• Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

11iscoming

a partner for pasha and the mule

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

If Helm got to play with Datsyuk and Zetterberg 15 minutes a game and on the power play, you really don't think he could score 80 points? I guess I might be placing too much faith in Helm. I just know that the crowd went nuts every time Helm was on the ice the last two playoff seasons. And there was a reason for it. He was making awesome plays.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttrWFt-SabQ...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHoNu5yo-Rw...feature=related

LISTEN TO THE CROWD AND ANNOUNCERS ON THE THIRD LINK.

Why don't people want this type of play on Zetterberg and Datsyuk's line? WHY? I can't understand it for the life of me. Why do people want to see a slow, ineffective, one dimensional sissy skating with the two best players on the team when they could have someone like Darren Helm making plays to open up ice for Pavs and Z? If Babcock doesn't recognize this, then he's an idiot.

If Helm could score 80 points on a line with Dats and Z then literally anyone in the NHL could. Helm's hand are below average as far as NHL players go. His 'scoring upside' is tiny. If you project his career we'd be looking at somewhere around 25-35 points as his peak output. He's basically Draper with a little less scoring upside (believe it or not Draper was an ok goal scorer in his prime). I know people like to say it's the other way around, but those people are forgetting Draper's pre-lockout goal totals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Holmstrom is NOT a better puck passer, puck handler, shooter, or anything better than Helm. That's hogwash. Holmstrom gets to play with better players. That's all there is to it. And I'd like to see that changed. Holmstrom doesn't make Zetterberg and Datsyuk better. I think Helm could.

Yes he is. Holmer is the best puck deflector and net front presence in the entire NHL. You seriously underestimate how good he is at deflecting incoming shots at high speed (all the while being hit by defensemen and slashed by the goalie).

EDIT:

If your theory about Holmer held true every team would have an equally effective screening/deflecting player as the Wings. And yet the only guy in the league that's in the same class as Holmer is Ryan Smyth.

Edited by Drake_Marcus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Holmstrom is NOT a better puck passer, puck handler, shooter, or anything better than Helm. That's hogwash. Holmstrom gets to play with better players. That's all there is to it. And I'd like to see that changed. Holmstrom doesn't make Zetterberg and Datsyuk better. I think Helm could.

wow, i don't what your watching but helm is not better than holmstrom at anything except speed... Holmstrom is a MUCH better passer, puck handler, and has a better shot... plus he is a proven player... Before Holmstrom got hurt in the 2007 playoffs, he was in the running for the Con Smyth if we would have won! he had a legit chance ... Helm is not proven... the only rookie that could possibly make Zetterberg and Datsyuk better players is Leino, not Helm, and thats becaues he IS a scorer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Is that really any different than having him on our current 2nd line?

Not much. Bert is a 3rd or 4th line guy. He used to be 1st or 2nd but those days are gone. I don't think it's a good idea to put a guy that was -13 last year on the first or second line. Do you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Not much. Bert is a 3rd or 4th line guy. He used to be 1st or 2nd but those days are gone. I don't think it's a good idea to put a guy that was -13 last year on the first or second line. Do you?

Iginla was -1 on the same team. It's not like Bertuzzi was -13 on the Wing's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That's just it...there are no 'decreased stats', at least not significantly. 08 playoffs he had 4g, 8a in 21 games. Better than last year, but so were a lot of players. If you look at anything other than the most recent playoff run, his numbers are very close to the best he's ever done.

Beyond the numbers, I think people have fooled themselves into thinking Homer used to be some all-star caliber player, when in fact he's never been more than the rather slow, defensively weak, one-dimentional role player that he still is. His board work and passing have always been and still are average. He has only ever done one thing very well, it just happens that it's something that compliments the playstyle of our top lines very well. And by any metric you can think of, he still does that one thing very well, when he's healthy. And when he's not healthy, who cares, since he's out of the lineup anyway and his detractors get their wish for someone new in his spot...

Huh? Where did you come up with that? Homer is a career +38 in the regular season and +23 in the playoffs. He has had 6 straight years since his last - year. And +/- doesn't count on the powerplay when he scored many of his goals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Huh? Where did you come up with that? Homer is a career +38 in the regular season and +23 in the playoffs. He has had 6 straight years since his last - year. And +/- doesn't count on the powerplay when he scored many of his goals.

He plays with the best defensive center and the best defenseman in the league practically every shift. If you think Holmstrom in instrumental in Datsyuk and Lidstrom's success then I don't know what to say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Iginla was -1 on the same team. It's not like Bertuzzi was -13 on the Wing's.

You should look at the facts. Bert had the WORST +/- on the entire team 32nd out of 32 guys. And there were 6 guys on the team that were better than +10

Conroy +20

Bourque +18

Glencross +14

Sarich +12

Lombardi +11

Regher +10

He didn't have a bad +/- because of the team he was on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
He plays with the best defensive center and the best defenseman in the league practically every shift. If you think Holmstrom in instrumental in Datsyuk and Lidstrom's success then I don't know what to say.

Oh for Christ's sake. Anything that he does well is because of somebody else and anything that he doesn't do well is his fault.

Talk about a biased opinion...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You should look at the facts. Bert had the WORST +/- on the entire team 32nd out of 32 guys. And there were 6 guys on the team that were better than +10

Conroy +20

Bourque +18

Glencross +14

Sarich +12

Lombardi +11

Regher +10

He didn't have a bad +/- because of the team he was on.

He played with Iginla -1, and David Moss -4. I'm by no means saying he is a defensive god. But Holland got him to play in the top 6 no matter what fans on a forum think is right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Oh for Christ's sake. Anything that he does well is because of somebody else and anything that he doesn't do well is his fault.

Talk about a biased opinion...

Things Holmstrom does well.

+Front net presence.

I don't see how I'm biased. I'm watching hockey and saying what I see. Fact is the first line has been limited in even strength play. They cannot hold offensive possession, and I'm going to say what I think is the problem. Holmstrom has never been known for his defensive play, and was a big concern ever since he started with Bowman. He cannot skate well, therefore he cannot forecheck or back check well. And he isn't getting any faster.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
He played with Iginla -1, and David Moss -4. I'm by no means saying he is a defensive god. But Holland got him to play in the top 6 no matter what fans on a forum think is right.

Umm ... isn't the same true of Holmstrom? Just based on ... oh ... the last how many years?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Things Holmstrom does well.

+Front net presence.

I don't see how I'm biased. I'm watching hockey and saying what I see. Fact is the first line has been limited in even strength play. They cannot hold offensive possession, and I'm going to say what I think is the problem. Holmstrom has never been known for his defensive play, and was a big concern ever since he started with Bowman. He cannot skate well, therefore he cannot forecheck or back check well. And he isn't getting any faster.

And isn't this also pretty much true of Bert?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bertuzzi's line isn't the one not producing.

Okay, but that's not really the point. Pretty much every reason you're giving for why Homer shouldn't be on the 1st line applies to Bert as well. The performance of the lines over 2 games is hardly evidence of anything, certainly not individual abilities.

Not to mention that Bert has 1 assist and is -1, Homer has 1 goal and is even.

Edited by lets go pavel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Okay, but that's not really the point. Pretty much every reason you're giving for why Homer shouldn't be on the 1st line applies to Bert as well. The performance of the lines over 2 games is hardly evidence of anything, certainly not individual abilities.

Except Bertuzzi is a much better skater. Not too mention Franzen/Datsyuk should out score Zetterberg/Cleary. I agree it's early, but the first line just created nothing the first game except for a face off win which put Holmstrom in perfect position for the screen.

All I'm saying we need to get the first line going, they did not have the scoring chances. I'm also not saying Bertuzzi should be on the first line, I suppose I should say my lines.

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Cleary

Bertuzzi-Flip-Franzen

Williams-Helm-Leino

Holmstrom-Draper-Eaves/Abby/Maltby

Switch Bertuzzi/Leino is up to the coach depending on what's needed vs. the given team

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
LISTEN TO THE CROWD AND ANNOUNCERS ON THE THIRD LINK.

Why don't people want this type of play on Zetterberg and Datsyuk's line? WHY? I can't understand it for the life of me. Why do people want to see a slow, ineffective, one dimensional sissy skating with the two best players on the team when they could have someone like Darren Helm making plays to open up ice for Pavs and Z? If Babcock doesn't recognize this, then he's an idiot.

OMG, like I remember back in the 2002 playoffs when Maltby was blocking like 10 shots in a row and the announcers and the crowd were just going crazy!! Why wouldn't people want Maltby on the first line??!!! I just don't understand it! I mean the crowd was going crazy for him!! OMG!!

Oh, yes. Yes indeed....Babcock is the idiot here. :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes he is. Holmer is the best puck deflector and net front presence in the entire NHL. You seriously underestimate how good he is at deflecting incoming shots at high speed (all the while being hit by defensemen and slashed by the goalie).

EDIT:

If your theory about Holmer held true every team would have an equally effective screening/deflecting player as the Wings. And yet the only guy in the league that's in the same class as Holmer is Ryan Smyth.

There's a reason most teams DO NOT value this "skill". Holmstrom is not valueable to the Wings anymore. Not one team in the NHL would trade for him, even if his salary was league minimum. He's a has been.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There's a reason most teams DO NOT value this "skill". Holmstrom is not valueable to the Wings anymore. Not one team in the NHL would trade for him, even if his salary was league minimum. He's a has been.

Plenty of teams won't trade for players in their last year or two or three in their career, regardless of the sport.

Seriously man, you must stop.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
He plays with the best defensive center and the best defenseman in the league practically every shift. If you think Holmstrom in instrumental in Datsyuk and Lidstrom's success then I don't know what to say.

Exactly. People act like Holmstrom is making the Norris trophy winner, the Selke trophy winner, and the Conn Smythe trophy winner better players. Ha! I will give you that Holmstrom served a purpose IN THE PAST. I'm not trying to discredit what he has done IN THE PAST. All I'm saying is that he's NOT doing what he did in the past. He's washed up. Time to demote his ass and move on to our youth, AKA Darren Helm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Exactly. People act like Holmstrom is making the Norris trophy winner, the Selke trophy winner, and the Conn Smythe trophy winner better players. Ha! I will give you that Holmstrom served a purpose IN THE PAST. I'm not trying to discredit what he has done IN THE PAST. All I'm saying is that he's NOT doing what he did in the past. He's washed up. Time to demote his ass and move on to our youth, AKA Darren Helm.

Nobody is even close to acting or saying this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
OMG, like I remember back in the 2002 playoffs when Maltby was blocking like 10 shots in a row and the announcers and the crowd were just going crazy!! Why wouldn't people want Maltby on the first line??!!! I just don't understand it! I mean the crowd was going crazy for him!! OMG!!

Oh, yes. Yes indeed....Babcock is the idiot here. :rolleyes:

Bowman gave that line a lot of time when they were in their primes. Maltby and Drapes saw a regular shift and plenty of PK time. I do remember the crowds cheering for other players, but I can't remember the crowd being as loud and excited as it has been for Helm the last two years. He's got something special. Why people want to downplay it on here is beyond me. The HHO is really tough to get rid of, I guess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bowman gave that line a lot of time when they were in their primes. Maltby and Drapes saw a regular shift and plenty of PK time. I do remember the crowds cheering for other players, but I can't remember the crowd being as loud and excited as it has been for Helm the last two years. He's got something special. Why people want to downplay it on here is beyond me. The HHO is really tough to get rid of, I guess.

Nobody is downplaying anything. We just realize that Helm right now is a 3rd/4th line guy and that Holmstrom's game has been more suited for a 1st/2nd line during his career and still is in certain aspects of the game, moreso offensive roles. Nobody here has a HHO, you seem to have a Helm Hard On though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

everything said about homers qualities is absolutely correct, but regarding his play in the first two games, it is all said in the wrong tense.....it must say "....was...." and no longer "...is...."

maybe he can turn around and he had just 2 bad games, than i´have no problem with him on the first line, but it sure did not look like it´s going to happen.

time will tell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nobody is even close to acting or saying this.

Well, we've got this argument:

Holmstrom has better hands than Helm.

Really, Helm scored 4 goals on the 4th line and Holmstrom scored 2 goals on the 1st line and power play last playoffs.

REJECTED.

Holmstrom is a better passer than Helm.

Type in "Holmstrom Pass" into youtube or TRY to find a nice pass from Holmstrom on video somewhere.

REJECTED. Neither of them are known for their passing.

Holmstrom's bigger than Darren Helm.

ACCEPTED. Because of this, he's also slower, easier to play defense against, and a bigger euro ***** than he'd be if he lost some weight.

Darren Helm - Faster, Tougher, more aggressive, BETTER.

Enough said. This is a stupid argument. Anyone who thinks that Darren Helm should play behind Tomas Holmstrom at this point in their respective careers is just NOT WATCHING. That's all there is to it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now