winter fat) I knew that if I disrespected or started s*** with ANYONE that I would immediately have my ass handed to myself in a way that would be so epic that it would become a viral video on youtube.

But I do agree, I've been out there before with emotion and clouded judgement and I've almost done stuff I would have regretted.

I don't agree with the Bertuzzi signing, but I highly doubt that he would ever done anything that stupid ever again, he did seem to be truly remorseful of the injury he caused.

Nothing to be ashamed of. And frankly, I did a heck of alot of apologizing after games and such. It's not really the best feeling when you deck somebody. Sometimes, if the person has it coming it feels good. But sometimes you know, afterwards, that what you did wasn't really an appropriate response.

For instance, one game I was getting chippy for whatever reason and after the whistle, i'm skating out of the corner with this guy and he says something to me like "what's your problem or why you trying to start s***"...something to that effect. I don't know what it was but I just didn't like him calling me out. So I two-handed him right there on the spot, right above his skate and dropped him like a sack. Nobody saw it so I didn't even get a penalty. After the game I made a point to go over and apologize to him because it was a dick move.

[newfy 695]

As a woman, I find it offensive that you would insinuate a man is not a man (a wimp, a *****, etc.) by giving them a woman's name. Doesn't matter what name you choose to use; Dorothy, Susan, Michelle, Amanda....whatever. And frankly, I don't give a rat's ass what you think I am to you. You're basically equating wimpiness or lack of strength with femininity which really.....is quite insulting.

Thats fine if you want to find it offensive but theres really no cause for offense. In the area of toughness he is reffering to its obvious that men have the upper hand. You can be pissed at me if you want but theres a reason guys can't hit girls. Its a natural thing that guys are dominant physically over females. Its because of testosterone and different muscle make ups and all that good stuff. But don't be offended its just a fact of life.

And don't worry this isn't the days of Gordie Howe I don't think anyone will call anyone Dorothy

Edited August 18, 2009 by newfy

[Doc Holiday 0]

Nothing to be ashamed of. And frankly, I did a heck of alot of apologizing after games and such. It's not really the best feeling when you deck somebody. Sometimes, if the person has it coming it feels good. But sometimes you know, afterwards, that what you did wasn't really an appropriate response.

For instance, one game I was getting chippy for whatever reason and after the whistle, i'm skating out of the corner with this guy and he says something to me like "what's your problem or why you trying to start s***"...something to that effect. I don't know what it was but I just didn't like him calling me out. So I two-handed him right there on the spot, right above his skate and dropped him like a sack. Nobody saw it so I didn't even get a penalty. After the game I made a point to go over and apologize to him because it was a dick move.

Heh, I have never apologized for my antics on the ice. I was a chippy mother f***** when I was playing in competitive hockey, and I was never sorry for decking a guy or knocking him flat.

Of course I was forced out of my final game because of a lacerated spleen (one which we could have won if I was healthy according the everyone I talked to that night), so I supposed karma got back to me.

[esteef 2,679]

Bert just texted me and said he's kicking all your asses for badmouthing him.

esteef

[Guest micah]

Heh, I have never apologized for my antics on the ice. I was a chippy mother f***** when I was playing in competitive hockey, and I was never sorry for decking a guy or knocking him flat.

Of course I was forced out of my final game because of a lacerated spleen (one which we could have won if I was healthy according the everyone I talked to that night), so I supposed karma got back to me.

You suck and now I get why you love soft visor Euro-hockey. A non-Dorothy would have played through the ruptured spleen and instigated a fight with the opposing bench.

I think we've all made decisions, be them on the ice or at 3am on a Saturday night that we deeply regret when we regain our wits. As long as a guy like Bert doesn't habitually cheapshot people, I have no problem with him. He did something awful but none of us would remember it if Moore's neck hadn't broke.

Really, I wouldn't be afraid for mysealf playing against Bert. Dave Brown, chris Simon, Ulf Sammuelsson, yes. Bert? Nah. He really is pretty gentlemanly.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

You suck and now I get why you love soft visor Euro-hockey. A non-Dorothy would have played through the ruptured spleen and instigated a fight with the opposing bench.

I think we've all made decisions, be them on the ice or at 3am on a Saturday night that we deeply regret when we regain our wits. As long as a guy like Bert doesn't habitually cheapshot people, I have no problem with him. He did something awful but none of us would remember it if Moore's neck hadn't broke.

Really, I wouldn't be afraid for mysealf playing against Bert. Dave Brown, chris Simon, Ulf Sammuelsson, yes. Bert? Nah. He really is pretty gentlemanly.

Of all those guys, Simon would have me looking over my shoulder. that guy is ******* unspooled. Ulf, you just had to stay out of the danger areas so he wouldn't knee you. Simon, that crazy bastard, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near him just for fear he'd freak and just two hand you in the face for no reason.

[Doc Holiday 0]

You suck and now I get why you love soft visor Euro-hockey. A non-Dorothy would have played through the ruptured spleen and instigated a fight with the opposing bench.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Bert just texted me and said he's kicking all your asses for badmouthing him.

esteef

*Hides*

Anyways I haven't read any of the pages in the thread so I apologize if I rehash points.

Was Bertuzzi wrong for what he did? Without question. Should we forget about this incident? Absolutely not. However, we can make peace with it and move on, at least getting past "ZOMG BERTUZZI IS A SLIMEBALL FOR DOING THIS!" It'd be one thing if he was easy to dislike, like Sean Avery or guys like Terrell Owens or Chad Ocho Cinco (name change ) in the NFL who basically are drama queens and are always "HEY LOOK AT ME PEOPLE!", but he seems like he knows he f'ed up bigtime, is remorseful, and is/has moved on from it and is at least in a better state of mind.