Chicago routs San Jose 7-2

[Doc Holiday 0]

Well, Hossa did have 26 points in 20 playoff games with the Penguins in 07-08. He was a huge factor in them getting to the finals that year. I would personally take Hossa over Franzen and I said that at the beginning of last year when there were talks of only resigning one of them.

That had nothing to do with the kind of centers he was playing with? Or the fact that most of the attention was put on Crosby that year?

While Franzen is still waiting for a breakout season Hossa has 9 regular season's with 60+ points. And the regular season is important whether you think it is or not. Hossa also played better defensive hockey in the playoffs than Franzen, there is a reason one winger was chosen over the other to play more on the PK. Franzen had one playoffs that he played better than Hossa, a playoffs in which Hossa had a torn rotator cuff. I find it unbelievable that in a non-cap world would would take Franzen over Hossa.

Last year's playoffs are comparing a hurt Hossa to a fairly healthy Franzen. You don't even mention the playoffs before where Hossa completely outplayed Franzen.

Hossa had 40 goals in the regular season with that same injury. No way you can use that injury as an indicator of anything.

And completely outplayed? You are kidding, right?

Edited November 26, 2009 by Doc Holiday

[Carman 387]

That had nothing to do with the kind of centers he was playing with? Or the fact that most of the attention was put on Crosby that year?

Hossa had 40 goals in the regular season with that same injury. No way you can use that injury as an indicator of anything.

And completely outplayed? You are kidding, right?

And Franzen isn't benefiting from playing on the best PP unit in the playoffs? Not to mention a couple good centers himself.

Oh yeah, I forgot injuries never get progressively worse the longer they go on while playing a physical sport.

And yes Hossa was better in practically every statistical category that playoffs than Franzen that to me is completely outplaying another player.

[Zion 93]

This is why no one fears the Sharks in the playoffs.

[Doc Holiday 0]

And Franzen isn't benefiting from playing on the best PP unit in the playoffs? Not to mention a couple good centers himself.

If we are talking about 2008 playoffs Franzen didn't play with Zetterberg and Datsyuk that year. Unless I am mistaken. Either way Datsyuk and Zetterberg aren't in the same level offensively as Crosby and Malkin are. Especially when it comes to playmaking.

Oh yeah, I forgot injuries never get progressively worse the longer they go on while playing a physical sport.

So basically you are saying he went from 40 goals in 82 to 6 in 23 (in three games those goals were scored) simply because his injury "got worse"? I'm sure that was the case. Don't mind that he scored in every game 3 of the first three rounds, so wouldn't his goal production in that regard GO DOWN?

And yes Hossa was better in practically every statistical category that playoffs than Franzen that to me is completely outplaying another player.

Because we all know statistics tell the whole story.

[Carman 387]

If we are talking about 2008 playoffs Franzen didn't play with Zetterberg and Datsyuk that year. Unless I am mistaken. Either way Datsyuk and Zetterberg aren't in the same level offensively as Crosby and Malkin are. Especially when it comes to playmaking.

So basically you are saying he went from 40 goals in 82 to 6 in 23 (in three games those goals were scored) simply because his injury "got worse"? I'm sure that was the case. Don't mind that he scored in every game 3 of the first three rounds, so wouldn't his goal production in that regard GO DOWN?

Because we all know statistics tell the whole story.

Well Franzen had 19:00ish TOI I'm guessing he shared the ice with Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Either way Detroit was the better team and had more depth which would help Franzen you would think.

And there was a hit in the Chicago series which looked to really hurt the injury. Either way he wasn't healthy and I believe that the injury had more effect on his game then anything else. This we probably disagree on, so I'll just agree to disagree because there isn't really a way to prove it either way.

And statistics surely don't tell the whole story, but do give a pretty good idea.

[Z and D for the C 712]

Problem is Carman likes to focus on one tiny aspect of a discussion and try to hammer it down your thought.

So not letting up the fact that Hossa had a bad playoffs for his standards with a dislocated shoulder when not even Datsyuk could produce isn't hammering something down you throat?

And it's not like Hossa is making twice Franzen's salary. It's less than a 1.5 million difference, which is less than the difference between having Bertuzzi and not. Oh no.

[Z and D for the C 712]

he went from 40 goals in 82 to 6 in 23

Then...

Because we all know statistics tell the whole story.

You act like you're the only one bringing up stats.

And you do realize that games in the playoffs are more intense and physical, right? Such that maybe his injury didn't get worse, butt he effects are felt more?

[mmamolo 287]

While Franzen is still waiting for a breakout season Hossa has 9 regular season's with 60+ points. And the regular season is important whether you think it is or not. Hossa also played better defensive hockey in the playoffs than Franzen, there is a reason one winger was chosen over the other to play more on the PK. Franzen had one playoffs that he played better than Hossa, a playoffs in which Hossa had a torn rotator cuff. I find it unbelievable that in a non-cap world would would take Franzen over Hossa.

Last year's playoffs are comparing a hurt Hossa to a fairly healthy Franzen. You don't even mention the playoffs before where Hossa completely outplayed Franzen.

It's debatable that Hossa completely outplayed Franzen in the 2008 playoffs. Hossa did have an awesome run but so did Franzen and if it weren't for the injury (concussion I believe in the Colorado series) it woudl have been even better. He had 18 points in 16 games with 13 goals. Not to mention the GWGs and the record he set in the second round. Hossa had a great playoffs in his own right with 26 points in 20 games, with 12 goals. These guys are goal scorers dont forget. Personally I find it hard to believe Hossa 'completely outplayed Franzen'

So not letting up the fact that Hossa had a bad playoffs for his standards with a dislocated shoulder when not even Datsyuk could produce isn't hammering something down you throat?

And it's not like Hossa is making twice Franzen's salary. It's less than a 1.5 million difference, which is less than the difference between having Bertuzzi and not. Oh no.

First of all I mentioned how Datsyuk was in the same boat as Hossa to me in last year's playoffs. Secondly, not sayign other ppl haven't done this either, but stats are being displayed in an advantageous format to display the particular point they are trying to make.

Plus, in a cap world personally I would rather take Franzen and $1.5M over Hossa...especially in 5 years

[sureWhyNot 19]

That tends to happen when key players are out injured. I doubt the 3 SHG's would never had happen if Blake was on the blue line QB'ing. That said, I hate using injuries as an excuse. SJ was horrid and Chicago is playing good right now. They'll will fizzle. It might take for the Red Wings to give them a good ol' beat down again, but they will fizzle.

Remember Chicago had to suck since 1961 to get to where they are right now. And after this 1-year window, they'll be faced with cap issues... aren't they over the cap now? They must be dollars and pennies close. I'm glad Holland doesn't have to mortgage away the entire future for a one year chance to win.

It's probably nice getting all that great talent from drafting, but I'm sure it wasn't fun to suck so bad for so long to get there. Now they are going to be losing some of those guys because they love to overpay their players and can't manage the franchise.

This is Chicago's high. It'll be short lived.

I am taking this as a indication you are not aware that they are ready to sign Kane, Toew's and Duncan Keith to long term contracts - but are waiting for the whole tagging issue to play out. That will give them Campbell (granted, very overpaid), Hossa, Kane, Toews, Versteeg and Bolland all locked up for the foreseeable future.

I agree they were bad for a very long time - thats pretty obvious. But to claim that their success is going to be short lived or that they mortgaged their future for a single year is downright false.

Nice.

If I remember correctly, Franzen started out on the 4th line and worked his way up to the 1st and 2nd line by being dominating and clutch. Since Franzen broke out, all is history.

...and I'm sure Franzen would make $6 million+ on any other team. He's a bargain. Hossa is a bargain right now but in 7 or 8 years he's overpaid and his contract is 1 year longer.

It's not as cut and dry as you try to make it seem, Carman. Player/Playoffs/Salary/Contract all factor in to make Franzen the best choice for the Wings. Wings shed a s*** load of salary next year and, because of Hossa's contract, Chicago is in big time trouble next year if they want to keep their core/depth. I'm just glad Holland and the Wings don't have these kind of drama/issues.

Whats your point? Hossa played on teams year after year that were less talented then the Wings - period. Franzen has had every tool a NHL'er could want throughout his early years, Hossa didn't.

I was arguing since the start of this Hossa/Franzen debate that Hossa is the superior player.

Also we could have definitely managed a long term deal with Hossa. Franzen signed for 11 years with a annual cap hit of $3.9/season and Hossa signed for 12 years with cap hit of $5.2/season. I know that $1.3 million could have been made up somewhere else.

Heck don't sign either Williams or Bertuzzi, bring up another youngster or a cheaper FA and that would cover half the 1.3. Not to mention we coulda probably had Hossa for a tad cheaper then Chicago got him - long term that is.

Who knows. It is pointless to look back now. I hope Franzen returns and is better then ever.

[Miller Brew 0]

I am taking this as a indication you are not aware that they are ready to sign Kane, Toew's and Duncan Keith to long term contracts - but are waiting for the whole tagging issue to play out. That will give them Campbell (granted, very overpaid), Hossa, Kane, Toews, Versteeg and Bolland all locked up for the foreseeable future.

I agree they were bad for a very long time - thats pretty obvious. But to claim that their success is going to be short lived or that they mortgaged their future for a single year is downright false.

Whats your point? Hossa played on teams year after year that were less talented then the Wings - period. Franzen has had every tool a NHL'er could want throughout his early years, Hossa didn't.

I was arguing since the start of this Hossa/Franzen debate that Hossa is the superior player.

Also we could have definitely managed a long term deal with Hossa. Franzen signed for 11 years with a annual cap hit of $3.9/season and Hossa signed for 12 years with cap hit of $5.2/season. I know that $1.3 million could have been made up somewhere else.

Heck don't sign either Williams or Bertuzzi, bring up another youngster or a cheaper FA and that would cover half the 1.3. Not to mention we coulda probably had Hossa for a tad cheaper then Chicago got him - long term that is.

Who knows. It is pointless to look back now. I hope Franzen returns and is better then ever.

Because they are signing all three (at the salary stated through online media) is why they are giving up their depth. Take a look:

TKK $18

Hossa $5.26

Versteeg $3

Bolland $3.78

Kopecky $1.2 - Lol.

Campbell $7.1

Seabrook $3.5

Barker 3.1

Huet $5.6

11 players locked up for $50.55 million. They need to pay 10 - 11 players yet with only 6 million remaining. Which means they'll have 5 forwards and 2 dmen and a backup that earn less than $600.000 on average each. Not to mention Niemi is making over 800k and is due for a nice raise next year. He's their best goalie.

Chicago might have 2 good lines then will have a huge drop off in depth. Not to mention they will have questionable defense and goaltending.

Lets not forget that Chicago Blackhawks is the organization that can't even mail in their qualifying offers in on time and the same team that allegedly lied/strung along/screwed over Martin Havlat then dumped him like a pile dog poo (not a classy organization).

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

I had mixed feelings when Hossa left. While I knew I was a bit bitter about it because we lost 40 goals from it, I was also happy in a sense to see him leave given the fact that he completely s*** the bed in the playoffs. God knows we need him more than ever right now.

[gcom007 1,465]

Thank you - this is spot on. People also forget that Hossa was hurt - this was confirmed afterwords, hence the off season shoulder surgery.

Chicago is sick - flat out. I hate them, I live in the city and have to put up with the nauseating bandwagon hawks fans (not all Hawks fans, but the most vocal - in Chicago at least - are) but to deny the fact that they are insanely good shows pure ignorance on whoever is making the claim.

One last thing on this topic - while a hurt Hossa did not play as well as he probably could have, he still ended up with 15 points for us in the 23 postseason (6 goals, 9 assists) games he played in. Datsyuk had 9 points (1 goal, 8 assists) and while yes - he did play 7 fewer games (16 postseason games) then Hossa, I think we can still agree - was just as big of a bust, if not bigger then Hossa. Homer had a whopping 7 points in 23 games, Cleary had 15 points (same as Hossa), and Flip had 16 points.

So ya - maybe Hossa wasn't a horse, but then again, neither were some others who we counted on.

I will say this much - Hossa put up 40 goals in the regular season with 31 assists to boot. Disregard this as much as you have to in order to make yourself feel better, but 71 points is 71 points.

I am not going to sit here are list why I would have rather kept Hossa over Franzen - it is meaningless. I did however express my desire to keep Hossa out of the two throughout last year, into the summer, right up until Hossa put the Hawks sweater on at their wack ass press conference with dozens of clapping schoolchildren.

Franzen is a beast - Hossa however is a proven beast (same age as Franzen and since 05-06 has posted season point totals of 92, 100, 66 and 71 while Franzen since 05-06 has posted season point totals of 16, 30, 38, and 59) Again, these two are the exact same age. I am by no means saying Franzen won't put up huge numbers - I pray to god he does - I am just pointing out that Hossa is in an elite category of players already. I will leave it at that.

I will say that the Red Wings are far from the only team with injury issues - so that excuse, especially this year more then any in recent memory, is somewhat moot.

:thumbup: :thumbup:

[mmamolo 287]

Whats your point? Hossa played on teams year after year that were less talented then the Wings - period. Franzen has had every tool a NHL'er could want throughout his early years, Hossa didn't.

Granted, the Wings teams Franzen played are were very good but to say Hossa had nothing during his time in Ottawa is kind of a stretch. Ottawa didn't have the playoff success (granted) but they had extremely strong regular season teams. It's not like Hossa had nothing in Ottawa. With Alfredsson, Havlat, Chara, Redden etc they were a good team.

Also, in reference to ppl saying Chicago has mortgaged their future; obviously that's a bit of an overstatment. But Drew Miller does raise a good point that aside from that core it is going to be extremely tough to have any type of real depth beyond Kane, Toews, Keith, Bolland, Versteeg, Hossa, Campbell, Barker and Huet. Thats a realyl strong core if you ask me but the Hawks could potentially end up losing/trading Sharp, Byfuglien, Madden, Eager, Burrish, Seabrokk, Hjarlmarsson and Niemi.

May not sound like much but it's not nothing either.

[paul19010 14]

i'll preface this by saying that i am easy to please, since being a wings fan they have delivered 2 stanley cups, my first 2 ever championships as a sports fan. so while i would love for them to win every season, i am happy and content, and if they dont win another for 5 years, i'll still be a happy fan. (although my preference of course would be a 5-peat.)

anyway the point of that preface is to say that this thread has put in my mind what i would like to see realistically from the wings this year if they dont win it all. (i dont expect them to, but of course would take it.) what I would like to see is the wings make the 7th or 8th seed and draw Chicago in the first round and upset them. that would make me satisfied, just like i was last year when they beat the f***s in 7 games. everything after that was gravy for me.