salary cap

[Lonewuhf 47]

Are you ******* kidding me? Lol.

Deflection goals = less points the team earns for wins. I don't think I laughed this hard since... well since the "Howard doesn't win against playoff teams" debate.

Anyhow... cool story, bro. :wink:

Deflecting pucks into the net for a goal? What the hell are you even talking about? I figured what I said was obvious, but apparently I didn't type it out word for word and it confuses people that don't think before they reply.

Edited January 4, 2010 by Lonewuhf

[Miller Brew 0]

Deflecting pucks into the net for a goal? What the hell are you even talking about? I figured what I said was obvious, but apparently I didn't type it out word for word and it confuses people that don't think before they reply.

It's you, my friend, who doesn't 'get it'. You are sitting behind your little computer devaluing a deflection goal. I was merely pointing out if not for Holmstrom's goals, Wings could easily be in last place right now with not an iota of a chance, what-so-ever, to even fight for a playoff spot. They don't ask how, they ask how many. The point was, since you don't get it, Holmstrom's goals are just as meaningful as any other player in the NHL. The object of the game is to get more goals on the scoreboard than the opposition. You obvoulsy don't understand the objective of the game.

Btw, Ryan Smyth earns $6.2 million per year. Just food for thought.

[Lonewuhf 47]

It's you, my friend, who doesn't 'get it'. You are sitting behind your little computer devaluing a deflection goal. I was merely pointing out if not for Holmstrom's goals, Wings could easily be in last place right now with not an iota of a chance, what-so-ever, to even fight for a playoff spot. They don't ask how, they ask how many. The point was, since you don't get it, Holmstrom's goals are just as meaningful as any other player in the NHL. The object of the game is to get more goals on the scoreboard than the opposition. You obvoulsy don't understand the objective of the game.

Btw, Ryan Smyth earns $6.2 million per year. Just food for thought.

I never meant to say that deflection goals aren't counted the same as any other goal, and we definitely would be farther down in the s***ter without Holmstrom, but to say that it takes the same skill (thus meaning a player is worth the same amount) to deflect a puck in the net as it does to have a good shot is bad. Also, Holmstrom, with any other players, wouldn't have NEARLY the same amount of goals. Dats' goal slump is party due to the fact that a decent amount of his shots aren't counted as goals for him because Holmer touched the puck ever so slightly before it went into the net.

[Theophany 110]

Holmstrom is 36, how is he turning 38?

Cleary is one of my favorite players but my point is Cleary is a 20 goal scorer and makes $3.5 next year ($2.8 cap hit) and Holmstrom is had back to back 29 and 30 goals and is on pace for 32 goals this season. He could easily get a 1-year deal for $2.5m (or more) on the open market, but folks on LGW's think he's going to take a massive pay cut to stay in Detroit... Not gonna happen.

Btw, PKers can be had for $500k (see Eaves and Miller). So it's not like PKers can't be found... However, a 32 goal scorer isn't something that can just be had everyday. I'd be surprised if Holmer resigns for anything less than $1.9 million per year.

What really matters is the cap hit; most people don't care about how much the guys make year-to-year. Cleary is worth every penny of his cap hit because he's a goal scorer and PKer; he's a multi-faceted investment, as are Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

Homer has one facet of his game: he parks himself in front of the other team's goalie and screens the hell out of them. Oh, and he deflects pucks. He doesn't PK. He doesn't play very well in the defensive end. He doesn't get breakaways.

Add to that that he'll probably sign a multi-year contract and you'll see a cap hit of around $1-1.5m for Homer. He's not worth more to the team when he's as close as he's said he is to retirement.

[Miller Brew 0]

I never meant to say that deflection goals aren't counted the same as any other goal, and we definitely would be farther down in the s***ter without Holmstrom, but to say that it takes the same skill (thus meaning a player is worth the same amount) to deflect a puck in the net as it does to have a good shot is bad. Also, Holmstrom, with any other players, wouldn't have NEARLY the same amount of goals. Dats' goal slump is party due to the fact that a decent amount of his shots aren't counted as goals for him because Holmer touched the puck ever so slightly before it went into the net.

So Dats (or Lidstrom's) shots would go in net even if Holmer didn't deflect them? I guess I missed that game...

And if Holmstrom's job is so easy then why is there so few in the entire NHL that can do what Holmstrom does. Like I said in my last post, the only player that I know of that can compare to what Holmer does is Ryan Smyth in LA (formally in Colorado) who makes $6.2 million per year. There are lots of snipers in the NHL, there are lots of shooters in the NHL, but there is only one Holmstrom. I guess his skills aren't so unskillful after all since he's such a rare commodity.

Do you know why Holmstrom is one of the most hated players (by other fans and players) in the entire NHL? Because he is good at what he does. He pisses off goalies and defensemen and score big deflected ugly goals to help this team win. No matter how you try to devalue his goals, they are still goals that help this team win (and make the playoffs).

[Lonewuhf 47]

So Dats (or Lidstrom's) shots would go in net even if Holmer didn't deflect them? I guess I missed that game...

And if Holmstrom's job is so easy then why is there so few in the entire NHL that can do what Holmstrom does. Like I said in my last post, the only player that I know of that can compare to what Holmer does is Ryan Smyth in LA (formally in Colorado) who makes $6.2 million per year. There are lots of snipers in the NHL, there are lots of shooters in the NHL, but there is only one Holmstrom. I guess his skills aren't so unskillful after all since he's such a rare commodity.

Do you know why Holmstrom is one of the most hated players (by other fans and players) in the entire NHL? Because he is good at what he does. He pisses off goalies and defensemen and score big deflected ugly goals to help this team win. No matter how you try to devalue his goals, they are still goals that help this team win (and make the playoffs).

Way to completely put words in my mouth. And yes, some of those shots would have gone in, probably at least 50% of them. He's more use to the team as a screener than a goal scorer, and he should be paid as such. I realize his job isn't easy, but his job isn't to score goals either.

[Shady Ultima 40]

I realize his job isn't easy, but his job isn't to score goals either.

Pretty sure that's not true at all.

[DMAC 25 18]

We're going to have a lot of money because Lidstrom is likely going to retire and Holmstrom is going to get a big pay cut.

i think you have it backwards. i thought i heard homer is done after this year and lids will have to take a pay cut

[elriqo28 2]

Way to completely put words in my mouth. And yes, some of those shots would have gone in, probably at least 50% of them. He's more use to the team as a screener than a goal scorer, and he should be paid as such. I realize his job isn't easy, but his job isn't to score goals either.

that is his job actually. To stand in front of the net and score goals. The players intentionally shoot to a certain spot in hopes of Homer's deflection. I'm completely with Miller Brew on this argument. You are saying that Homer because most of his goals are deflection goals should make less money than other 20-30 goal scorers purely on the basis that he doesn't shoot the puck, but deflects it. That, my friend is ridonkulous! If anything after this year, he will make the same or more than last. Unless of course he goes on a cold streak the rest of the season.

[Echolalia 2,961]

I don't know about Homer getting a pay raise. Yeah, he's leading our team in goals this year, but this is equally due to a number of scorers being injured and under-performing as it is his own skill. Additionally, Homer's only real role on the team is to stand in front of the opposition's net and wreak havoc. Fortunately this does result in a number of goals, but that's all he is really responsible for. If this guy even stick-handles in the neutral zone Mickey Redmond starts cracking jokes about earning overtime. Let's face it: Homer is 36 years old, and getting paid 2.25M not to play defense, set up goals, penalty kill, cause penalties, grind, enforce, cause turnovers, skate fast, hang onto the puck for more than a second, or any other role that is associated with hockey, but just to park his ass in front of some goalie's face and tip in shots and rebounds. He has averaged around 40 points per year since 2000 and he's on pace to continue that streak right now. Additionally, Holland also needs to keep in mind that Homer has become more injury prone and he's getting older. That doesn't equate to a pay raise, or even a flat salary over two contracts, because everyone is predicting his value to depreciate as time goes on, regardless of what kind of year he has right now.

Having said that, 40 points is definitely something, especially when half of them consist of power play goals. 1M is still too low for this guy.

I imagine he'll re-sign somewhere in the ballpark of 1.5-1.75M.

Edited January 4, 2010 by Echolalia

[Miller Brew 0]

I don't know about Homer getting a pay raise. Yeah, he's leading our team in goals this year, but this is equally due to a number of scorers being injured and under-performing as it is his own skill. Additionally, Homer's only real role on the team is to stand in front of the opposition's net and wreak havoc. Fortunately this does result in a number of goals, but that's all he is really responsible for. If this guy even stick-handles in the neutral zone Mickey Redmond starts cracking jokes about earning overtime. Let's face it: Homer is 36 years old, and getting paid 2.25M not to play defense, set up goals, penalty kill, cause penalties, grind, enforce, cause turnovers, skate fast, hang onto the puck for more than a second, or any other role that is associated with hockey, but just to park his ass in front of some goalie's face and tip in shots and rebounds. He has averaged around 40 points per year since 2000 and he's on pace to continue that streak right now. Additionally, Holland also needs to keep in mind that Homer has become more injury prone and he's getting older. That doesn't equate to a pay raise, or even a flat salary over two contracts, because everyone is predicting his value to depreciate as time goes on, regardless of what kind of year he has right now.

Having said that, 40 points is definitely something, especially when half of them consist of power play goals. 1M is still too low for this guy.

I imagine he'll re-sign somewhere in the ballpark of 1.5-1.75M.

I honestly do not remember anyone, what-so-ever, in this thread state that Holmstrom deserves a pay raise. If I am wrong then I encourage you to copy & paste the post that you think says Holmer should get a pay raise. I think you misread or failed to read this thread. The argument was someone thinks Holmstrom will accept a $1 million dollar deal. My question is do many 32 goal scorers get paid $1 million dollar per year? I stated that I would be surprised if Holmstrom takes less than $1.9 million to stay on the Wings. I also said that I think he could fetch $2.5 or more on the open market.

There are lots of teams trying to groom a player to do what Holmstrom does. In all cases, they are unsuccessful. Holmstrom is the only true demolition man in the NHL. The closest player there is that can do what Holmer does is Ryan Smyth (he is only 2 or 3 years younger than Holmer) and gets paid $6.2 million per year.

I just think some people are unrealistic. That's all.

[Echolalia 2,961]

Miller Brew:

If anything after this year, he will make the same or more than last.

Its the post right above the mine.

Edited January 4, 2010 by Echolalia

[CenterIce 83]

I know it's hard for some to face, but just like the Hossa situation when everyone thought for sure we'd keep Hossa, Franzen and Hudler only a few of us had realistic expectations. Just like with Lidstrom. He stated on record before his last signing that he would be happy to just retire so he could raise his kids in Sweden [paraphrased]. The guy is 40 years old and has nothing else to prove. His elbow is ailing him and, as he stated before, he would be happy to retire.

It's my opinion (like the Hossa deal everyone thought he was a lock to stay in Detroit - only few would accept the fact that he was a rental) that Lidstrom is likely going to retire after his contract is up.

Lidstrom had said before the last few signings that he might return to Sweden, but he never did. He also said around the time of his last signing that his kids were Westernized, and he wasn't as big on going back to Sweden, as he used to be. He will probably do what Stevie did his last few years. Sign a few 1 year deals, some where around 5-6 million, until he decides to retire.

[CenterIce 83]

Detroit would make a big mistake if they didn't do something with Lidstroms cap money, assuming he straight out retires, or takes a huge salary cut. Bertuzzi could and probably should be re-signed at like 2.5 million, sign Helm, Howard etc to short and cheap extentions. Wings should keep around 5-6 million and sign a big name player.

Why? Take 7 million of Lidstroms salary, give it to Kovelchuk, and sign all our rookies to cheap extensions. No one currently on the roster deserves a big pay raise anyways. Helm, Abby, Howard have earned extensions, but at no more money. Bertuzzi maybe deserves a 1 million raise, but other then that, Wings should have money to play with.

What has been rumored in the press is that Kovalchuck wants the max contract. Detroit cannot afford that.

[CenterIce 83]

include filppula in a deal for kovalchuk and it all works out. or maybe cleary? does his NTC run out or is it through to the end of his contract?

Holland has said that they are more willing to go with the players they have in their system, since they know how they have developed. They took a flyer on Hossa, because they had the money. They don't now. I do not see them trading players for a guy who wants the maximum allowable salary.

[Miller Brew 0]

Miller Brew:

Its the post right above the mine.

I wouldn't be surprised if he got nearly what he get's paid now. But I hope we can keep him for a few hundred thousand less... If we were to lose Holmstrom then we need to replace him with a 30-goal scorer. I can't think of any UFA proven 30+goal scorer willing to take $1 million per year. Hell even $2.5 million wouldn't be easy. Heck, Mikael Samuelsson only averages 15 goals per season and he makes $2.5 million.

[Echolalia 2,961]

I wouldn't be surprised if he got nearly what he get's paid now. But I hope we can keep him for a few hundred thousand less... If we were to lose Holmstrom then we need to replace him with a 30-goal scorer. I can't think of any UFA proven 30+goal scorer willing to take $1 million per year. Hell even $2.5 million wouldn't be easy. Heck, Mikael Samuelsson only averages 15 goals per season and he makes $2.5 million.

I don't expect Holland to give him any more than 2M, considering his role with the team, his history of injuries, his age, and the demanding toll that his role takes on his body. Also, where are you getting this 30 goals business from?

[Red Crazy 201]

If Homer dosen't retire he will get a one year extension at probabley 2m. Holland will not go longer then 1 maybe 2 years at best with Homer due to his age ( Contracts have to be payed out if they are signed after the player turns 35 even if they retire) therefor his caphit will be pretty much what he signs for. Those who think that he will sign for 1m are dreaming. Homer knows what he is worth and so does Holland.

If Lidstrom dosen't retire I can see him taking a bit of a paycut. However there hasen't been any talks about an extension for him so I am guessing that retirement might be a strong possibility.

Just my thoughts.

[Miller Brew 0]

I don't expect Holland to give him any more than 2M, considering his role with the team, his history of injuries, his age, and the demanding toll that his role takes on his body. Also, where are you getting this 30 goals business from?

Umm, Yahoo!, ESPN, Wikipedia and Sports Illustrated player stats by using a simple Google search. Back to back 29 and 30 goals, 20 goals in only 59 games played the year after his back-2-back and on pace for 32 goals this year. Since Babcock became coach in Detroit, Holmstrom has been a consistent 30-goal scorer (besides his 50-ish games played seasons), but since Holmer had both of his testicles removed, he looks much better. Though his voice seems to be a bit more higher-pitched during interviews.

[Echolalia 2,961]

Umm, Yahoo!, ESPN, Wikipedia and Sports Illustrated player stats by using a simple Google search. Back to back 29 and 30 goals, 20 goals in only 59 games played the year after his back-2-back and on pace for 32 goals this year. Since Babcock became coach in Detroit, Holmstrom has been a consistent 30-goal scorer (besides his 50-ish games played seasons), but since Holmer had both of his testicles removed, he looks much better. Though his voice seems to be a bit more higher-pitched during interviews.

I wouldn't be so quick to call Homer a consistent 30-goal scorer when he's only actually scored 30 goals once in his entire career.

[Miller Brew 0]

I wouldn't be so quick to call Homer a consistent 30-goal scorer when he's only actually scored 30 goals once in his entire career.

Okay, I'll play along....

Holmstrom is a consistent 29-goal scorer. While Ryan Smyth earns $6.2 million and can scores approx 27 to 36 goals per (when healthy).

Holmstrom scored 29 goals in 2006

Holmstrom scored 30 goals in 2007

Holmstrom was on pace for 28 goals in 2008 (played 59 games)

Holmstrom was on pace for 26-27 goals in 08-09 (played 52 games)

Holmstrom is on pace for 32 goals in 2010

Guess rounding off is a cardinal sin because it doesn't help your argument. Listen, I don't care what your argument is, he's worth more than $1 million (his worth is closer to $2 million and $2.5+ on the open market) and people here think players will sign in Detroit for more than 50% less than there open market value is worth.

Just 1 year or so ago people on LGWs were posting that Wings/Holland was going to resign all of Zetterberg, Franzen, Hudler, and Hossa and still be under cap. They had Franzen at $2.5 million, Zetterberg at $4 million, Hossa for $4 million, Hudler at $1.5-$2 million (or something like that). Now they have Holmstrom at $1 million. Worse than Chicago fans, they think they are going to trade Byfuglien for Kovalchuck and he'll sign a long term deal in Chicago for $5.5 million.

Edited January 4, 2010 by Miller Brew

[Echolalia 2,961]

Okay, I'll play along....

Holmstrom is a consistent 29-goal scorer. While Ryan Smyth earns $6.2 million and can scores approx 27 to 36 goals per (when healthy).

Holmstrom scored 29 goals in 2006

Holmstrom scored 30 goals in 2007

Holmstrom was on pace for 28 goals in 2008 (played 59 games)

Holmstrom was on pace for 26-27 goals in 08-09 (played 52 games)

Holmstrom is on pace for 32 goals in 2010

Guess rounding off is a cardinal sin because it doesn't help your argument. Listen, I don't care what your argument is, he's worth more than $1 million (his worth is closer to $2 million and $2.5+ on the open market) and people here think players will sign in Detroit for more than 50% less than there open market value is worth.

Just 1 year or so ago people on LGWs were posting that Wings/Holland was going to resign all of Zetterberg, Franzen, Hudler, and Hossa and still be under cap. They had Franzen at $2.5 million, Zetterberg at $4 million, Hossa for $4 million, Hudler at $1.5-$2 million (or something like that). Now they have Holmstrom at $1 million. Worse than Chicago fans, they think they are going to trade Byfuglien for Kovalchuck and he'll sign a long term deal in Chicago for $5.5 million.

Whoa slow down bucko, I agree with you that he's worth more than 1M. You may recall I've been throwing out numbers between 1.5 and 2M for him. My argument is that he is not a consistent 30 goal scorer. I also don't consider 2 seasons out of 12 as the grounds to consider someone a consistent 29 goal scorer either. I don't buy the "he was on pace" nonsense. If he didn't do it, then he didn't do it. Physicality is a big part of his game and injuries are to be expected. It doesn't matter if a player is on pace for a 100 goal season if they never play more than 20 games. Also, comparing him to Ryan Smyth isn't realistic either, because Smyth has more than one facet to his game. Sure he's awesome at tipping and playing right in front of the crease, but he also knows how to play hockey on other parts of the ice, something that Homer avoids for his team's sake. Smyth's salary is a testament to that. He's also grossly overpaid, which is another no-no when making comparisons to defend how much someone should or should not make.

Again, Homer will most likely end up between 1.5 to 1.75M.

[Theophany 110]

Now they have Holmstrom at $1 million. Worse than Chicago fans, they think they are going to trade Byfuglien for Kovalchuck and he'll sign a long term deal in Chicago for $5.5 million.

You know, you could just say that it's me that has Homer re-signing for $1m. But I believe I said $1-1.5m.

I also don't know why you of all people are speculating about contracts or attempting to flame people that are talking about contracts; you have a notable lack of knowledge about them, proved by not knowing what a two-way contract entails.

Homer is a one-dimensional player, and he's getting older. He's going to sign for less than he's currently making, as he's over 35. The only player that I've ever seen sign for more money after they've turned 35 was Nick Lidstrom, and he's...Nick Lidstrom.

Your estimate of $2-2.5 is as unrealistic as my lowest estimate of $1m. Homer will likely make more around $1.5-1.75m (probably like a two year deal for $3-3.5m).

[mmamolo 287]

I think it's fair to say that Holmstrom is a consistent 20 goal scorer with the potential to reach the high 20's or even 30. It's true that you don't find many mid 20's goal scorers on the open market for around $2M/yr but I don't think that is really goign to be a factor in determining a new contract for Holmstrom in Detroit.

A lot of ppl like to argue about players being on pace for goals and points but due to an injury they never made it. Although I do understand what is being said the fact is that player did get hurt and if he is prone to injuries that is something that should be noteworthy in contract negotations - as I think it was in the Todd Bertuzzi signing this summer.

For me Holmstrom is absolutely worth every penny of his contract (this year) and I beleive he will be resigned at season's end. Also, with a guy like Holmstrom, who has spent his entire career with the Wings, I don't think we have to worry too much about him looking around on the open market. I think that Holland and Holmstrom will sit down and agree on a fair one or two year contract - my preference would be for one. I am a big fan of players, towards the end of their careers, working on one year deals. I think Holland and YZerman set a very smart precedent for this.

In my mind Holmstrom resigns for one year at $1.6-1.8M.

I also think we see the same idea happen for Lidstrom. One year deals here on out.