Crosby vs Malkin

[Carman 387]

I don't see how people can hold 05-06 against Crosby. He outscored everyone on the team by almost 50 pts in his first season in the NHL. Not to mention it was a complete mess of a team with many of the players in their last year. Then Crosby outplays Malkin in 06-07( Malkin's great rookie year). Also by the way Crosby is one year younger than Malkin. 07-08 Crosby was injured and Malkin broke out although both had the same PPG, but I don't like to stretch numbers. 08-09 Malkin had a better year no doubt had 10 more points and outscored him in the playoffs. I can see comparing the two when they are injured to an extent, but I personally wouldn't to many variable factors.

To me Pittsburgh's depth/goaltending needs a lot more credit then they are getting due. Staal is more then likely the best 3rd line center(right there with Flippula), Gonchar is a very underrated defensive defenseman and an absolute elite offensive one, Letang is a very good 2-3rd defenseman, Orpik is a very good physical defenseman (Scuderi was also), Fedotenko/Sykora/Kunitz/Guerin/Satan either are or were decent secondary scorers and Talbot/Kennedy/Cooke/Dupuis are great roleplayers/penalty killers. I think it's naive of fans to think Malkin/Crosby solely carried the team, of course they play a more important role, but they didn't win them the Stanley Cup they just got them there, in my opinion their depth won the cup.

I don't agree with your conclusion that Malkin is more essential on those stats. He very well might be, but Crosby has been equal or better than Malkin in almost every playoff series, but the Stanley Cup one. It very well could be he couldn't rise to the occasion, but I tend to choose to believe that it was a different factor(Zetterberg/Lidstrom being on Crosby) then anything else. Also I find it interesting and telling that the Red Wing's chose to use their shut down line on Crosby and not Malkin that series.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Carman

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

The thread was.... Crosby and Malkin.... I didn't factor the rest of the team into it because, well, there was no need. Crosby's rookie year was great, but I was clearly talking about contributions to overall team success, not individual. However, let me correct you on one spot.... You're overrating Fluery highly. Don't let Osgood's stats from last year fool u, Fluery's numbers, both GAA and save percentage are average.... in playoffs or regular season.

Again, I'm simply looking at how the team does when Malkin is on versus how the team does when Crosby is on. And btw, Malkin was outscoring Crosby after pretty much every series in the playoffs last year, and the year before... so don't pretend Crosby was just 2nd fiddle in the finals alone.

[Carman 387]

The thread was.... Crosby and Malkin.... I didn't factor the rest of the team into it because, well, there was no need. Crosby's rookie year was great, but I was clearly talking about contributions to overall team success, not individual. However, let me correct you on one spot.... You're overrating Fluery highly. Don't let Osgood's stats from last year fool u, Fluery's numbers, both GAA and save percentage are average.... in playoffs or regular season.

Again, I'm simply looking at how the team does when Malkin is on versus how the team does when Crosby is on. And btw, Malkin was outscoring Crosby after pretty much every series in the playoffs last year, and the year before... so don't pretend Crosby was just 2nd fiddle in the finals alone.

Well I don't really like bringing overall team play into the fold, so many different contributing factors then one player being out. Like this year for example, I don't see how you can hold it against Crosby that the team didn't do well, Guerin was impersonating Bertuzzi's love for posts, the PP was dreadful, they have a rookie Dman leading the team on TOI, and had their two top penalty killers out. If you are going to hold that all against Crosby then Kovalchuk must not even be in the top 10 players considering his team was like that for 5 years.

Fluery's stats may be average but he had some spectacular games, especially in the Philadelphia series, I like Fluery because he is also pretty consistent and has the ability to steal games, he may not be great every game, but he does give you a chance to win(Much like Osgood). I don't really think I'm overrating a young goaltender like Fleury he is top 6-10 in goaltending. Crosby outplayed Malkin through last years playoff's until the Detroit series, there was a reason Babcock used Zetterberg/Lidstrom on Crosby and not Malkin.

Anyways I'm enjoying the discussion, hopefully we can keep it around this same logical level.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Carman

[CopenhagenWing 38]

Well there's certainly points where the analogy will break down, but Crosby is definitely the leader and more of a complete player, similar to Yzerman who was hands down the Wings leader on and off the ice, and played both ends of the game well (this is where I think the analogy breaks down the most, because Crosby still has defensive flaws in my opinion, but time will tell if he can overcome them).

Malkin is a pure scorer and at times seems unmotivated. That is Fedorov to a tee.

Outright wrong.

And lest we forget, Yzerman wasn't regarded as an elite 2-way player until Bowman "persuaded" him to become one.

[Finnish Wing 110]

I think it all comes down to the size (not to bash Dats or Z) where Malkin has this huge edge.

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

Malkin > Crosby

[eva unit zero 271]

Outright wrong.

And lest we forget, Yzerman wasn't regarded as an elite 2-way player until Bowman "persuaded" him to become one.

This is because Yzerman was so good offensively that it overshadowed his defensive abilities. Yzerman was very good defensively even in his early career. That's why he was playing on the top penalty killing unit many years in the mid/late 80s and early 90s. Crosby and Malkin don't see any PK time; now is the equivalent of the end of the 80s for those two, when Yzerman performed an offensive feat only Gretzky had ever accomplished, and also received a first-place Selke vote the same year.

The accomplishment? Scoring 130+ points for his team without having any teammate score 90+ and without having any defenseman score 60+ points. Mario Lemieux didn't even do that one.

[Carman 387]

Just a little correction, Crosby is starting to play on the PK. He has about one shift less SH time then Datsyuk. Not saying he is good on the PK or anything, just saying he is atleast starting to play more defensively. Other then that I agree with your assement on Yzerman, I feel he gets short changed a little especially in comparisons to Joe Sakic.

[RedWingsRox 614]

Another vote for Malkin. Record speak for itself when he is out of lineup vs. when Crosby is out of lineup. That and plus he is less whiny.

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

Well I don't really like bringing overall team play into the fold, so many different contributing factors then one player being out. Like this year for example, I don't see how you can hold it against Crosby that the team didn't do well, Guerin was impersonating Bertuzzi's love for posts, the PP was dreadful, they have a rookie Dman leading the team on TOI, and had their two top penalty killers out. If you are going to hold that all against Crosby then Kovalchuk must not even be in the top 10 players considering his team was like that for 5 years.

Fluery's stats may be average but he had some spectacular games, especially in the Philadelphia series, I like Fluery because he is also pretty consistent and has the ability to steal games, he may not be great every game, but he does give you a chance to win(Much like Osgood). I don't really think I'm overrating a young goaltender like Fleury he is top 6-10 in goaltending. Crosby outplayed Malkin through last years playoff's until the Detroit series, there was a reason Babcock used Zetterberg/Lidstrom on Crosby and not Malkin.

Anyways I'm enjoying the discussion, hopefully we can keep it around this same logical level.

I agree that team success is a subjective measure, but in reality, there's not much more that can be used as evidence. I will, however, point out that Malkin logs more icetime (at least the last 2 years), led the league in takeaways last season, and had only 1 more giveaway than Crosby did (and Crosby played in 5 less games). They block nearly the same # of shots and throw about the same number of hits. Crosby is better on the faceoffs tho. I will, however, also still disagree and say that I think Malkin was the better player through every round of the playoffs last year, with the exception of the Caps series that saw a pretty fun Ovie vs Crosby scoring showdown.

[darvesh88 8]

I'd rather take Datsyuk or Zetterberg over Crosby or Malkin.

[Guest Shoreline]

I want to know why this thread is on a Red Wings forum?

Cuz a lot of Wings fans really love Crosby. They can say they don't but all the attention he gets suggests otherwise.

That being said, Malkin is a better offensive powerhouse. Crosby is a more well-rounded player and better leader/marketable player. Marketable players get more attention even if some large fanbase believes they are not the "best" on the ice.

Edited November 17, 2009 by Shoreline

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Uggg... why did you have to drag this pointless thread up again Shoreline? Stop throwing kindling onto the fire that is this retard rodeo.

[Guest Shoreline]

Uggg... why did you have to drag this pointless thread up again Shoreline? Stop throwing kindling onto the fire that is this retard rodeo.

It was posted/updated today and this is my first time visiting for Monday. *shrugs*

*bump*

Edited November 17, 2009 by Shoreline

[Datsasuk 2]

Most of what I have to say has already been said but...

I would choose Crosby over Malkin. Naturally, Crosby is a "set up guy." He prefers to pass the puck over shooting it. For this reason, he is constantly making the players around him better, and has done so playing with some pretty terrible people like Mark Recchi and Ryan Malone. Crosby is also a more responsible leader and pushes his teammates to work very hard on and off the ice. He leads by example.

Malkin has an insane ability to take over games and play possessed when he wants to. But, his motivation for doing so seems to be random. When Malkin is playing his game, he's all over the place and pretty much doing it all himself. However, I don't think he really makes the players around him better, unless they happen to touch the puck before him. Also, his english sucks.

[RedArmy 4]

damn and I thought that Crosby is over exposed by the media, yet here we are talking about him again... ugh

I pick Malkin any day, he has been consistently carrying the team, while Crosby tends to get injured.

Fedorov was way better defensively than Malkin, so I am not sure why the comparison (is it cause he is Russian and 2nd best or something?) So right now I would argue that Yzerman and Fedorov are both 2 way, complete players, while Crosby and Malkin aren't yet...

[edicius 3,269]

I still have to go with Malkin. Malkin goes down to injury, Pens start losing. Malkin comes back, Pens start winning again. And before anyone says, "But guys like Gonchar are injured too!" Yeah, and those guys that were injured when Malkin was out are still injured. Might still be a false causal relationship, but it's got legs.

[Guest ZetterbergFourty]

Laughable.

[Doc Holiday 0]

Ovechkin.

[toby91_ca 620]

I still have to go with Malkin. Malkin goes down to injury, Pens start losing. Malkin comes back, Pens start winning again. And before anyone says, "But guys like Gonchar are injured too!" Yeah, and those guys that were injured when Malkin was out are still injured. Might still be a false causal relationship, but it's got legs.

Yes, those guys are still injured, but getting back Malkin would hopefully boost your chances, regardless if others came back, this should have no impact as to how well Malkin carries the team vs. Crosby. It's not like Malkin came back and Crosby went out, so the fact that they were losing when Malkin was out and now winning (2 games) doesn't show much, especially when you consider who the 2 wins came against and when you consider that last night's win had nothing to do with Malkin.

I think that team is just trying to survive right now, ignoring some of the key forwards that are missing, they are currently without their top 4 dmen, not only 4 of their top 6, but actually their top 4.

It's interesting though, I've watched a handful of their games this year, including most of the last 2 games and they have played better with Malkin in the lineup. If you zero in on Crosby, the logical person would think, hey, with Malkin in the lineup, you have to choose who you are going to put your best defensive players against (as they do not play together), yet, they have played together the past 2 games.

The big thing I have seen with Malkin coming back is that it allows guys like Cooke and Dupius to be taking off scoring lines and actually play within their abilities. Dupius is a very effective 3rd liner, as a 1st or 2nd liner, he's crap.

Anyway, my take on the Crosby vs. Malkin....who cares? But seriously, it depends on what we're talking about. Malkin clearly has the advantage in terms of size, reach and slap shot, this much is obvious and he uses his reach very effectively. In terms of size advantage, I'd almost lean towards Crosby as being the better physical player. Crosby is a better playmaker, but Malkin can distribute the puck around pretty good too. Malkin should be the better goal scorer due to his shot advantage, but Crosby tends to pick up quite a few goals as well. Crosby is by far the better faceoff guy and he might actually be near the top in the league at this point. Defensively, I'd give Crosby the slight edge here as well.

So, no clear better player, but I'd pick Crosby on the overall. I think both are really good players and are likely to continue to get better as both are only 22 and 23.