egroen 384 Report post Posted February 8, 2010 (edited) no way in hell... He would probably PEAK at 120-130 and consistently be around 100, but with 4 lines rolling and the overall defensive nature of the position (as opposed to basically 5 forwards in the 80's) there's no way in hell he would come even CLOSE to his numbers he had back then - this is not to diminish what he did, or who he was, but be realistic... So in other words, a prime Gretzky is no better than Thornton, Crosby and a post-prime Jagr. Ok. Edited February 8, 2010 by egroen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevkrause 1,247 Report post Posted February 8, 2010 So in other words, a prime Gretzky is no better than Thornton, Crosby and a post-prime Jagr. Ok. Thornton has only broke 100 pts once since 05, same with Crosby and Jagr has never even broke 70 after 05... maybe 120-130 is a little low, so MAYBE 140-150 would be his peak, but Crosby's 120 is probably close to a career peak for him too with the way the game is played post lockout... he is better than all those players, but NO one is scoring EVEN CLOSE to 180 in today's game, let alone being a perennial 150... sorry, but the distance in ability is not THAT great... I'd go as far as to say with AO in the game, there'd be quite a few years he didn't win the scoring title if he was playing today and AO MIGHT be better... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dat's sick 1,002 Report post Posted February 8, 2010 Ovechkin will break all of Gretzky's records at some point during the next season. If he doesn't, I will eat a sandwich and enjoy it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevkrause 1,247 Report post Posted February 8, 2010 Ovechkin will break all of Gretzky's records at some point during the next season. If he doesn't, I will eat a sandwich and enjoy it. ham and cheese on wheat? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carman 387 Report post Posted February 8, 2010 Won't break the record. But Ovechkin along with Crosby are on the same level of dominance. Gretzky didn't have the competition in his era. It's unfair to say who are the better player and it's impossible to compare. I would just throw them in the same company and call it a day. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevkrause 1,247 Report post Posted February 8, 2010 Won't break the record. But Ovechkin along with Crosby are on the same level of dominance. Gretzky didn't have the competition in his era. It's unfair to say who are the better player and it's impossible to compare. I would just throw them in the same company and call it a day. exactly... apples to oranges... it's all speculation, but I think to even speculate that Gretzky would have been that dominant in today's game seems pretty ridiculous... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carman 387 Report post Posted February 8, 2010 exactly... apples to oranges... it's all speculation, but I think to even speculate that Gretzky would have been that dominant in today's game seems pretty ridiculous... I think it's pretty safe he would have much better competition. But I don't think it's out the question that he would adapt his game and still find a way to be dominant. I'd rather just throw the very best players of each era into one group and let it be. I see no use arguing over who dominated there peers more to determine who is better. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted February 8, 2010 Thornton has only broke 100 pts once since 05, same with Crosby and Jagr has never even broke 70 after 05... maybe 120-130 is a little low, so MAYBE 140-150 would be his peak, but Crosby's 120 is probably close to a career peak for him too with the way the game is played post lockout... he is better than all those players, but NO one is scoring EVEN CLOSE to 180 in today's game, let alone being a perennial 150... sorry, but the distance in ability is not THAT great... I'd go as far as to say with AO in the game, there'd be quite a few years he didn't win the scoring title if he was playing today and AO MIGHT be better... Alright, I can at least take this post more seriously than the last one -- You have to remember, Gretzky *did* play in the deadpuck era, when scorng was even lower than it is now. At the age of 37, a visibly hobbled and shadow-of-his-former-self Gretzky put up 97 points in 1997 and was 4th in league scoring. The next year, at the age of 38, he was 3rd in scoring with 90 pts in 1998. Both years he led the league in assists. He retired after the next year. No one is even close to 180 or even 150 pts in today's game because there is NO ONE like Gretzky, or even Lemieux. In his 20s, Gretzky was consistently destroying the next best scorers in the league by margins of 30-40%.... margins simply unheard of throughout the entire history of the NHL. Nowadays you see margins under 10%. Even if we assume Crosby, Thornton and Ovechkin are 'better' than guys like Steve Yzerman, Jaromir Jagr, Mike Bossy, Brian Trottier, Pat LaFontaine and Phil Esposito... all of whom were able to put up 140-150+ pts at the time, Gretzky was still able to destroy them by 60-80 pts. Yes, it was easier to score at the time, but it was easier for everyone.... not just Gretzky. Mario Lemieux scored 161 pts in the deadpuck era... and not even he could match Gretzky at his best. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FedorovGurl 2 Report post Posted February 8, 2010 Probably not. But if theres a player in the league who could, it would be Ovechkin. He is amazing! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevkrause 1,247 Report post Posted February 8, 2010 (edited) Alright, I can at least take this post more seriously than the last one -- You have to remember, Gretzky *did* play in the deadpuck era, when scorng was even lower than it is now. At the age of 37, a visibly hobbled and shadow-of-his-former-self Gretzky put up 97 points in 1997 and was 4th in league scoring. The next year, at the age of 38, he was 3rd in scoring with 90 pts in 1998. Both years he led the league in assists. He retired after the next year. No one is even close to 180 or even 150 pts in today's game because there is NO ONE like Gretzky, or even Lemieux. In his 20s, Gretzky was consistently destroying the next best scorers in the league by margins of 30-40%.... margins simply unheard of throughout the entire history of the NHL. Nowadays you see margins under 10%. Even if we assume Crosby, Thornton and Ovechkin are 'better' than guys like Steve Yzerman, Jaromir Jagr, Mike Bossy, Brian Trottier, Pat LaFontaine and Phil Esposito... all of whom were able to put up 140-150+ pts at the time, Gretzky was still able to destroy them by 60-80 pts. Yes, it was easier to score at the time, but it was easier for everyone.... not just Gretzky. Mario Lemieux scored 161 pts in the deadpuck era... and not even he could match Gretzky at his best. There also wasn't the same parity and both Gretzky and Lemieux he had some VERY high quality linemates as well... don't get me wrong, he's one of the best of all time, but I think his ability is overstated at times as well due to the nature of the game... as Carman stated, I think it is much more accurate and reasonable to throw them all in the same pool as the best to ever lace them up and call it a day *side note - If Howe had played in the 80's/early 90's, I wonder what his point totals would have been... Edited February 8, 2010 by stevkrause Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted February 8, 2010 Won't break the record. But Ovechkin along with Crosby are on the same level of dominance. Gretzky didn't have the competition in his era. It's unfair to say who are the better player and it's impossible to compare. I would just throw them in the same company and call it a day. How about Steve Yzerman? If we can agree Yzerman was a better offensive machine in the 80s than he was in the 2000s (in his 30s)... than your assumption is pretty easy to disprove. At the age of 34 in 2000, Yzerman was Top 10 in league scoring while winning a Selke. This is post-I don't know how many surgeries and with Yzerman playing a two-way game players like Ovechkin, Crosby, Thornton and Malkin could only dream of approaching, and Yzerman was also a leader in PK minutes that year. And yet Gretzky utterly demolished a prime, pre-injuries Yzerman who was not as shackled by defensive responsibilities by 50-100 pts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Lidstromboli Report post Posted February 8, 2010 Ovi will get closer to Jagr's point totals, realistically Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted February 8, 2010 (edited) There also wasn't the same parity and both Gretzky and Lemieux he had some VERY high quality linemates as well... don't get me wrong, he's one of the best of all time, but I think his ability is overstated at times as well due to the nature of the game... as Carman stated, I think it is much more accurate and reasonable to throw them all in the same pool as the best to ever lace them up and call it a day *side note - If Howe had played in the 80's/early 90's, I wonder what his point totals would have been... Gretzky also outproduced VERY high quality linemates by 100+ pts a season. In 1982, when Gretzky scored 212 pts: Glen Anderson was 2nd in scoring with 105 pts Paul Coffey had 89 pts Mark Messier had 88 pts Jari Kurri, Gretzky's linemate, had 86 pts I think a prime Gordie Howe would be a 130-160 pt beast on two skates, if he were playing in the league today (assuming he was born sometime in the 80s and grew up with similar advantages as all hockey players do today). A 180 pt player in the 80s. Edited February 8, 2010 by egroen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MacK_Attack 108 Report post Posted February 8, 2010 Gretz was a machine in his day. I don't think anybody will touch his records because not only did Wayne have his legendary playmaking ability, but he was the best goal scorer in the world when he wanted to be. 50 goals in 39 games, 894 goals, 1963 assists, 2857 points, 92 goals in a season, 163 assists in a season, 215 points in a season. I don't think we'll ever see anything like that again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carman 387 Report post Posted February 8, 2010 How about Steve Yzerman? If we can agree Yzerman was a better offensive machine in the 80s than he was in the 2000s (in his 30s)... than your assumption is pretty easy to disprove. At the age of 34 in 2000, Yzerman was Top 10 in league scoring while winning a Selke. This is post-I don't know how many surgeries and with Yzerman playing a two-way game players like Ovechkin, Crosby, Thornton and Malkin could only dream of approaching, and Yzerman was also a leader in PK minutes that year. And yet Gretzky utterly demolished a prime, pre-injuries Yzerman who was not as shackled by defensive responsibilities by 50-100 pts. I'm talking about the quality of players in the bottom of the lineups. 3rd and 4th liners in today's game are much more talented than the 3rd and 4th liners of the 80's. There were many quality European players that did not play in the NHL in Gretzky's time. Gretzky was the best player of his era, and more then likely the best player of all time. I just hate comparing eras. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevkrause 1,247 Report post Posted February 8, 2010 I'm talking about the quality of players in the bottom of the lineups. 3rd and 4th liners in today's game are much more talented than the 3rd and 4th liners of the 80's. There were many quality European players that did not play in the NHL in Gretzky's time. Gretzky was the best player of his era, and more then likely the best player of all time. I just hate comparing eras. I still think Howe was the best ever... to watch some of those old clips and what he was able to do with a tree trunk in his hand and a weird little metal blade strapped to a leather boot... imagine a prime Howe him in new Bauer Vapor skates and a composite stick... scary... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted February 8, 2010 I'm talking about the quality of players in the bottom of the lineups. 3rd and 4th liners in today's game are much more talented than the 3rd and 4th liners of the 80's. There were many quality European players that did not play in the NHL in Gretzky's time. Gretzky was the best player of his era, and more then likely the best player of all time. I just hate comparing eras. Then why wasn't Yzerman scoring 200 pts in the 80s/early-90s? Why was only Gretzky benefitting from this "lack of talent"? Yes, there were fewer Euros at the time -- but there were also fewer teams (about 10 fewer teams, in fact). Almost 10% of the league in the 80s was Euro... and that percentage is only about 20% today. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carman 387 Report post Posted February 8, 2010 Gretzky was only good because of Coffey and Kurri. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lidstrom for life 20 Report post Posted February 8, 2010 Honestly I think its more likely that Ovechkin puts together one unbelievable season and breaks the single season goals record than the all time goals record. Neither is going to happen but a 93 goal season actually seems more realistic than him having that many 50+ goal seasons in a row. Man those numbers are just insane. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevkrause 1,247 Report post Posted February 8, 2010 (edited) Then why wasn't Yzerman scoring 200 pts in the 80s/early-90s? Why was only Gretzky benefitting from this "lack of talent"? Yes, there were fewer Euros at the time -- but there were also fewer teams (about 10 fewer teams, in fact). Almost 10% of the league in the 80s was Euro... and that percentage is only about 20% today. Yzerman didn't have the same linemates early in his career and the Wings were HORRIBLE - bad comparison - from 1992-2000, Yzerman and Gretzky put up virtually the same point totals... and that is factoring in injuries both ways Edited February 8, 2010 by stevkrause Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hooon 1,089 Report post Posted February 8, 2010 There's no way he can reach Gretzky. What people don't seem to acknowledge enough is how many assists Gretzky had. His assist total alone is higher than any other player's point total. That was always pretty impressive to me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted February 8, 2010 Yzerman didn't have the same linemates early in his career and the Wings were HORRIBLE - bad comparison - from 1992-2000, Yzerman and Gretzky put up virtually the same point totals... and that is factoring in injuries both ways It was not Gretzky's linemates that made him (again, he was scoring over 100+ pts over his linemates). 1992 just happens to be the year Gretzky's injury problems started (he is also 4 1/2 years older than Yzerman) and he retired in 1999 -- from 1992 to 1999, Gretzky still outproduced Yzerman 715 pts to 683 pts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StevieY'sguy 1 Report post Posted February 8, 2010 I agreed with you on every thing until your last paragraph... I think not only will Ovechkin finish with more points than Crosby, but at least 2 other current NHL players will finish their careers with more points than him as well... Crosby is injury prone and is yet to play a full NHL season (although his first year basically was - 81 games) and I don't see him playing more than a couple seasons more than AO... You're basically proving yourself wrong, they have nearly identical points per game averages (Crosby 1.35 Ovi 1.34) so if Crosby plays a few more seasons than AO then he will almost certainly finish with more points, assuming they're points per game averages stay relatively the same (and since we have an almost complete 5 season sample, that seems very likely). You make a good point that Crosby has been injured in the past although i wouldn't say he's injury "prone" but Ovechkin's prognosis is very sketchy as well: he only missed 4 games in his first 4 seasons which, when you play as rambunctiously as he does, is bound to take a toll sooner or later and i think we're saw the beginning of that with his injury last fall. Also just out of curiosity who are the 2 other current NHL players that you think will end up with more career points than Crosby? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted February 8, 2010 (edited) I still think Howe was the best ever... to watch some of those old clips and what he was able to do with a tree trunk in his hand and a weird little metal blade strapped to a leather boot... imagine a prime Howe him in new Bauer Vapor skates and a composite stick... scary... Howe at his peak is rivaled by only Gretzky, Orr and Lemieux... but his career is better than all 3 of them. 20 years in the top 5 in league scoring!!! Gretzky did it 16 years and Lemieux only 9 times. Edited February 8, 2010 by egroen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carman 387 Report post Posted February 8, 2010 You're basically proving yourself wrong, they have nearly identical points per game averages (Crosby 1.35 Ovi 1.34) so if Crosby plays a few more seasons than AO then he will almost certainly finish with more points, assuming they're points per game averages stay relatively the same (and since we have an almost complete 5 season sample, that seems very likely). You make a good point that Crosby has been injured in the past although i wouldn't say he's injury "prone" but Ovechkin's prognosis is very sketchy as well: he only missed 4 games in his first 4 seasons which, when you play as rambunctiously as he does, is bound to take a toll sooner or later and i think we're saw the beginning of that with his injury last fall. Also just out of curiosity who are the 2 other current NHL players that you think will end up with more career points than Crosby? Don't even try. Red Wing fans will never give Crosby credit. They are complete homer's when it comes to him. Just give it up. I agree though, I believe Crosby has a better chance of a longer career than Ovechkin due to play style. Granted anything can happen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
