LGW is Pro-Enforcer: The Results are In.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Have I mentioned that this man is currently unemployed?

Just something to think about.

[Doc Holiday 0]

I can preface it as "Genius Doc Holiday Quote"?

And to think you could answer a question without acting like a complete jackass.

[Doc Holiday 0]

Food analogy here; I see a legit tuff guy, or a handful of guys who can play, and fight more or less as side dishes while the skill guys are the meat, and potatos of each, and every team...Just like the Wings in the late 90's; the Russian 5 were the main course with the Grind Line as the side salad - with Kocur being the big tomato on top of that salad

I hate salads.

Maybe that's why I don't think enforcers will make or break a team?

[Broken 16 381]

Would you rather bully someone who has protection or someone who doesn't have protection?

It's a no brainer. Of course teams are going to act tougher against the Wings than against the Flyers or Maple Leafs. It's always easy to play rough when you don't have to answer to anyone for it. You never played hockey with this Wings team, so you don't know anything about it either.

Scenario A- Player takes liberties against an opponents star player and gets away scott free.

Result- Cheapshot delivered.

Scenario B- Player takes liberties against an opponents star player and gets beat up by a tough guy.

Result- Cheapshot delivered, with a high probability of the enforcer being hit with an instigator penalty for retaliation.

Great plan... especially against our PK. Thanks, but no thanks. You guys need to move on from the 90's.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Broken 16

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I hate salads.

Maybe that's why I don't think enforcers will make or break a team?

Or maybe you were beat up by an enforcer once when you played junior hockey.

After that, you were deterred from ever running the other team's top players.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Scenario A- Player takes liberties against an opponents star player and gets away scott free.

Result- Cheapshot delivered.

Scenario B- Player takes liberties against an opponents star player and gets beat up by a tough guy.

Result- Cheapshot delivered, with a high probability of the enforcer being hit with an instigator penalty for retaliation.

Great plan... especially against our PK. Thanks, but no thanks. You guys need to move on from the 90's.

Scenario B is a lot less likely to happen with a tough guy as opposed to not having one. That's what I meant in my post by deterrence.

Why do you think teams dress enforcers? Just to entertain? I don't think so, but it sounds like you do from your posts.

[Broken 16 381]

Scenario B is a lot less likely to happen with a tough guy as opposed to not having one. That's what I meant in my post by deterrence.

Why do you think teams dress enforcers? Just to entertain? I don't think so, but it sounds like you do from your posts.

In all honesty, I think that you are so spoiled by the dominance of this team that you are actually bored by it. The grittiest, nastiest team in the past 10 years has been the Ducks and they've won one Cup by BARELY squeaking by the Wings.

How many 'enforcers' are out of a job because they can't crack a teams depth chart? Jesus... The Yotes even dumped Downey.

Every team, even the Wings, are walking a razors edge with what kind of roster they carry. Concessions have to be made somewhere. The Wings have decided that skill, puck possession, face-offs and passing are the premium. They are obviously skimping on enforcers and goaltending.

I'm sure they would love to have a team full of gritty, skilled, tough, fast, two way players but they are shackled by reality.

Hopefully, once some of the slug contracts expire we can pick up a handful of Moens to compliment the Z's and D's. Until then, try and enjoy your teams road to another playoff appearance for one more season.

[Guest E_S_A_D]

You've impressed me, Skywalkers. 15 pages and counting...

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

In all honesty, I think that you are so spoiled by the dominance of this team that you are actually bored by it. The grittiest, nastiest team in the past 10 years has been the Ducks and they've won one Cup by BARELY squeaking by the Wings.

How many 'enforcers' are out of a job because they can't crack a teams depth chart? Jesus... The Yotes even dumped Downey.

Every team, even the Wings, are walking a razors edge with what kind of roster they carry. Concessions have to be made somewhere. The Wings have decided that skill, puck possession, face-offs and passing are the premium. They are obviously skimping on enforcers and goaltending.

I'm sure they would love to have a team full of gritty, skilled, tough, fast, two way players but they are shackled by reality.

Hopefully, once some of the slug contracts expire we can pick up a handful of Moens to compliment the Z's and D's. Until then, try and enjoy your teams road to another playoff appearance for one more season.

How about having a balanced team for a change? That would have been nice to see. Like I said when this started, Moen, Neil and Grier were available. Holland should have made a push to sign at least one of those players. Our team would be better now with a guy like that on the roster. Williams and Eaves don't add to our balance. They just make us more one-dimensional. We have the worst checking line in the NHL right now in terms of guys who can hit and battle for pucks.

[Broken 16 381]

Scenario C - even though the tuff guy sits in the sin bin for 2 minutes; his teammates appreciate his efforts thus enhances camaradarie, and team bonding - something that's never over rated.

Last time I checked - hockey really hasn't changed all that much from those days with the exception of a few more obstruction calls made during the regular season. The playoffs these past few years remind me quite a bit of what they were like 10 years ago.

Like I said to GMR, I just think you are actually bored watching a perennial winner hit the ice season after season. In a perfect world, sure, Scenario C sounds good. Unfortunately, the world and the league are far from perfect. Something has to give in the salary cap era. Unfortunately for you and a few others, the Wings aren't putting a premium on slugs that are good at punching people in the face.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Like I said to GMR, I just think you are actually bored watching a perennial winner hit the ice season after season. In a perfect world, sure, Scenario C sounds good. Unfortunately, the world and the league are far from perfect. Something has to give in the salary cap era. Unfortunately for you and a few others, the Wings aren't putting a premium on slugs that are good at punching people in the face.

Adding one tough guy on the 4th line doesn't result in something having to give. Unless you think of Maltby, Eaves or Kopecky being something.

You're exaggerating. We're just talking about adding one tough guy, and not a team full of goons. That would be fun, but not what's being advocated here.

[Broken 16 381]

How about having a balanced team for a change? That would have been nice to see. Like I said when this started, Moen, Neil and Grier were available. Holland should have made a push to sign at least one of those players. Our team would be better now with a guy like that on the roster. Williams and Eaves don't add to our balance. They just make us more one-dimensional. We have the worst checking line in the NHL right now in terms of guys who can hit and battle for pucks.

How do you know that Holland didn't make a hard push for those guys? You keep talking like you are a fly on Hollands wall. Eaves, Williams and Bert are nothing more than a stop-dead measure until next season. How much more obvious could this be? This is the Detroit equivalent of a rebuilding season, try and enjoy it.

[Broken 16 381]

Adding one tough guy on the 4th line doesn't result in something having to give. Unless you think of Maltby, Eaves or Kopecky being something.

You're exaggerating. We're just talking about adding one tough guy, and not a team full of goons. That would be fun, but not what's being advocated here.

Kopecky? See, you are trapped in the past. I knew it. Heh.

So what do you think is the most realistic scenario?

A) Holland and Co. would love to have a tough guy to help protect their players but they can't find one with the proper price/skillset/contract length/etc.

B) Holland and Co. hate fighters and refuse to employ them.

Believe me, I'm sure Holland would love to have a top hat that he can pull perfect players from.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Broken 16

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

How do you know that Holland didn't make a hard push for those guys? You keep talking like you are a fly on Hollands wall. Eaves, Williams and Bert are nothing more than a stop-dead measure until next season. How much more obvious could this be? This is the Detroit equivalent of a rebuilding season, try and enjoy it.

If he's as great aa GM as he once was, he'd be able to sign at least one of those players. Hossa took a freaking paycut to play here. You're telling me one of those guys wouldn't love to play for the Cup? Those players weren't exactly in high demand, so Holland could have made it happen. Instead, he landed us some players that we don't really need in Williams and Eaves.

Kopecky? See, you are trapped in the past. I knew it. Heh.

So what do you think is the most realistic scenario?

A) Holland and Co. would love to have a tough guy to help protect their players but they can't find one with the proper price/skillset/contract length/etc.

B) Holland and Co. hate fighters and refuse to employ them.

B is more likely than A.

I'd hate to think that Holland has become so incompetent for A to be the answer. There were enough gritty players out there that at least one of them could have been had.

[Broken 16 381]

Rumors were ripe with Williams, and Bertuzzi - unless you were under a rock just about everyone here knew of these signing before they were made official. Eaves was a bit of a surprise though.

As GMR said - having Moen, and Malhotra wouldn't send this team into a tail-spin as you would like to think; even better if it meant we didn't have to see Maltby waste roster space, and/or not signing Eaves whom could potentially be spending alot of time in the press box.

Some added muscle to this team doesn't = the sky falling chicken little

First off, I never said anything about a tailspin. Ever. Second, of course rumors were ripe. They were the only players that would agree to a one year deal for 1.something.

Learn to live with Maltby for one more season. He's earned it. He deserves to be able to play his contract out despite your desire to just 'cut him'. What exactly do you propose they do with Maltby? Force him to quit. Sit him in the press box after he has contributed to every Cup the Wings have won in the past 12 years?

This isn't a fantasy team.

[Broken 16 381]

If he's as great aa GM as he once was, he'd be able to sign at least one of those players. Hossa took a freaking paycut to play here. You're telling me one of those guys wouldn't love to play for the Cup? Those players weren't exactly in high demand, so Holland could have made it happen. Instead, he landed us some players that we don't really need in Williams and Eaves.

Got it... Holland is lazy and he sucks. (pretty sure I owe somebody a nickel for saying that)

B is more likely than A.

I'd hate to think that Holland has become so incompetent for A to be the answer. There were enough gritty players out there that at least one of them could have been had.

What team do you watch? Many Wings, including their two best forwards are gritty. The Wings have plenty of gritty players. Enough for Pronger himself to say that the Wings team toughness is vastly underrated. What we don't have is someone who will go out and beat someone up and take a fighting major. This thread is not about grit. It's about an enforcer (read the title).

[kook_10 1,705]

Scenario C - even though the tuff guy sits in the sin bin for 2 minutes; his teammates appreciate his efforts thus enhances camaradarie, and team bonding - something that's never over rated.

Last time I checked - hockey really hasn't changed all that much from those days with the exception of a few more obstruction calls made during the regular season. The playoffs these past few years remind me quite a bit of what they were like 10 years ago.

Scenario D - enforcer pairs up with the opponent's enforcer and both sit for 5. both teams are riled from the ratcheted up physical play. the opposing team, who are top-to-bottom tougher than the Wings, lay the body and the lumber on the remaining Wings weaklings while the enforcers watch.

An enforcer would engage their opponents in a physical game and draw more heat onto the players who don't want it. By heat I'm not even talking about cheapshots - just hard play. By not getting an enforcer, the Wings are opting to not engage in a physical game at all. It makes sense given the concentration of money on players who would not benefit from 82 games of punishment. Babcock understood last year that in the runup to the playoffs there would be more physical play like it or not. The Wings then stepped up their own physical play and actually outhit most of their opponents and called up D-Mac for a little protection. I don't mind an enforcer, but I think Babcock got it right. They just don't have the personnel to play 82 physical games before any playoffs. We will probably see May mostly stay down in Grand rapids until the Olympics.

Edited October 8, 2009 by kook_10

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Got it... Holland is lazy and he sucks. (pretty sure I owe somebody a nickel for saying that)

What team do you watch? Many Wings, including their two best forwards are gritty. The Wings have plenty of gritty players. Enough for Pronger himself to say that the Wings team toughness is vastly underrated. What we don't have is someone who will go out and beat someone up and take a fighting major. This thread is not about grit. It's about an enforcer (read the title).

It's been made into an enforcer thread and a grit thread.

Moen, Neil and Grier aren't enforcers. Hell, Grier doesn't even fight. However, we'd be a tougher team with one of those guys on the roster, and none of them lack skill as is often stereotyped with tough players around here.

And we don't have plenty of gritty players. On our 3rd and 4th line, only Helm and Abdelkalder play with any grit.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Scenario D - enforcer pairs up with the opponent's enforcer and both sit for 5. both teams are riled from the ratcheted up physical play. the opposing team, who are top-to-bottom tougher than the Wings, lay the body and the lumber on the remaining Wings weaklings while the enforcers watch.

An enforcer would engage their opponents in a physical game and draw more heat onto the players who don't want it. By heat I'm not even talking about cheapshots - just hard play. By not getting an enforcer, the Wings are opting to not engage in a physical game at all. It makes sense given the concentration of money on players who would not benefit from 82 games of punishment. Babcock understood last year that in the runup to the playoffs there would be more physical play like it or not. The Wings then stepped up their own physical play and actually outhit most of their opponents and called up D-Mac for a little protection. I don't mind an enforcer, but I think Babcock got it right. They just don't have the personnel to play 82 physical games before any playoffs. We will probably see May mostly stay down in Grand rapids until the Olympics.

WTF?

Teams run the Wings all the time. Nobody is laying off of us just because we don't dress a tough guy.

It sounds like you're saying that enforcers not only don't deter, but also draw more cheapshots against their teammates. I guess every team that has ever dressed an enforcer for deterrence was making a mistake. You've just solved the entire evolution of hockey toughness. Congratulations.

[Broken 16 381]

It's been made into an enforcer thread and a grit thread.

Moen, Neil and Grier aren't enforcers. Hell, Grier doesn't even fight. However, we'd be a tougher team with one of those guys on the roster, and none of them lack skill as is often stereotyped with tough players around here.

And we don't have plenty of gritty players. On our 3rd and 4th line, only Helm and Abdelkalder play with any grit.

If your definition of grit is an overhand right, then no we don't have any grit. Hate to break it to you, but that's not grit. Grit is players that hit to make a play, muck in the corners, go into dirty areas, and make open ice hits without compromising defensive responsibility and the Wings have plenty of those.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Broken 16

[Doc Holiday 0]

Or maybe you were beat up by an enforcer once when you played junior hockey.

After that, you were deterred from ever running the other team's top players.

I had my head kicked in by a guy who had probably 40 pounds on me. After a fight I started.

Does that count?

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

If your definition of grit is an overhand right, then no we don't have any grit.

Don't exaggerate again.

Helm and Abdelkalder don't have any overhand right. My definition is the same as everyone else's.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I had my head kicked in by a guy who had probably 40 pounds on me. After a fight I started.

Does that count?

I'm sure you did better than Kopecky against Beauchemin.

[Broken 16 381]

Don't exaggerate again.

Helm and Abdelkalder don't have any overhand right. My definition is the same as everyone else's.

Ok... So Datsyuk isn't a gritty player? Dude plays the body more than anybody on the team. Just because blood isn't drawn doesn't make it any less gritty.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Ok... So Datsyuk isn't a gritty player? Dude plays the body more than anybody on the team. Just because blood isn't drawn doesn't make it any less gritty.

Datsyuk isn't a 3rd and 4th liner. I don't have a problem with the top 6 being all skill, but I want to see some more grit on the bottom lines. Our bottom lines have few guys that even know how to throw a bodycheck. Maltby and Draper used to do it, but they don't now.