RedWings Gone Wild 6 Report post Posted August 25, 2009 I stopped reading as soon as I saw stats. I'm simply saying that neither Vernon nor Rouse were below average hockey players by any stretch. Not sure why you take issue. just saying they don't belong in discussions of the Wing's best ever... that's all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Broken 16 381 Report post Posted August 26, 2009 (edited) just saying they don't belong in discussions of the Wing's best ever... that's all. Ya? And who the hell are you to decide who and what is worthy of discussion? Some of us base our preferences on more than stats. Sorry. Edited August 26, 2009 by Broken 16 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RedWings Gone Wild 6 Report post Posted August 26, 2009 Ya? And who the hell are you to decide who and what is worthy of discussion? Some of us base our preferences on more than stats. Sorry. What's the point of having this thread, or any thread for that matter? to discuss and justify our claims. If you feel it's out of the vein of appropriate conversation to make some simple and direct statements, backed up by evidence... then you really don't need to post in the first place Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Broken 16 381 Report post Posted August 26, 2009 (edited) What's the point of having this thread, or any thread for that matter? to discuss and justify our claims. If you feel it's out of the vein of appropriate conversation to make some simple and direct statements, backed up by evidence... then you really don't need to post in the first place Sorry I pointed out that rating Cujo above Vernon in terms of Red Wings history is dumb. He was probably the first Red Wing goalie to win a Cup in your lifetime. But you're right... Cujo had better stats. I got it now. Edited August 26, 2009 by Broken 16 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RedWings Gone Wild 6 Report post Posted August 26, 2009 Sorry I pointed out that rating Cujo above Vernon in terms of Red Wing history is dumb. He was probably the first Red Wing goalie to win a Cup in your lifetime. But you're right... Cujo had better stats. I got it now. The argument I presented was that Vernon was not a top goalie... (and if you read my post you'd notice I said that I do not believe Cujo to be of vital franchise importance either)..... I don't really care that he was the first Wings goalie in a long time to win the cup, he probably would have been the first one a few years earlier if he hadn't stunk in the 95 playoffs. This is an argument about the best all time Wings team... and nostalgia over a cup win isn't the only determiner of greatness... None of that factors in to the debate of who is better, and who was better during their tenure with the Wings Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Broken 16 381 Report post Posted August 26, 2009 (edited) The argument I presented was that Vernon was not a top goalie... (and if you read my post you'd notice I said that I do not believe Cujo to be of vital franchise importance either)..... I don't really care that he was the first Wings goalie in a long time to win the cup, he probably would have been the first one a few years earlier if he hadn't stunk in the 95 playoffs. This is an argument about the best all time Wings team... and nostalgia over a cup win isn't the only determiner of greatness... None of that factors in to the debate of who is better, and who was better during their tenure with the Wings In my opinion, Osgood is my first choice, Sawchuck is my second choice, Vernon is my third choice, Hasek is my fourth choice and Cujo is like... 10th... maybe. With Essensa a close 11th. Edited August 26, 2009 by Broken 16 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted August 26, 2009 (edited) Here's my list based on players who suited up with Detroit, based on entire careers in and out of a Detroit jersey. Forwards: G.Howe Yzerman Lindsay Dionne Fedorov Larionov Delvecchio Bathgate Hull Abel Robitaille F.Mahovlich Bucyk Lidstrom Harvey Fetisov Kelly Park Chelios Gadsby Sawchuk Hasek Edited August 26, 2009 by eva unit zero Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Broken 16 381 Report post Posted August 26, 2009 (edited) Here's my list based on players who suited up with Detroit, based on entire careers in and out of a Detroit jersey. Forwards: G.Howe Yzerman Lindsay Dionne Fedorov Larionov Delvecchio Bathgate Hull Abel Robitaille F.Mahovlich Bucyk Lidstrom Harvey Fetisov Kelly Park Chelios Gadsby Sawchuk Hasek What's with the Datsyuk hate? Edit: Nevermind... that's a tough list to crack. Edited August 26, 2009 by Broken 16 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hockeytown0001 7,652 Report post Posted August 26, 2009 Mark Mowers - Boyd Devereaux - Kyle Calder Cory Cross - Jamie Rivers Tim Cheveldae Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,804 Report post Posted August 26, 2009 Mark Mowers - Boyd Devereaux - Kyle Calder Cory Cross - Jamie Rivers Tim Cheveldae You can do better than that. If you're going to go that route, you have to list Yuri Butsayev, Ladislav Kohn, Maxim Kuznetsov and Yan Golubovsky. Beat that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted August 26, 2009 What's with the Datsyuk hate? Edit: Nevermind... that's a tough list to crack. Datsyuk has to do a HELL of a lot more before he cracks that one. He was the next forward I would have picked based just on Red Wings careers...but this roster he is nowhere even close. There are at least five or six forwards ahead of Dats that I can come up with offhand. Give him a few years, he probably beats some of them out. He might even make the top 13 and make this team. Same for Z. But as you said...that's a tough list to crack. I mean, what would the lines be? Lindsay/Abel/Howe Dionne/Yzerman/Bathgate Delvecchio/Larionov/Fedorov Robitaille/F.Mahovlich/Hull Bucyk That's sick. Sick sick sick. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,804 Report post Posted August 26, 2009 Datsyuk has to do a HELL of a lot more before he cracks that one. He was the next forward I would have picked based just on Red Wings careers...but this roster he is nowhere even close. There are at least five or six forwards ahead of Dats that I can come up with offhand. Give him a few years, he probably beats some of them out. He might even make the top 13 and make this team. Same for Z. But as you said...that's a tough list to crack. I mean, what would the lines be? Lindsay/Abel/Howe Dionne/Yzerman/Bathgate Delvecchio/Larionov/Fedorov Robitaille/F.Mahovlich/Hull Bucyk That's sick. Sick sick sick. Most the guys on your list were past their prime when they played for the Wings. I'd take Datsyuk over anyone on your list during their Wings tenure, except for Yzerman, Fedorov, Howe and Delvecchio. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hockeytown0001 7,652 Report post Posted August 26, 2009 You can do better than that. If you're going to go that route, you have to list Yuri Butsayev, Ladislav Kohn, Maxim Kuznetsov and Yan Golubovsky. Beat that. Darryl Laplante, Stacy Roest, Jesse Wallin, and Norm Maracle Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted August 26, 2009 You can do better than that. If you're going to go that route, you have to list Yuri Butsayev, Ladislav Kohn, Maxim Kuznetsov and Yan Golubovsky. Beat that. A line full of guys who will never be anything at the NHL level who played for the Wings recently? Philippe Audet/B.J. Young/Mark Major Patrick Boileau/Anders Myrvold Marc Lamothe Honorable mention to Ryan Barnes and Dmitri Bykov. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Broken 16 381 Report post Posted August 26, 2009 Darryl Laplante, Stacy Roest, Jesse Wallin, and Norm Maracle Stacy Roest... nice one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,804 Report post Posted August 26, 2009 Darryl Laplante, Stacy Roest, Jesse Wallin, and Norm Maracle A line full of guys who will never be anything at the NHL level who played for the Wings recently? Philippe Audet/B.J. Young/Mark Major Patrick Boileau/Anders Myrvold Marc Lamothe Honorable mention to Ryan Barnes and Dmitri Bykov. Wow, you guys are good. Bykov carried Lidstrom to a Norris in 2003, so I didn't mention him. Also, I completely forgot about Myrvold and Boileau. Likewise, I've never heard of anyone on eva's top line nor of Darryl Laplante. Who are those guys? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted August 26, 2009 Darryl Laplante, Stacy Roest, Jesse Wallin, and Norm Maracle Roest was a good player, he just got caught behind a team with ridiculously deep forwards and even deeper pockets. Right now he's tearing it up in the Swiss league; he even outscored Joe Thornton in the 04-05 season. Roest had 55 points in 41 games to Thornton's 50 in 40. He has been top-ten in points four of his six seasons since moving to the Swiss league. Roest played two years with Minnesota and, while being a strong defensive forward and one of the league's better faceoff men (above 55% both years with Minnesota) scored almost 30 points his first year there in 76 games and then 21 in 58 games; a 30-point pace both years. I've always found it odd that one of the league's fastest skaters, a solid faceoff man who could also play either wing, and was strong defensively with a decent offensive touch, was not signed by any NHL team going into the 2003-04 season after Roest came back to Detroit for one year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeftWinger 5,153 Report post Posted August 26, 2009 (edited) Going with players playing for the Wings when I've been alive - Forwards Brendan Shanahan (1997) - Steve Yzerman (2000) - Pavel Datsyuk (2009) Bob Probert (1989) - Sergei Fedorov (1994) - Brett Hull (2002) Gerard Gallant (1989) - Henrik Zetterberg (2008) - Johan Franzen (2008) Darren McCarty (1997) - Igor Larionov (1997) - Martin Lapointe (2001, without the dumb penalties) Defense Paul Coffey (1996) - Nicklas Lidstrom (2006) Vladdy Konstantinov (1997) - Niklas Kronwall (2008 playoffs) Chris Chelios (2002) - Slava Fetisov (1996) Goaltending Chris Osgood (2008 and 2009 playoffs) Dominik Hasek (2002) Yeah, he was better than Luc Robitaille, Doug Brown, Dino Ciccarelli, Slava Kozlov or Holmstrom to name a few... Man there is WAAAY too much McCarty man love on here! If we are going with recent players, lets say 1990 and higher the best line combo would be: Fedorov - Yzerman - Shanahan Konstantinov - Lidstrom Hasek But, hands down, the best REAL line combo has got to be the Russian 5. Period. Edited August 26, 2009 by LeftWinger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted August 26, 2009 Most the guys on your list were past their prime when they played for the Wings. I'd take Datsyuk over anyone on your list during their Wings tenure, except for Yzerman, Fedorov, Howe and Delvecchio. You did catch the note that that particular list was my "all-time career list of guys who at some point were Wings" Otherwise guys like Hasek, Bucyk, Robitaille, Gadsby, and Dionne would not be on there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,804 Report post Posted August 26, 2009 You did catch the note that that particular list was my "all-time career list of guys who at some point were Wings" Otherwise guys like Hasek, Bucyk, Robitaille, Gadsby, and Dionne would not be on there. I see, but it still has one major flaw which I didn't expect from you. The omission of Brendan Shanahan, a guy with over 600 goals and 1,300 points. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted August 26, 2009 I see, but it still has one major flaw which I didn't expect from you. The omission of Brendan Shanahan, a guy with over 600 goals and 1,300 points. I would put Shanahan ahead of Bucyk and maybe Robitaille... ok, definitely Robitaille. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeftWinger 5,153 Report post Posted August 26, 2009 Wow, you guys are good. Bykov carried Lidstrom to a Norris in 2003, so I didn't mention him. Also, I completely forgot about Myrvold and Boileau. Likewise, I've never heard of anyone on eva's top line nor of Darryl Laplante. Who are those guys? for this I am gonna have to go back to the 1989-90 season and have the AWESOME line of: McKegney - Federko - Shank Dean Morton - Chris Kostopolous Chevy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,804 Report post Posted August 26, 2009 I would put Shanahan ahead of Bucyk and maybe Robitaille... ok, definitely Robitaille. I'd put him ahead of anyone, except for Yzerman, Howe, Dionne and maybe Fedorov as far as forwards who played for the Wings. Not many players have 600 goals and well over 2,000 PIM's. His 1300 plus points aren't too shabby either. Don't know how you can say he wasn't better than anyone on eva's list other than Bucyk and Robitaille. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,804 Report post Posted August 26, 2009 for this I am gonna have to go back to the 1989-90 season and have the AWESOME line of: McKegney - Federko - Shank Dean Morton - Chris Kostopolous Chevy That ****** Federko always talks about how unpleasant it was living in Detroit and playing for the Wings. The reject got to play with Yzerman, Probert and Kocur, and yet he's complaining. Ungrateful bastard if you ask me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted August 26, 2009 I see, but it still has one major flaw which I didn't expect from you. The omission of Brendan Shanahan, a guy with over 600 goals and 1,300 points. I went with Bucyk over Shanahan because he has similar career stats to Shanahan, was a devastating hitter but still managed to win the Lady Byng twice. Bucyk also played in an era with much lower scoring, so Shanahan's numbers could be considered inflated somewhat when comparing the two. Robitaille completely dominated the left wing position for close to a decade. Hard to argue Shanahan (or Bucyk for that matter) ahead of him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
