LGW is Pro-Enforcer: The Results are In.

[Guest E_S_A_D]

Get over it. The Penguins are the Stanley Cup Champions. That is the title you get when you win the Stanley Cup. The Penguins won the Stanley Cup, therefore they are the Stanley Cup Champions. The Penguins outplayed us. They wanted to win more than we did. So they won. That happens. Now it happened to us.

Quit cryin' about how Pittsburgh got this, that or the other handed to them. They won. Period. To the victor go the spoils.

Scary, I agree with Electrophile on something.

[Chunkylover 26]

GM's aren't perfect? So all these guys in the league are mistakes then? FUN-NY stuff man.

Enforcers ARE a deterrent, they just aren't 100% foolproof (<-which is what you anti's like to hinge your whole argument on). Plus, they don't just stop a lot of cheap s*** from happening, they also create space for other players to work in and keep the intimidation factor at a minimum.

esteef

No one in this thread has argued against fighting.

I think the real question isn't so much "are enforcers efeective?", it's more a question of how effective they are. How many heaveyweight enforcers would Detroit have to ice to make Franzen quit diving everytime anyone gives him a dirty look?

That is precisely the question. This isn't about pro- vs. anti-fighting, it's about what is the most effective use of cap space. Is it better to have 5 minutes of Brad May, or Jason Williams on the powerplay? Time will tell, but a Williams goal will contribute more toward a win than a May fight.

Detroit's success and failure in the postseason hasn't hinged on enforcers, positively or negatively. Enforcers are entertaining, and make the fans happy if a cheapshot occurs and the victim is avenged. Sometimes they deter. Sometimes not. I am not going to lose sleep over them being in the lineup or if they aren't in the lineup, because I appreciate the sport of hockey. Hockey will be hockey whether there is fighting or not.

Good summary.

Ok, lets say, Detroit needs a Tough Guy, maybe not a flat out Enforcer, but a tough guy who isn't afraid to drop the loves and can actually win a fight once in a while. Brad May does fit that description, but if Holland would have just signed Moen and Malhotra instead of Williams and Eaves, he wouldn't have had to give May a tryout and this team would have three "tough" guys in the form of Bertuzzi, Moen and Malhotra. Toughness, IS needed on this team...

Moen isn't fast enough to play in Detroit without turning into a whipping boy. When signing a grinder, one must look at all aspects of the game, not just selfishly sign a fighter because one wants to see more fights.

[Guest E_S_A_D]

I know it's not what you meant, but your statement essentially says we need a fighter to protect us from... Sidney Crosby!?

Quite simply the most exaggerated and twisted use of someones post I've seen here in a while. Nice work.

[esteef 2,679]

Not what I said but thank you for playing.

How does a fourth liner create space for a first liner?

Does a fourth liner protect guys like Franzen from getting punched in the face too?

Was Detroit intimindated last year when an enforcer wasn't even in the lineup? En route to a second seed in the playoffs and to game 7 of the stanley cup finals? With 7.4 million invested in a complete piece of garbage?

You say I hinge my arguments on the deterrent factor, but that is essentially what the pro-enforcer crowd hinges their beliefs on. The "magical intimidation" powers that enforcers have. The "well they deter but not 100% of the time" and the maybes and hypotheticals to prove your point. At least I understand that

Detroit's success and failure in the postseason hasn't hinged on enforcers, positively or negatively. Enforcers are entertaining, and make the fans happy if a cheapshot occurs and the victim is avenged. Sometimes they deter. Sometimes not. I am not going to lose sleep over them being in the lineup or if they aren't in the lineup, because I appreciate the sport of hockey. Hockey will be hockey whether there is fighting or not.

May can play on any line, and he's really the guy we're talking about here for the Wings. So the whole "what's he gonna do from the 4th line" canned statement doesn't apply here.

There's nothing "magical" about it, intimidation is real and works. Why the hell would players try to intimidate other players if it never worked?

The entertainment argument while valid, to me only takes away from the legitimate value that fighting brings to hockey. If fighting were only about entertainment, you would only see fighters on teams that had problems getting fans' butts in seats, not on Stanley Cup winning teams and perrennial playoff teams.

esteef

[Chunkylover 26]

Only May appears to be available, and capable of that role...There were a few others available this summer, but ya know where the $$$ went

Well, if you are right, then maybe May will be signed. May did look a little better than Downey in the preseason game I saw him play. Nevertheless I don't think any useful players were available, unless their usefulness is based only on their ability to fight.

[kidish 0]

And yet Moen's scored goals in the first two games with Montreal -- so the man can play. And Montreal's system is similar to Detroit.

But what Moen added to the ice in the video I put out is just this: Ott was going to do his s*** no matter what. But instead of some star players dropping the gloves for a hug-fest (and see Pronger about ready to jump into that...he CAN'T fight), or Giguere being left to hug it out with Ott (which was happening), Moen grabs him and *****-slaps him around. And with the group on the ice at that moment -- Pronger, Getzlaf, Perry, Neidermayer, and a pissed-off Giguere (he's caused line brawls before, see early Anaheim-Calgary game on YouTube) -- there were NO other scrums or cheap shots given by the Stars.

The four players listed above (plus the goalie) AREN'T enforcers, but they are tough enough to go when the situation demands...and that limited the situation from compounding or from Ott getting away with his tomfoolery without a little pain.

The point I've been making here with Detroit is just that: someone like May can play in limited minutes on ANY line. He won't light up the lamps, but he will create space and prevent scrums from getting out of hand. Will he win you a Cup? No. But he might give some players a chance to get there without injury. Better yet is a couple players like May...that'd help Detroit during the regular season grind as well as the playoffs.

[Chunkylover 26]

Quite simply the most exaggerated and twisted use of someones post I've seen here in a while. Nice work.

Present company excluded?

[esteef 2,679]

Well, if you are right, then maybe May will be signed. May did look a little better than Downey in the preseason game I saw him play. Nevertheless I don't think any useful players were available, unless their usefulness is based only on their ability to fight.

May can also juggle and makes a mean omelet!

esteef

[Guest E_S_A_D]

May can play on any line, and he's really the guy we're talking about here for the Wings. So the whole "what's he gonna do from the 4th line" canned statement doesn't apply here.

There's nothing "magical" about it, intimidation is real and works. Why the hell would players try to intimidate other players if it never worked?

The entertainment argument while valid, to me only takes away from the legitimate value that fighting brings to hockey. If fighting were only about entertainment, you would only see fighters on teams that had problems getting fans' butts in seats, not on Stanley Cup winning teams and perrennial playoff teams.

esteef

Spot on, Esteef.

I also don't think people realize just how talented of hockey players NHL Enforcers are. "Goons" are a dime a dozen in the minor leagues, an enforcer that can keep up with the NHL game is far more talented than people here are giving them credit for.

A good example is Jacques Mailhot. Quite simply one of the toughest fighters ever to come through the IHL/ minor leagues of hockey. He got called up for a few games with the Quebec Nordiques and lasted just that... a few games. The pace, style, was too much.

Brad May would be top 5 goal scorers on the Flint Generals, for example, is my point. See Darren McCarty last year's goals in the minors, compared to when he got to the Wings; albeit temporarily.

Edited October 6, 2009 by E_S_A_D

[Doc Holiday 0]

May can play on any line, and he's really the guy we're talking about here for the Wings. So the whole "what's he gonna do from the 4th line" canned statement doesn't apply here.

I think you guys overrate May's abilities. I really don't think he could play on any line except for the fourth, let alone the first line.

There's nothing "magical" about it, intimidation is real and works. Why the hell would players try to intimidate other players if it never worked?

Having one enforcer who plays 5 minutes a night on the fourth line is not the only form of intimidation, if you find that intimidating at all.

The entertainment argument while valid, to me only takes away from the legitimate value that fighting brings to hockey. If fighting were only about entertainment, you would only see fighters on teams that had problems getting fans' butts in seats, not on Stanley Cup winning teams and perrennial playoff teams.

Just because you sell out the rink doesn't mean you couldn't use more business.

If you ask any businessman if he would want to take the chance at getting a larger amount of profit with a small amount of risk, very few would say "no thanks, I'm content with what I have."

Edited October 6, 2009 by Doc Holiday

[mjlegend 155]

Kimbo Slice prolly won't be doing much, sign him...

This.

[Guest E_S_A_D]

I really dislike the idiotic arguments of 'sign Holyfield, Slice, Mayweather, ____ insert name here that is a pro fighter_____. Those guys would not last one second on skates, much like Eric Godard would not last one second in the Octagon. You really make the argument poor in that sense, it's apples and oranges.

You can take the biggest 'goon' in the NHL, and put him in minor league and watch him excel. Not AAA.

[Chunkylover 26]

The four players listed above (plus the goalie) AREN'T enforcers, but they are tough enough to go when the situation demands...and that limited the situation from compounding or from Ott getting away with his tomfoolery without a little pain.

But that "little pain" didn't do anything. Travis Moen fighting Steve Ott had no net effect. I'm not against him fighting, I'm just not willing to exaggerate the importance of what he did. Players like Steve Ott consider themselves effective when they are eliciting that kind of response, so who really won in that case?

[Doc Holiday 0]

I really dislike the idiotic arguments of 'sign Holyfield, Slice, Mayweather, ____ insert name here that is a pro fighter_____. Those guys would not last one second on skates, much like Eric Godard would not last one second in the Octagon. You really make the argument poor in that sense, it's apples and oranges.

You can take the biggest 'goon' in the NHL, and put him in minor league and watch him excel. Not AAA.

I think that Mayweather would be able to hold his own on skates, and considering his boxing background, he'd be the toughest enforcer in the NHL!

[e_prime 1,936]

Nothing against Downey, but I'd much rather have May...Moen, Malhotra, and Neil were all available; all are capable of playing on Detroit's 3rd/4th lines.

Neil priced himself out of a Wings uni. $2 million a year for the next four years.

He wanted a long term deal with Ottawa, he got it.

I think there was little chance the Wings were gonna get him.

Edit: clarity

Edited October 6, 2009 by e_prime

[Guest E_S_A_D]

But that "little pain" didn't do anything. Travis Moen fighting Steve Ott had no net effect. I'm not against him fighting, I'm just not willing to exaggerate the importance of what he did. Players like Steve Ott consider themselves effective when they are eliciting that kind of response, so who really won in that case?

Arghhh... some people just don't get it. We all think that NHL players magically appeared from local rinks or fight rings to play. You do realize Steve Ott's immense talent right? This guy consistently had over 80 points in Juniors...

[Doc Holiday 0]

Arghhh... some people just don't get it. We all think that NHL players magically appeared from local rinks or fight rings to play. You do realize Steve Ott's immense talent right? This guy consistently had over 80 points in Juniors...

Success in juniors isn't an indicator of how well you will do in the NHL.

No one doubts that goons and enforcers can play the sport of hockey. We are talking about compared to NHL caliber players.

[esteef 2,679]

I think you guys overrate May's abilities. I really don't think he could play on any line except for the fourth, let alone the first line.

Having one enforcer who plays 5 minutes a night on the fourth line is not the only form of intimidation, if you find that intimidating at all.

Ah but see, he won't be on the top line to score, that's what the "skill" guys are for. He makes sure nobody gets taken advantage of. And it ain't like Babs has to keep them together for any stretch of time, hell he could put May out there for a shift just to do some damage and have the "scorers" shoot through the holes! (basically his role with the Perry/Getzlaf line which he by no means played with all the time).

The definition of enforcer is what I think this board struggles to agree on. If May were signed, he would be our "enforcer" even though he can play more than five minutes a night and isn't a knuckle-dragger on skates.

esteef

Edited October 6, 2009 by esteef

[Chunkylover 26]

May can also juggle and makes a mean omelet!

esteef

Well in that case....

Spot on, Esteef.

I also don't think people realize just how talented of hockey players NHL Enforcers are. "Goons" are a dime a dozen in the minor leagues, an enforcer that can keep up with the NHL game is far more talented than people here are giving them credit for.

A good example is Jacques Mailhot. Quite simply one of the toughest fighters ever to come through the IHL/ minor leagues of hockey. He got called up for a few games with the Quebec Nordiques and lasted just that... a few games. The pace, style, was too much.

Brad May would be top 5 goal scorers on the Flint Generals, for example, is my point. See Darren McCarty last year's goals in the minors, compared to when he got to the Wings; albeit temporarily.

I'm certainly not trying to disparage anyone who fits into your definition of an enforcer. Brett Lebda is a better hockey player than anyone on these boards, but that doesn't mean he should have a place on the roster.

What your statement shows is that having a truly useful scrapper is very rare. So rare that it shouldn't be a surprise that the Wings don't have one, and haven't since Probert, Kocur, and to a much lesser extent McCarty.

[Guest E_S_A_D]

Success in juniors isn't an indicator of how well you will do in the NHL.

No one doubts that goons and enforcers can play the sport of hockey. We are talking about compared to NHL caliber players.

[kidish 0]

But that "little pain" didn't do anything. Travis Moen fighting Steve Ott had no net effect. I'm not against him fighting, I'm just not willing to exaggerate the importance of what he did. Players like Steve Ott consider themselves effective when they are eliciting that kind of response, so who really won in that case?

Moen, Ott was suspended for eye gouging.

[Doc Holiday 0]

Ah but see, he won't be on the top line to score, that's what the "skill" guys are for. He makes sure nobody gets taken advantage of. And it ain't like Babs has to keep them together for any stretch of time, hell he could put May out there just to do some damage and have the "scorers" shoot through the holes! (basically his role with the Perry/Getzlaf line which he by no means played with all the time).

The definition of enforcer is what I think this board struggles to agree on. If May were signed, he would be our "enforcer" even though he can play more than five minutes a night and isn't a knuckle-dragger on skates.

esteef

And I would support May on the team 100% to do his job and f*** s*** up. Including players' faces.

ESAD: Excellent retort.

[kidish 0]

Ah but see, he won't be on the top line to score, that's what the "skill" guys are for. He makes sure nobody gets taken advantage of. And it ain't like Babs has to keep them together for any stretch of time, hell he could put May out there just to do some damage and have the "scorers" shoot through the holes! (basically his role with the Perry/Getzlaf line which he by no means played with all the time).

The definition of enforcer is what I think this board struggles to agree on. If May were signed, he would be our "enforcer" even though he can play more than five minutes a night and isn't a knuckle-dragger on skates.

esteef

This.

[Chunkylover 26]

Arghhh... some people just don't get it. We all think that NHL players magically appeared from local rinks or fight rings to play. You do realize Steve Ott's immense talent right? This guy consistently had over 80 points in Juniors...

Steve Ott is actually the one "enforcer", "grinder", "fighter", whatever the preferred term, that I would love to have on the Wings because he can actually play hockey in between fighting majors. I think his contract is up next year....

[mjlegend 155]

I really dislike the idiotic arguments of 'sign Holyfield, Slice, Mayweather, ____ insert name here that is a pro fighter_____. Those guys would not last one second on skates, much like Eric Godard would not last one second in the Octagon. You really make the argument poor in that sense, it's apples and oranges.

You can take the biggest 'goon' in the NHL, and put him in minor league and watch him excel. Not AAA.

On skates or not, Slice would destroy any of your favorite NHL fighters and have enough stamina left over to dance with their girlfriends for the rest of the night.

You just don't like fighting.