Rate Wings players

[Theophany 110]

Reference Holmstrom's numbers from three years ago and justify his presence on the top line. Its a meaningless argument. Teams don't sign players based on past performance.

Meaningless association between Lids and Homer; Homer sits on top of a goalie every night and takes endless abuse for it, while Lids doesn't get much physical contact that he doesn't initiate. That's the main cause of decline in the NHL, and with Lidstrom's style of play, he'll be good for a bit yet.

Maybe not for top-pairing minutes, but he should be good for 20 a night.

[Motown4013 350]

1. Zetterberg

2. Ericsson

3. Lids

4. Ozzie

5. Dats

6. Flip

7. Helm

8. Leino

9. Lilja

10. Stuart

I did a top 10 list because I havent seen enough of Eaves/ Meech/ Abbie to put a value on what they are to the team as of yet. That is also why Leino is so low. 15 games is not enough to totally evaluate a player...he should be higher but I want to see more.

[Radic 0]

Meaningless association between Lids and Homer; Homer sits on top of a goalie every night and takes endless abuse for it, while Lids doesn't get much physical contact that he doesn't initiate. That's the main cause of decline in the NHL, and with Lidstrom's style of play, he'll be good for a bit yet.

Maybe not for top-pairing minutes, but he should be good for 20 a night.

That isn't your argument at all. You've said that:

1. Lidstrom is the best defenseman in the NHL. You referenced past performance.

2. Any team would sign Lidstrom to a five year deal at his current age.

Now you're backing off and saying that hes declining with age. Which if is the case, its very easy to suggest that hes not the best defenseman in the league. Unless you're one of the blatant homers who honestly believed that Lidstrom was leaps and bounds ahead of Neidermeyer and Pronger and is just staring to come back down to Earth. If that is the case, than this argument is over.

Edited October 10, 2009 by Radic

[Motown4013 350]

Teams don't sign players based on past performance.

Really? Thats why Dipiero was offered the best contract ever offered to a goalie and Bryan Mc Cabe had a 6 million $ contract after 1 good year. Lets talk Brad Richards, Jeff Finger, Brian Campell....overpaid and Its done all the time.

Lids is worth EVERY cent we pay him and any team is a better team with him on it. Most guys are making more than they should BASED on previous elevated performance.

[Theophany 110]

That isn't your argument at all. You've said that:

1. Lidstrom is the best defenseman in the NHL. You referenced past performance.

2. Any team would sign Lidstrom to a five year deal at his current age.

Now you're backing off and saying that hes declining with age. Which if is the case, its very easy to suggest that hes not the best defenseman in the league. Unless you're one of the blatant homers who honestly believed that Lidstrom was leaps and bounds ahead of Neidermeyer and Pronger and is just staring to come back down to Earth. If that is the case, than this argument is over.

I never said he's declining with age, though it's obvious that people decline with age; just not to the point you think so.

Need to get your reading comprehension working, bro.

[Finnish Wing 110]

that list is straight up ridiculous

Why exactly?

Also, how did this became a Lidstrom thread?

I just don't see 7 point something mill for him as a steal anymore. While Datsyuk and Z are huge bargains. As said earlier, I don't think Stuart has nothing so special that makes him worth 4M. Healthy Lilja for about 1M is a steal IMO. Leino put up numbers already and for 800k that's a steal as well.

I think many people totally missed the whole point of this thread. Those players are not in order depending on their skill level. It's skill vs. cap hit.

So, Selke13 I don't think you agree with me on everything but please tell me what you think is so "straight up ridiculous" about that list.

[AD2044 0]

Why exactly?

Also, how did this became a Lidstrom thread?

I just don't see 7 point something mill for him as a steal anymore. While Datsyuk and Z are huge bargains. As said earlier, I don't think Stuart has nothing so special that makes him worth 4M. Healthy Lilja for about 1M is a steal IMO. Leino put up numbers already and for 800k that's a steal as well.

I think many people totally missed the whole point of this thread. Those players are not in order depending on their skill level. It's skill vs. cap hit.

So, Selke13 I don't think you agree with me on everything but please tell me what you think is so "straight up ridiculous" about that list.

your whole post is redic man. there is not a player in this league that is more underpaid then Lidstrom. He has been for most of his career so whatever he makes now is a steal for the 2nd best defensemen in the history of this game. As for Suart we'll just forget the fact that he plays on the number 1 PK unit, adds a physcial presence, makes a great first pass, averaged as many minutes as lids in last years playoffs oh and last but not least we have been to 2 stanley cup finals since he got here. that fact is just coincidence right

[Finnish Wing 110]

your whole post is redic man. there is not a player in this league that is more underpaid then Lidstrom. He has been for most of his career so whatever he makes now is a steal for the 2nd best defensemen in the history of this game. As for Suart we'll just forget the fact that he plays on the number 1 PK unit, adds a physcial presence, makes a great first pass, averaged as many minutes as lids in last years playoffs oh and last but not least we have been to 2 stanley cup finals since he got here. that fact is just coincidence right

My "whole post is redic" because there's two players in a place where you wouldn't put them? Lidstrom is not a steal, just a good deal. Stuart is not a good deal. I would like to see what your list looks like...

[thedatsyukian 7]

The best defenseman in hockey, our power play QB, shutdown specialist, and our teams tenured captain is being severely underrated.

Quoting so I don't have to type it again. Nobody is misunderstanding this thread, it is you guys who are misunderstanding us. Lidstrom brings more to this team than just his measly 62 points(lol at these people). Who else on this team would you trust to go out there and attempt to shutdown Getzlaf? Nash? Ovy today? Who else would you trust to be out there in the final seconds of a game to stop a goal? Who else do you not EVER worry about when someone comes barreling down on his one on one? Red wing fans are so spoiled that at times it becomes hard to read.

My point is this:What he brings to this team is so much more valuable than his cap hit. Every team in this league would hand over the money given the option without even blinking.

[Finnish Wing 110]

Quoting so I don't have to type it again. Nobody is misunderstanding this thread, it is you guys who are misunderstanding us. Lidstrom brings more to this team than just his measly 62 points(lol at these people). Who else on this team would you trust to go out there and attempt to shutdown Getzlaf? Nash? Ovy today? Who else would you trust to be out there in the final seconds of a game to stop a goal? Who else do you not EVER worry about when someone comes barreling down on his one on one? Red wing fans are so spoiled that at times it becomes hard to read.

My point is this:What he brings to this team is so much more valuable than his cap hit. Every team in this league would hand over the money given the option without even blinking.

Yeah, well this is about skill vs cap hit not dressing room leading vs. cap hit. This is about value overall, not value only to us. You could say this thread is about trade value.

I agree with almost everything you said there. Still, Lids isn't that valuable in the trading market anymore.

[thedatsyukian 7]

Yeah, well this is about skill vs cap hit not dressing room leading vs. cap hit. This is about value overall, not value only to us. You could say this thread is about trade value.

I agree with almost everything you said there. Still, Lids isn't that valuable in the trading market anymore.

I'm sorry you're just wrong. Haha.

You're on ignore and there is no reason to continue this.

[digitaljohn88 4]

A contender would give up ALOT to get Lidstrom even if just for a one-year cup run. Luckily we'd never let that happen.

[Finnish Wing 110]

I'm sorry you're just wrong. Haha.

You're on ignore and there is no reason to continue this.

There's no reason to continue this because you miss the point all the time. You're like saying that Lids is more valuable in the transfer market than for example Franzen (healthy), Datsyuk and Zetterberg. I said Lids is 7th valuable player when considering cap hit and skill. He may be like 5th but no way he's number one like some of you guys are saying.

edit: Apparently here, no matter what the list is about ("Top 10 *** people in the world" for example), if you don't put Nicklas Lidstrom in the top three, you're a stupid troll.

edit2: Why don't you people put your own lists here instead of whining about what you don't agree in my list?

Edited October 10, 2009 by Finnish Wing

[Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

Yep, they're not gonna offer a deal to a guy that had a 59 point season when he was 39 (Chara had 50 pts). You're totally right and not wrong at all.

So if you were a GM and in the unlikely case Lidstrom was to sever ties with the Wings and become a UFA next year, you'd offer him a 5 year deal like you said a few posts earlier?

Words cannot describe how glad I am that you are not a GM for ANY TEAM, not even the Wings, even a team with a lot of ****** bag fans like the Blues.

No, I referenced his numbers from the last three years (you know, when he's been ~5 years older than Chara is now?) AND his won hardware to prove that you're an idiot.

That post did nothing to prove your point that you were trying to illustrate.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

1. Osgood

2. Lidstrom

3. Zetterberg

4. Datsyuk

5. Stuart

6. Cleary

7. Helm

8. Kronwall

Those would be my top eight. I didn't go any further because it is hard to judge certain players who we haven't got to see much of yet this season. Bertuzzi, Williams, Eaves, Abdelkader, Ericsson, etc. could all very easily be ranked pretty highly. I'll give Rafalski and Filppula the benefit of the doubt, but those two would be near the bottom in terms of value for me right now.

Edited October 10, 2009 by GoWings1905

[Guest Four]

-5 Bertuzzi

..as in he should owe us, the fans, 500$ each to play here.

[Reds4Life 51]

Lidstrom

Datsyuk

Zetterberg

Franzen

Kronwall

Osgood

Raflaski

Ericsson

Helm

Leino

Cleary

Stuart

Filppula

Williams

May

Bertuzzi

Holmstrom

Abdelkader

Eaves

Lebda

Meech

Maltby

Draper

Howard

[Aussie_Wing 354]

Staggering that Eaves is so low on everyone's lists.....when the guy signed for $500k! Seriously people.

[Casey 145]

Staggering that Eaves is so low on everyone's lists.....when the guy signed for $500k! Seriously people.

From me, at least, May, Bertuzzi and Eaves are not listable. Not enough data to pull from to make an accurate assessment of value. My list assumes all players listed are healthy, skipping Eaves, May, Bertuzzi for lack of data.

1. Osgood- 2 Cups as a starter, 2 Jennings trophies, and pretty damn clutch in the playoffs. All for a mere $1.4 million cap hit, a value that no goalie I know can match.

2. Datsyuk- $6.7 million cap hit, 97 points last season. $69,072 a point, better than the 4 ahead of him in points. Malkin's at $76,911, Ovechkin, $86,709, Crosby $84,446. Defensive skill is a bonus- that puts him head and shoulders as best forward.

3. Lidstrom- At worst one of the top 10 defensemen in the game. Paid a ton, second highest for a defenseman, but one of the best on the ice and in the locker room.

4. Franzen- When healthy, just under $4 million for 59 points and the 13th-best +/- in the Conference last season is a steal. One knock is fragility, but the shot he took that blew his ACL was a bit freaky.

5. Zetterberg- valued for both his chemistry with Datsyuk, making them the best 1-2 punch in the game, as well as his own offensive and defensive skill. Defense gives Datsyuk the nod for now, but Z may catch up.

6. Ericsson- $900K, and he's already a very competent defenseman. Could be excellent given time to develop.

7. Cleary- really making strides the last few seasons. He's clutch in the postseason, and becoming a skilled power forward.

8. Kronwall- much maligned, but his skill is underrated. Hits, can score, and can make plays in the defensive zone.

9. Lilja- if healthy, he's a very solid second-line defenseman. He's underpaid in that role.

10. Filppula- gaining defensive ability at a surprising rate, developing a Datsyuk-like style. Cheap now, could be a real steal in a few seasons.

[P. Marlowe 748]

Why can't we all just get along and try to understand each other? Reading what OP wrote and maybe thinking about it for a few seconds before you post your reply goes a long way.

On a serious note, thinking about the value of Wings' players this way, it makes you realize (once again) that Holland knows his business quite well. There are no Dustin Penners in the team as none of the players is overpayed much. Maybe Stuart could deserve $3 and Rafalski $5 millions, but those deals were made when the cap was still higher and no one knew it was going to drop. Besides sometimes you have to overpay players or you won't get anyone. Bertuzzi hasn't shown much yet, but it's still early in the season. If Holmström returns to his '07-'08 form he deserves his money. We'll see if he's able to overcome last season's injuries. Right now I'm not sure if Filppula is worth $3 millions, maybe he is, but in a couple of years he is worth it for sure. Leino and Ericsson are steals in my opinion as they already contribute, but it's not like they are 20-year-olds anyway.

I've divided my list into three sections and inside the sections you could switch the players places somewhat.

Leino

Ericsson

Osgood

...

Datsyuk

Zetterberg

Lidström

Franzén

Kronwall

Lilja

Williams

Cleary

Helm

Draper, Maltby, Eaves, May, Abdelkader, Lebda Meech, Howard... (good depth players with appropriately small cap hits)

...

Filppula

Holmström

Bertuzzi

Stuart

Rafalski

[eva unit zero 271]

I've made up my list to account for the parabolic increase in salaries as you get towards the top players at a position, and not just something like a goal-per-dollar ratio or something like that as some people might make up. So here it is.

1. Osgood

2. Zetterberg

3. Lidstrom

4. Datsyuk

5. Kronwall

6. Filppula

7. Cleary

8. Franzen

9. Ericsson

10. Rafalski

11. Leino

12. Abdelkader

13. Holmstrom

14. Helm

15. Lilja

16. Williams

17. Bertuzzi

18. Meech

19. Stuart

20. Draper

21. Howard

22. Maltby

23. Eaves

24. May

25. Lebda