Greatest Individual Seasons in Red Wings History

[egroen 384]

Selke votes? Please.

SELKE: Guy Carbonneau, Mtl C 222 (36-11-9); Esa Tikkanen, Edm LW 73 (8-8-9); Colin Patterson, Cgy W 73 (6-11-10); Rick Meagher, StL C 29 (1-6-6); Bengt Gustaffson, Wsh RW 28 (3-3-4); Doug Gilmour, Cgy 21 (1-5-1); Dirk Graham, Chi 20 (0-6-2); Thomas Steen, Wpg 16 (1-3-2); Jan Erixon, NYR 13 (2-0-3); Jari Kurri, Edm 12 (1-2-1); Stewart Gavin, Min 8 (1-1-0); Steve Yzerman, Det 8 (1-1-0); Joel Otto, Cgy 8 (1-1-0); Ron Sutter, Phi 7 (0-2-1); Steve Kasper, Bos/LA 6 (1-0-1); Patrick Sundstrom, NJ 5 (0-1-2); Steve Larmer, Chi 3 (0-1-0); Mats Naslund, Mtl 3 (0-1-0); Stan Smyl, Van 3 (0-0-3); Mike Ridley, Wsh 2 (0-0-2); Randy Cunneyworth, Pit 1 (0-0-1); Gerard Gallant, Det 1 (0-0-1); Bob Gould, Wsh 1 (0-0-1); Mike McPhee, Mtl 1 (0-0-1); Brian Skrudland, Mtl 1 (0-0-1); Bobby Smith, Mtl 1 (0-0-1); John Tonelli, LA 1 (0-0-1)

wow a whopping 8 points overall

155 points in 88-89 is good but not one of the greatest seasons by a Red Wing.

You should do some research before posting.

Yzerman did not deserve a 1st place vote, but I think some recognition for his defensive play that year was warranted - moreso than the other big scorers from the 80s, Yzerman was called upon for defense. He was often double-shifted on a checking line againt other teams' top lines and was a regular on the PK.

155 points in the 80s is inflated, but Yzerman did do it with very little support that year -- Lemieux in the 80s was putting up similar to more points without good linemates, but he did have Coffey on the backend - something Detroit was lacking big time in the 80s. without Coffey, Mario's highest point total was 141 in '86.

Gordie Howe has at least a couple more impressive individual seasons, but Yzerman's '89 season stacks up pretty well beyond that... I'd say it is on a similar level to Fedorov's 94 season -- as Fedorov was a much stronger two-way player in 94 than Yzerman was in 89 -- but Fedorov had much better linemates and defensemen feeding him the puck that year.

[Reds4Life 51]

In the Czech Republic where all things Jagr are the best.

Thats like saying all Americans are fat and stupid.

[Reds4Life 51]

Yzerman did not deserve a 1st place vote, but I think some recognition for his defensive play that year was warranted - moreso than the other big scorers from the 80s, Yzerman was called upon for defense. He was often double-shifted on a checking line againt other teams' top lines and was a regular on the PK.

155 points in the 80s is inflated, but Yzerman did do it with very little support that year -- Lemieux in the 80s was putting up similar to more points without good linemates, but he did have Coffey on the backend - something Detroit was lacking big time in the 80s. without Coffey, Mario's highest point total was 141 in '86.

Gordie Howe has at least a couple more impressive individual seasons, but Yzerman's '89 season stacks up pretty well beyond that... I'd say it is on a similar level to Fedorov's 94 season -- as Fedorov was a much stronger two-way player in 94 than Yzerman was in 89 -- but Fedorov had much better linemates and defensemen feeding him the puck that year.

Gretzky was better PKer than Yzerman in the 80's and his line did not need to defend at all, you can't really compare Yzerman and Gretzky, even if Yzerman was Bobby Clarke-like defensively, Gretzky and Lemieux are light years ahead.

As I said, it was good season, but not up there with Howe's or Sawchuk's. Just because he is Steve Yzerman, The Captain and fan favourite doesn't mean he is the best or his best season is one of the best Red Wings season in all-time context.

I'd take Fedorov's 94 season over Yzerman's too. It is overrated precisely because of "155 points WOW" effect.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Reds4Life

[Reds4Life 51]

The more you comment on how Yzerman's 155 point season is overrated only makes you look more, and more like a clown.

Well, thanks for your input champ.

You have yet to provide any stats to support that season as one of the best ever. You are just trying to derail this thread and look like funny guy. Guess what? You suck at it.

[Carman 387]

Yzerman scored 155 points on a team that had little to know secondary talent behind him, he was involved in one out of every two goals they scored that year, he was their offense.

Gallant, Oates, Burr, Chiasson, MacLean was his supporting cast .

He was third in the league in scoring behind two of the five best players to have ever played the game. And won a Pearson(Voted by his peers) over them.

And to discredit what he did in 89' just because it's the high scoring era is a very very naive. Are you also one of the people that say Gretzky would be just an above average player if he played in today's game?

*fixed the names

Edited October 14, 2009 by Carman

[oldredbarnman 13]

I think Steve's 155 points in 88/89 is remarkable because of the lack of depth on the team, plus the fact he had blown his knee out the previous season.

[Buppy 1,720]

Well, thanks for your input champ.

You have yet to provide any stats to support that season as one of the best ever. ....

Some stats at the end of the page 1. What stats do you have that suggest it wasn't?

And Carman...

Carson and Federko weren't here yet. Instead it was Oates and Klima that year.

[kook_10 1,705]

The fact that it was the highest single season point tally by a Red Wing ever warrants its place in this discussion every time. In terms of true individual achievement it may even be tops. His peers didn't think his achievement that year was overrated either as evidenced by the Pearson Award.

[Carman 387]

That's what I get for being born the year I'm trying to talk about haha.

Still the point is practically the same.

[Reds4Life 51]

Well, just like I posted earlier, majority of posters here seem to know nothing about Gordie Howe or Terry Sawchuk so it isn't surprising that the most favourite Red Wing player in recent history is getting a lot of support. But from purely objective standpoint his season is not even close to Howe's several best seasons or Sawchuk's best seasons thus making Yzerman's season overrated. Steve may have played with nobodies but on the other hand he got a lot of ice time, that definitely helped his numbers. And btw he started to play great defense AFTER that season.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Reds4Life

[Buppy 1,720]

More stats:

Scoring average in 88-89 was 3.559 per game (per team), in 93-94 it was 3.242 (and skewed somewhat by the presence of 5 recent expansion teams).

That's about a 9% drop.

Yzerman scored about 1.94 points per game. 91% of that is 1.76 ppg, in 84 games equals 148 points. Considerably more than Fedorov's 120, or Getzky's league-leading 130, or Lemieux's ppg pace of 1.68.

Not only was it one of the best Red Wings seasons, it was one of the best seasons, period.

[Reds4Life 51]

Just an FYI - nobody here is referencing Yzerman's defensive prowess for that 1 season; just what he was capable of producing offensively considering he accounted for the bulk of the teams scoring.

How many games did you attend at the Olympia back in the day?...I thought so - another "stats" man.

Yeah, sure. You do realize basically everything is just a stat?

More stats:

Scoring average in 88-89 was 3.559 per game (per team), in 93-94 it was 3.242 (and skewed somewhat by the presence of 5 recent expansion teams).

That's about a 9% drop.

Yzerman scored about 1.94 points per game. 91% of that is 1.76 ppg, in 84 games equals 148 points. Considerably more than Fedorov's 120, or Getzky's league-leading 130, or Lemieux's ppg pace of 1.68.

Not only was it one of the best Red Wings seasons, it was one of the best seasons, period.

Wrong. Goals per game is what matters. Look it up and do the math again (you are gonna be surprised, but drop is significantly more than 9%).

[C-TownWing 0]

Selke votes? Please.

SELKE: Guy Carbonneau, Mtl C 222 (36-11-9); Esa Tikkanen, Edm LW 73 (8-8-9); Colin Patterson, Cgy W 73 (6-11-10); Rick Meagher, StL C 29 (1-6-6); Bengt Gustaffson, Wsh RW 28 (3-3-4); Doug Gilmour, Cgy 21 (1-5-1); Dirk Graham, Chi 20 (0-6-2); Thomas Steen, Wpg 16 (1-3-2); Jan Erixon, NYR 13 (2-0-3); Jari Kurri, Edm 12 (1-2-1); Stewart Gavin, Min 8 (1-1-0); Steve Yzerman, Det 8 (1-1-0); Joel Otto, Cgy 8 (1-1-0); Ron Sutter, Phi 7 (0-2-1); Steve Kasper, Bos/LA 6 (1-0-1); Patrick Sundstrom, NJ 5 (0-1-2); Steve Larmer, Chi 3 (0-1-0); Mats Naslund, Mtl 3 (0-1-0); Stan Smyl, Van 3 (0-0-3); Mike Ridley, Wsh 2 (0-0-2); Randy Cunneyworth, Pit 1 (0-0-1); Gerard Gallant, Det 1 (0-0-1); Bob Gould, Wsh 1 (0-0-1); Mike McPhee, Mtl 1 (0-0-1); Brian Skrudland, Mtl 1 (0-0-1); Bobby Smith, Mtl 1 (0-0-1); John Tonelli, LA 1 (0-0-1)

wow a whopping 8 points overall

155 points in 88-89 is good but not one of the greatest seasons by a Red Wing.

You should do some research before posting.

I consider myself pretty good at looking things up, but I'm seriously impressed by the pull of the full Selke vote from over 20 years ago.

Can't figure out where you're coming from though. The OP didn't declare it THE best, just one of them. And looking at it, it seems like he was limiting it to one per player, so you can't necessarily count the 15 Gordie Howe years you'd put ahead of 88-89 Yzerman. If you think 93-94 Fedorov was better, that's great, I'm sure you're not the only one. Again, "one of."

If you're only going one per player and don't have 88-89 Yzerman in the top 10, you're being irrational.

[Buppy 1,720]

...

Wrong. Goals per game is what matters. Look it up and do the math again (you are gonna be surprised, but drop is significantly more than 9%).

That figure was goals per game.

Doing the math any other way isn't going to change anything.

5979 total goals in 88-89. 21 teams, 80 games, 840 total games. 7.1178 goals / game. 3.5589 / team / game.

7081 total goals in 93-94. 26 teams, 84 games, 1092 total games. 6.4844 goals / game (91.10%). 3.242 / team / game (91.10%).

[Reds4Life 51]

I consider myself pretty good at looking things up, but I'm seriously impressed by the pull of the full Selke vote from over 20 years ago.

Can't figure out where you're coming from though. The OP didn't declare it THE best, just one of them. And looking at it, it seems like he was limiting it to one per player, so you can't necessarily count the 15 Gordie Howe years you'd put ahead of 88-89 Yzerman. If you think 93-94 Fedorov was better, that's great, I'm sure you're not the only one. Again, "one of."

If you're only going one per player and don't have 88-89 Yzerman in the top 10, you're being irrational.

Well, I just think Yzerman's season was good, but not all-time great and I wouldn't put it on the best seasons by a Red Wing list. I also think that many posters here overrate that season and Yzerman as a player, I can understand why but I do not agree.

That figure was goals per game.

Doing the math any other way isn't going to change anything.

5979 total goals in 88-89. 21 teams, 80 games, 840 total games. 7.1178 goals / game. 3.5589 / team / game.

7081 total goals in 93-94. 26 teams, 84 games, 1092 total games. 6.4844 goals / game (91.10%). 3.242 / team / game (91.10%).

See here:

http://www.dropyourgloves.com/Stat/LeagueGoals.aspx

7.48 goals per game in 89, 6.48 in 94, thats a goal per game difference. So that basically closes the gap between Fedorov and Yzerman offensively and when you consider the fact that Fedorov won Selke it is a no brainer.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Reds4Life

[Reds4Life 51]

Not entirely so...Those of us here who were fans back then look at those days, and fondly recall how Yzerman was 1 of the very few bright spots on what was still known around the league as the "Dead Things"...For us it was Yzerman whom helped pull the Red Wings outta the crapper, into respectability, and eventually Stanley Cup Champs; his 155 point mark, and Lester B Pearson award in 1989 are more than just stats, and for most of us Red Wing fans it's a knock on Yzerman when someone like yourself (who probably wasn't even a fan nor on God's green earth at that time) to claim that particular season as "overrated".

WTF is Gods green Earth lol

Anyways, thats exactly why I understand that you overrate Yzerman as a player, thanks for proving my point.

[C-TownWing 0]

Well, I just think Yzerman's season was good, but not all-time great and I wouldn't put it on the best seasons by a Red Wing list. I also think that many posters here overrate that season and Yzerman as a player, I can understand why but I do not agree.

See here:

http://www.dropyourgloves.com/Stat/LeagueGoals.aspx

7.37 goals per game in 89, 6.48 in 94, thats almost a goal per game difference. So that basically closes the gap between Fedorov and Yzerman offensively and when you consider the fact that Fedorov won Selke it is a no brainer.

That's the same site I found...so with that you can project 88-89 Yzerman to 56 goals/78 assists in 93-94 (it's 7.48 goals per game in 88-89). Fedorov went 56 goals/64 assists that year. Curious to see the source for the 9% figure, since this one looks like my HS HTML project from 1998.

So slight edge to Yzerman offensively, slight edge to Fedorov defensively. To me, there's not a huge gap between the best defensive forward and the 12th best. Maybe equal to 14 assists, maybe not. Either way, I don't think there's a tremendous difference between the two seasons, although you're certainly entitled to think so, it's all good.

[Buppy 1,720]

...

7.48 goals per game in 89, 6.48 in 94, thats a goal per game difference. So that basically closes the gap between Fedorov and Yzerman offensively and when you consider the fact that Fedorov won Selke it is a no brainer.

I stand corrected, it was 6286 goals scored in 88-89. Had a team missing from my sum range.

Nevertheless, that still tranlates to 138 points. Then when you consider that the Wings scored 356 goals in 93-94, and only 313 in 88-89 it's clear that Fedorov had a lot more to work with. (Yzerman, that same season, scored at a 116 point pace.)

[Reds4Life 51]

I stand corrected, it was 6286 goals scored in 88-89. Had a team missing from my sum range.

Nevertheless, that still tranlates to 138 points. Then when you consider that the Wings scored 356 goals in 93-94, and only 313 in 88-89 it's clear that Fedorov had a lot more to work with. (Yzerman, that same season, scored at a 116 point pace.)

134 points actually, but that doesn't really matter. The difference is still just adjusted number for average player, for star players who played more minutes, like Yzerman, the gap is even smaller. Fedorov did it in lower scoring era (with better goalie equipment etc) while playing Selke caliber defense.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Reds4Life

[Carman 387]

134 points actually, but that doesn't really matter. The difference is still just adjusted number for average player, for star players who played more minutes, like Yzerman, the gap is even smaller. Fedorov did it in lower scoring era (with better goalie equipment etc) while playing Selke caliber defense.

On a team with several HoFers and the foundation of a 15- year long dynasty. You HAVE to take into account the players each player was surrounded with. The season's are comparable.

[Reds4Life 51]

On a team with several HoFers and the foundation of a 15- year long dynasty. You HAVE to take into account the players each player was surrounded with. The season's are comparable.

Yes, but on the other hand Fedorov got less ice-time. Great players in their primes like Yzerman and Fedorov put up big numbers even if they play with nobodies so the difference isnt as big as you might think. I still like Fedorov's season better.

Yzerman's season is good too though.

[eva unit zero 271]

Here's something those of you who are downing on Yzerman's 88-89 season might want to consider:

Yzerman in 1988-89 is the only player to ever score 140+ points without at least one teammate clearing the 70-point mark and at least one defenseman clearing the 50-point mark. Furthermore every player other than Yzerman who scored above that mark was considered a defensive liability, except for Adam Oates, who was considered average defensively until his defensive renaissance after becoming a role player in Washington.

Yzerman's season, when looked at with respect to the players who surrounded him and how essential he was to both the team's offense and defense, could be argued as one of the greatest individual performances by any player, ever, Red Wing or not.

[Buppy 1,720]

134 points actually, but that doesn't really matter. The difference is still just adjusted number for average player, for star players who played more minutes, like Yzerman, the gap is even smaller. Fedorov did it in lower scoring era (with better goalie equipment etc) while playing Selke caliber defense.

93-94 was an 84 game season, though I only used 82 games since that's what Sergei played. Actually comes out to ~137.6 points, or ~141 for a full 84 games.

I couldn't find TOI stats for either of those seasons to compare. Both were 1st liners, so probably closer than you think, especially with Yzerman missing the first 20 some games in 93-94. Sergei was the primary player to compensate. Again, that Yzerman was able to put up 82 points in 58 games after coming back from a back injury (that he would have surgically repaired the following off-season) says a lot about the offensive capabilities of that team.

You keep citing the 'lower scoring era' when the fact is it wasn't that much of a difference. 1/2 a goal a game per team, and incedentally, the Wings scored half a goal a game MORE than they did in 89. If it had been 2000, with another 15% drop, I'd be more inclined to side with you.

And one more time I have to cite the precipitous drop off from Yzerman to everyone else not either named Gretzky or Lemieux, or playing with them. Joe Mullen was next with 110 points.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Selke votes? Please.

SELKE: Guy Carbonneau, Mtl C 222 (36-11-9); Esa Tikkanen, Edm LW 73 (8-8-9); Colin Patterson, Cgy W 73 (6-11-10); Rick Meagher, StL C 29 (1-6-6); Bengt Gustaffson, Wsh RW 28 (3-3-4); Doug Gilmour, Cgy 21 (1-5-1); Dirk Graham, Chi 20 (0-6-2); Thomas Steen, Wpg 16 (1-3-2); Jan Erixon, NYR 13 (2-0-3); Jari Kurri, Edm 12 (1-2-1); Stewart Gavin, Min 8 (1-1-0); Steve Yzerman, Det 8 (1-1-0); Joel Otto, Cgy 8 (1-1-0); Ron Sutter, Phi 7 (0-2-1); Steve Kasper, Bos/LA 6 (1-0-1); Patrick Sundstrom, NJ 5 (0-1-2); Steve Larmer, Chi 3 (0-1-0); Mats Naslund, Mtl 3 (0-1-0); Stan Smyl, Van 3 (0-0-3); Mike Ridley, Wsh 2 (0-0-2); Randy Cunneyworth, Pit 1 (0-0-1); Gerard Gallant, Det 1 (0-0-1); Bob Gould, Wsh 1 (0-0-1); Mike McPhee, Mtl 1 (0-0-1); Brian Skrudland, Mtl 1 (0-0-1); Bobby Smith, Mtl 1 (0-0-1); John Tonelli, LA 1 (0-0-1)

wow a whopping 8 points overall

155 points in 88-89 is good but not one of the greatest seasons by a Red Wing.

You should do some research before posting.

Reds4Life is a Fedorov homer for life. That's all he's about. Hyping all things Fedorov. Has been his MO forever.

The only players in NHL HISTORY!!!! to ever record more points in a single season than Yzerman's 55 are named Gretzky and Lemieux. High scoring eras or not only 6 players have ever cracked the 150 point mark.

Yzerman recording the highest scoring season ever for a player not named Gretzky or Lemieux is better than Fedorov's season. Specatcular as it was.

We can debate till the cows come home on how much weight should be added to Fedorov's season for winning the Selke. But it's merely opinion at that point. How do weigh the significance of a selke vs reaching a point total that only a handful of players have ever attained?

I'm going Stevie Y. All you gotta say is "highest scoring season ever amongst all NHL players, all time....not named Gretz or Lemieux". That's pretty damned spectacular.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Yeah, sure. You do realize basically everything is just a stat?

Wrong. Goals per game is what matters. Look it up and do the math again (you are gonna be surprised, but drop is significantly more than 9%).

Article was written adjusting scoring for all eras. Stevie got bumped up to 163 points and aside from the big 2, only a handful of players trumped him. Ratelle, Espo, Orr, Jagr, Oates I think.

Others made the list like Lindros and Joe Thornton.

Fedorov's 120 didn't get anywhere near making the cut.

Yzerman's 160+ adjusted was still one of the greatest scoring seasons ever.

If I can find the article I will post it.