Fantastic News about the Wings!

[Doc Holiday 0]

EDIT: BTW, in the other thread you were not stating:

You said what he will or will not be in the future, not at his current play he is x. Your original comment was stated as a known fact, and had zero reference to his current level of play.

You expect Howard to be a Vezina candidate? Because there were posters pegging him as such. Please go on and explain why that is, since I have yet to hear anything backing up that statement.

And I never said Howard will be anything, I have stuck to commenting on his current level of play, because to state what a player will be while in the start of their rookie season would be dumb. I thought Pav Bure would be an automatic HOF bid, injuries may have changed that.

And that is because Bure showed that he was one of the more dominant forwards in the league when he played. Howard is not a goaltender playing like a Vezina goaltender but may get injuries in his career. He is a rookie who started out struggling mightily but has picked up his game so far. Nothing about his play shows Vezina quality or even top 10 in the league quality.

And his current level of play is better than average, is better than decent. He is working his way up the stat ladder pretty quickly and after a bad bad start to the season.

Never said he wasn't.

And in some instances is the only reason the Wings are in games, NYR game anyone remember that one, I mean it was so long ago!

Never denied that either.

You are right he is another Raycroft in the making and you have him pegged all along, good for you.

You win and internet cookie.

Excellent retort.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Doc Holiday

[Namingway 146]

Needs more threads like these, thanks Drake

[Opie 308]

And after not denying all of those things all you can come up with is:

He did exactly what was needed. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Was I the one who said he was a Vezina Candidate, NOPE!

What I have said all year is the following:

I am a huge J-ho fan.

Howard is playing better than Ozzie.

Howard is a rookie and is getting better game in and game out.

The Wings need the vet ready for Playoffs, I do not want to ride a rookie, unless hot as all hell, into the postseason.

And to those that have tried to anoint him the next Roy or Richter I say the same things I have said to you. Wait to make those decisions!

This team doesn't just need him to make saves, they are relying on him to keep them in games. He is not doing what is needed, he is keeping them in games, and in the case of the NYR game was the best player on the team, and again last night he was. How Z got second star from some reporters is beyond me.

The offense is inept, his GAA is better than half of the starters in the league, he has shown great athleticism, and patients, horrible rebound control, and it seems like he is trying to meet the puck half way instead of letting it come to him. Not talking about position but more about the way the puck hits him. Like a reciever in football who is fighting to catch the ball. (Not sure that made any sense to anyone but me)

But what got me to post in response to you and GMR, was the fact that to me your statement of :

He did exactly what was needed. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Was that it wreaks of some one who is trying to tell everyone else that he is just average. IF that was not your intention I appologize.

However it looks like you are just as bad as the people trashing Bert or Dats in every thread they get a chance. Because your posts always seem to try to bring people to your understanding of Howard,

Another BTW: Who in this thread said he was HOF or Vezina bound, or even Calder bound?

EDIT: I wasn't trying to insinuate that you though Howard lost the game, I was giving my impression of that goal and his play.

So if the wings win 3-2 and Eaves has a hat trick was he just doing what the team needed of him?

Edited December 10, 2009 by Opie

[Doc Holiday 0]

And after not denying all of those things all you can come up with is:

Was I the one who said he was a Vezina Candidate, NOPE!

But in that thread SOMEONE did. And I did not respond to you directly in that post, yet you bring up the fact that I am trying to predict the future based on that. The fact of the matter is my prediction is correct based on the information provided.

What I have said all year is the following:

I am a huge J-ho fan.

Howard is playing better than Ozzie.

Howard is a rookie and is getting better game in and game out.

The Wings need the vet ready for Playoffs, I do not want to ride a rookie, unless hot as all hell, into the postseason.

And to those that have tried to anoint him the next Roy or Richter I say the same things I have said to you. Wait to make those decisions!

Perhaps I should wait before saying that Hudler is not going to be a consistent 100+ point getter?

My entire point was to say that people need to make sure they don't assume Howard is going to be much more than a consistent NHL starter.

This team doesn't just need him to make saves, they are relying on him to keep them in games. He is not doing what is needed, he is keeping them in games, and in the case of the NYR game was the best player on the team, and again last night he was. How Z got second star from some reporters is beyond me.

They need him to keep them in games, and he has been. You even said they needed him to play well, which is what I was agreeing with.

The offense is inept, his GAA is better than half of the starters in the league, he has shown great athleticism, and patients, horrible rebound control, and it seems like he is trying to meet the puck half way instead of letting it come to him. Not talking about position but more about the way the puck hits him. Like a reciever in football who is fighting to catch the ball. (Not sure that made any sense to anyone but me)

And I have not once said he isn't improving, so I don't see your point here.

But what got me to post in response to you and GMR, was the fact that to me your statement of :

Was that it wreaks of some one who is trying to tell everyone else that he is just average. IF that was not your intention I appologize.

I never said average now did I? Detroit doesn't need an average goaltender.

However it looks like you are just as bad as the people trashing Bert or Dats in every thread they get a chance. Because your posts always seem to try to bring people to your understanding of Howard,

Another BTW: Who in this thread said he was HOF or Vezina bound, or even Calder bound?

It was the original "Howard rox" thread in which I was chastised (possibly by you) for responding to a specific "VEZINA YES" poster.

I do not believe the defensive stats this season are simply because of Howard, which is why I responded to GMR in THIS THREAD.

So if the wings win 3-2 and Eaves has a hat trick was he just doing what the team needed of him?

No? The team needs its stars to play like stars. It needs its role guys to play like role guys. It needs its goalies to keep them in games. Howard did not play his best game last night but he played very well, and it kept Detroit in the game. That's what the team needed.

Stop with the strawman claims, already.

[Rivalred 630]

Holland should really consider bringing in Tiger Woods.

This guy has been scoring like crazy lately.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Rivalred

[Pavel Hossyukstrom 2]

This thread is absolutely on the money. But this is usually the sign of a mid range team (with all the injuries we have we can only really see ourselves somewhere in the middle). Mid level teams can either score goals in bunches and have trouble on D or they can keep the puck out of their net but have trouble putting some on the board.

What should really be encouraging to ppl on this site is that the bulk of the players we currently have on the LTIR will only help our offence. Franzen, Kronwall, Filppula, and Williams will all boost our offence. If our team D continues to perform as it has we'll be in great shape down the stretch.

Yeah but can said teams lead the league in shots on goal for most of the season. All it is, is bounces and luck at this point. We're shooting the puck more than any other team at least and outshooting the opposition like we used to. The goals will come. The wings system isn't midrange, it works.

[Chunkylover 26]

Holland should really consider bringing in Tiger Woods.

This guy has been scoring like crazy lately.

Cheap shot!

[Opie 308]

Alright Doc for the sake of the App I am developing and the fact you are one of my fav posters here I will give.

But I am not making strawman arguments, you have blatantly stated what J-ho will and will not be, and in multiple threads, yet others who do the same are dillusional.

No one in this thread here was saying he was Vezina worthy, One poster said the Wings gave the Blues too many good scoring chances and Howard kept the team in the game, your retort is he did what was needed.

If the team won 3-1, sure. They lost 1-0 and it easily could have been 2 or 3. You don't think so fine. He kept them in the game (along with Murray's constant line changes) if that is your idea of a goalie doing what is needed, I hate to see your idea of a really good goaltender, 15-20 SO a season, GAA under 1.2, SV% .989?

I find it funny how your argument is exactly the same as the people saying he will be a Vezina candidate, but because your prognosis is not so rosy you are right!

So I guess:

I am convinced you are right and J-ho will be a very average goaltender for his career.

[vOrophin 5]

Man with al the doom and gloom around here I thought we had fallen down in the standings even more. But we're still only 1 spot out of the playoffs, with plenty of time to go. And god forbid more injuries, our lineup should only get better as the year goes on.

Something is going to kick in at some point, or we will face some teams going through a bad time, and the Wings will get a couple victories in a row and things will look great. Then we will struggle to score for a few games, maybe netting a couple but not enough to win. The world will be ending imminently. This will likely ping pong for the rest of the season, with LGW reading like a rollercoaster for the 09-10 season.

[Shady Ultima 40]

To the people saying Jimmy Howard may or may not be a Vezina Candidate in his future. I'd love to introduce you to a goalie named Tim Thomas. The guy was a 'career backup', a below average goalie who some teams didn't even want because he was considered so poor.

Who won the Vezina last year?

[Jake Ryan 1]

The Wings need to get faster and younger. They are getting outskated.

[Guest Lidstromboli]

"I KILL PENAAAAALTIIIIEEEEEES!!"

Edited December 10, 2009 by Lidstromboli

[Doc Holiday 0]

Alright Doc for the sake of the App I am developing and the fact you are one of my fav posters here I will give.

But I am not making strawman arguments, you have blatantly stated what J-ho will and will not be, and in multiple threads, yet others who do the same are dillusional.

I never said anyone was delusional (perhaps I did, but I would find it silly for anyone to consider Howard a future Vezina quality goaltender at this point). I never brought up his "Vezina potential" based on this thread, either. All I said that was Howard did what was needed and didn't "save" the game. The Blues had some good chances but didn't carry the play or provide a large amount of high quality scoring chances.

No one in this thread here was saying he was Vezina worthy, One poster said the Wings gave the Blues too many good scoring chances and Howard kept the team in the game, your retort is he did what was needed.

I don't believe the Blues had a large amount of scoring chances. That, of course, is debatable.

If the team won 3-1, sure. They lost 1-0 and it easily could have been 2 or 3. You don't think so fine. He kept them in the game (along with Murray's constant line changes) if that is your idea of a goalie doing what is needed, I hate to see your idea of a really good goaltender, 15-20 SO a season, GAA under 1.2, SV% .989?

Well it's not like he could have invented Blue's scoring chances out of nowhere. He played almost as good as he could, but that doesn't make him a gamesaver. It made him a game-helper (yes I'm inventing my own phrases).

Sometimes the goaltender doesn't HAVE to be amazing to have one goal scored against him. Happens to the best of them.

I find it funny how your argument is exactly the same as the people saying he will be a Vezina candidate, but because your prognosis is not so rosy you are right!

So I guess:

I am convinced you are right and J-ho will be a very average goaltender for his career.

No, Opie. You are taking my statements way out of context. My "prognosis" is that Howard has the potential (after watching him improve) to become a consistent NHL starter, but isn't there yet. Of course that is not a problem because he doesn't need to be as a rookie. I do believe Howard has helped the Wings defense when it comes to statistics, though the amount can be debated considering the teams Howard has played and how many quality scoring chances Howard has faced (for the sake of the discussion I am going to let that be). I also do not believe that the numbers are majorly affected by Howard's play. I think the defense has vastly improved since the beginning of the year and they have played a much more disciplined game. The fact that Howard is a Conklin-lite doesn't hurt either, obviously.

Can we just leave the "Vezina" argument out of this thread? My response to GMR didn't have anything to do with that and I really don't care if you or I brought it up because it is a non-issue.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Doc Holiday

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Hate to s*** all over the parade, but it seems like teams are just scoring one or two early on us and then shutting it down for the night because we don't score. If we had more goals I bet we'd have more goals against.

Even with that factored in though, our defense is much better than last year.

You could say that for every team with a good GAA. Everyone tries to shut the other team down and protect their lead. It's not like the opposition stops trying to score after they've secured a 1 or 2 goal lead. They may play a bit more conservatively, but that's hardly enough of an argument to justify saying it skews the Wings' GAA any more than it does the rest of the league.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Howard was decent, but it isn't like he was stopping multiple breakaways and cross ice passes.

He did exactly what was needed. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Did Howard have a rough first 4 games of the season? Sure. But since then he's been money.

Jimmy Howard's stats since the start of November:

7W-4L-0OT

2.09 GAA

0.926 SV%

Man, what an average goalie. Those mediocre stats would only be good enough for 6th in Sv%(off of 4th place by 0.01) and 4th in GAA (ahead of Brodeur in both those categories).

You're right-- if we ignore statistics, he's played average lately.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Needs more threads like these, thanks Drake

You're welcome

[Doc Holiday 0]

Did Howard have a rough first 4 games of the season? Sure. But since then he's been money.

Jimmy Howard's stats since the start of November:

7W-4L-0OT

2.09 GAA

0.926 SV%

Man, what an average goalie. Those mediocre stats would only be good enough for 6th in Sv%(off of 4th place by 0.01) and 4th in GAA (ahead of Brodeur in both those categories).

You're right-- if we ignore statistics, he's played average lately.

Please point out to me where I said "average" in regards to Howard.

If we ignore what I said, we can say whatever we want!

[titanium2 867]

LGW morale... waning... Must... BUMP!

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Please point out to me where I said "average" in regards to Howard.

If we ignore what I said, we can say whatever we want!

Well you said he was good enough, no more, no less-- that sounds like "average" to me.

[Opie 308]

Well you said he was good enough, no more, no less-- that sounds like "average" to me.

This was my take as well, seems you put it if far fewer words though!

[Doc Holiday 0]

Well you said he was good enough, no more, no less-- that sounds like "average" to me.

I said he was what the Wings needed.

[dropkickshanahans 463]

WHAT WE HAVE HERE, IS A FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE!

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

WHAT WE HAVE HERE, IS A FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE!

Some men you just can't reach.

I've always thought that 2nd line was better for some reason.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

WHAT WE HAVE HERE, IS A FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE!

Well played.

[Guest Lidstromboli]

It's bona fide. Jimmy's a suitor.