This just looks weird...

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

Rob Blake won the Norris with a minus rating. Not that he deserved it, but it's happened.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Babcock breaking up the defensive pairings had something to do with it.

Obviously, Lidstrom and Stuart aren't working out well together.

Agreed.

Lidstrom has had to make up for a lot of Stuart's mistakes lately.

The reason the Sedins were able to score on the powerplay twice was because Lidstrom had to cover two players in front of the net while Stuart was off in la la land.

I think that playing with the greatest defenseman in 20 years has caused him to feel invincible out there, and not in the good way.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Ahem...

PLUS/MINUS IS A MEANINGLESS STAT WHICH IS OF LESS VALUE TO TRACK THAN SHUTOUTS.

Thank you.

Oh come on, given how insanely you number crunch and use stats to twist arguments in your favor, I know you can put +/- to good use. No stat will ever be meaningless to you.

[stevkrause 1,247]

Agreed.

Lidstrom has had to make up for a lot of Stuart's mistakes lately.

The reason the Sedins were able to score on the powerplay twice was because Lidstrom had to cover two players in front of the net while Stuart was off in la la land.

I think that playing with the greatest defenseman in 20 years has caused him to feel invincible out there, and not in the good way.

He definitely needs to simplify his game... the pairing was STELLAR when first put together, but like you said, it's almost like Stuart has become too comfortable playing with one of the best of all time and is starting to take it for granted positionally...

I think they should put Salei with Stuart, so Stuart can become the offensive threat on the pairing and he can still play the right side where he seems to be more comfortable... Ericsson and Rafalski have been VERY good together (surprisingly) so I wouldn't break that combo up as long as it's working -

Lidstrom-Kronwall

Ericsson-Rafalski

Salei-Stuart

that's what I'd like to see right now...

[Guest mjtm77]

I don't know if this should be a topic but today I was looking at stats and saw that Lids was only a plus 1 this was an eye opener for me. I know that he is playing great offensively but his plus minus shows that he is not up to par defensively. Why is every one talking like Lidstrom is hands down going to walk away with the norris? Look at someone like Letang who is a plus 19 or even Byfuglien who has more points than Lids has a better plus minus at plus 8. Byfuglien is also playing on a way weaker team.

Discuss

[Shaman 713]

I don't know if this should be a topic but today I was looking at stats and saw that Lids was only a plus 1 this was an eye opener for me. I know that he is playing great offensively but his plus minus shows that he is not up to par defensively. Why is every one talking like Lidstrom is hands down going to walk away with the norris? Look at someone like Letang who is a plus 19 or even Byfuglien who has more points than Lids has a better plus minus at plus 8. Byfuglien is also playing on a way weaker team.

Discuss

Well, first Byfuglien isn't really a defenseman, hes a 4th forward, if you watched him play at all this year hes been mediocre at defense. Lidstrom's defense has been very good this year, and if you knew anything about hockey you'd realize +/- is not the stat that makes or break defensemen. The best indicators for defenseman are minutes played, who they are playing with (Byfuglien's defense partner has bailed him out a LOT this year), who they are playing against, among a lot of other things. I would really start watching more hockey before you talk out of your ass.

[crispychris 45]

We still have a few game left this season. I'm thinking #5's +/- will get better.

[Guest mjtm77]

Well, first Byfuglien isn't really a defenseman, hes a 4th forward, if you watched him play at all this year hes been mediocre at defense. Lidstrom's defense has been very good this year, and if you knew anything about hockey you'd realize +/- is not the stat that makes or break defensemen. The best indicators for defenseman are minutes played, who they are playing with (Byfuglien's defense partner has bailed him out a LOT this year), who they are playing against, among a lot of other things. I would really start watching more hockey before you talk out of your ass.

Iam pretty sure I watch and know alot more about hockey then you think. I am not saying Lids is a bad or that plus minuis is everything. Iam starting the thread to discuss why Lids has such a bad plus minus and why other guys like Letang are not getting lots of consideration for the Norris. You should stop being bias that Lids is hands down to win the Norris. You guys on here always use to refer to plus minus when discussing how good Lids is. edit- if Byfuglien was playing forward he sure as hell would not be a fourth line forward

Edited December 30, 2010 by mjtm77

[T.Low 1,011]

There are multiple things I do like about these current pairings.

-Raffi and Lids are some of the best puck moving defensemen in the NHL, and Kronner is no slouch either. So with Raffi and Lids split up, we now have a great puck moving outlet passer on all three pairings, which bodes well for all the offense we have spread throughout the 4 forward lines.

-This also helps to keep Lids minutes down, as the are spread more evenly through the three pairings.

-Stuart was playing a more basic game early on and it looked like a good pairing. Now he is trying more things and getting a little more involved in the offense and is getting caught up ice a little more. This is the time of year to try to push the envelope, expand comfort levels thru trial and error. Because of all of this, it seems like two to three times a game Lids is getting praised by the announcers for breaking up a 2 on 1 rush. Holy s***. But thats the price you pay.

-Of course Lids himself is up in the offense a lot more than last year. Seems he is often in clsoe to the top of the faceoff circle or mid slot for a slapper like last nights goal.

-It also adds a little toughness to each line: Stuie, Kronner, and ERock. And I am really happy with the way Salei is fitting in; he is doing a great job and proving to be a bargain.

Edited December 30, 2010 by T.Low

[Joey v3.4 45]

I don't know if this should be a topic but today I was looking at stats and saw that Lids was only a plus 1 this was an eye opener for me. I know that he is playing great offensively but his plus minus shows that he is not up to par defensively. Why is every one talking like Lidstrom is hands down going to walk away with the norris? Look at someone like Letang who is a plus 19 or even Byfuglien who has more points than Lids has a better plus minus at plus 8. Byfuglien is also playing on a way weaker team.

Discuss

Byfuglien, as stated before, is practically a forward. His defensive skills are mediocre. As a Defenseman he would be a 3rd pair on a lot of teams, but he has a lot of size, and offensive potential.

He is outscoring Lidstrom, but if you watch his games, he goes deep a lot, and literally beats the crap out of people to open up ice.

He's actually a really smart person to have on defense. His scoring is that of a forward, and he has the size to play defense, but he is by no means the best "Defense-man" in the league.

The best offensive defense-man? Sure...the points and stats will tell you that.

I'm not taking away any of Buffs accolades, he has identified himself as a very capable, and a VERY flexible player. Honestly, he's one of my favorite players, especially now that he's not with Chicago

A lot of the goals against Lidstrom (Hence earning his negatives) are generally caused by his pairing, and other factors. Usually +/- is a very reliable stat, but in this situation I do not believe that it is.

Lidstrom has won games for us this season. He scored his first hat trick. He is second in scoring in the league among defense, and tied for first for goals among defense (I think...maybe Buff has more, didn't verify the stat). Either way he's up there. His plus/minus I believe is bit misleading this year.

He's a little older, and makes a few more mistakes, but for a man at the age of 40, his game has been phenomenal.

Also to note, is that he's the captain. While that doesn't figure into the Norris Trophy argument usually, I think in this situation it's hard to deny. You can't be a defense on the top team in the league, and be the captain of said team, and not get some credit.

I don't think Lidstrom is a shoe-in for the Norris, but Buff should not beat him out. It's "Best Defenseman", not most "Offensive Defenseman".

If the latter was how it worked, you could put Ovechkin on Defense, and he'd win the Norris every year.

There is a lot to defense, that is not reflected well in stats. They try, by tracking hits, take aways, turnovers, Plus/mins, so on....but what Lidstrom does out there often supersedes these things.

[Guest mindfly]

I don't know if this should be a topic but today I was looking at stats and saw that Lids was only a plus 1 this was an eye opener for me. I know that he is playing great offensively but his plus minus shows that he is not up to par defensively. Why is every one talking like Lidstrom is hands down going to walk away with the norris? Look at someone like Letang who is a plus 19 or even Byfuglien who has more points than Lids has a better plus minus at plus 8. Byfuglien is also playing on a way weaker team.

Discuss

You can all blame Stuart for his poor +/-

[Electrophile 3,554]

You know, I was just reading this thread and I said to myself that the only thing it was missing was mindfly being negative about something.

Then he posted.

It was like he read my mind or something.

Amazing.

[atodaso 279]

edit- if Byfuglien was playing forward he sure as hell would not be a fourth line forward

i think he meant when he's out on the ice he's practically a fourth forward

edit: as far as why some of these other guys aren't being talked about for the norris so far this season could be partly due to the fact that the norris is a bit of a reputation trophy. usually it's not enough to have one great season and be considered for the norris unless you are by far clearly the best defenceman in the league. the other thing is stats don't tell the whole story. take for example fillpula; a lot of people here don't like him much because they think he should score more points, neglecting his great positioning and defence.

Edited December 30, 2010 by atodaso

[Joey v3.4 45]

You can all blame Stuart for his poor +/-

Then how do you explain Stuarts +7?

I love Mindfly's cynicism, though the facts sometimes don't line up with his thesis

[Guest mjtm77]

Byfuglien, as stated before, is practically a forward. His defensive skills are mediocre. As a Defenseman he would be a 3rd pair on a lot of teams, but he has a lot of size, and offensive potential.

He is outscoring Lidstrom, but if you watch his games, he goes deep a lot, and literally beats the crap out of people to open up ice.

He's actually a really smart person to have on defense. His scoring is that of a forward, and he has the size to play defense, but he is by no means the best "Defense-man" in the league.

The best offensive defense-man? Sure...the points and stats will tell you that.

I'm not taking away any of Buffs accolades, he has identified himself as a very capable, and a VERY flexible player. Honestly, he's one of my favorite players, especially now that he's not with Chicago

A lot of the goals against Lidstrom (Hence earning his negatives) are generally caused by his pairing, and other factors. Usually +/- is a very reliable stat, but in this situation I do not believe that it is.

Lidstrom has won games for us this season. He scored his first hat trick. He is second in scoring in the league among defense, and tied for first for goals among defense (I think...maybe Buff has more, didn't verify the stat). Either way he's up there. His plus/minus I believe is bit misleading this year.

He's a little older, and makes a few more mistakes, but for a man at the age of 40, his game has been phenomenal.

Also to note, is that he's the captain. While that doesn't figure into the Norris Trophy argument usually, I think in this situation it's hard to deny. You can't be a defense on the top team in the league, and be the captain of said team, and not get some credit.

I don't think Lidstrom is a shoe-in for the Norris, but Buff should not beat him out. It's "Best Defenseman", not most "Offensive Defenseman".

If the latter was how it worked, you could put Ovechkin on Defense, and he'd win the Norris every year.

There is a lot to defense, that is not reflected well in stats. They try, by tracking hits, take aways, turnovers, Plus/mins, so on....but what Lidstrom does out there often supersedes these things.

I completey agree that Buff wont win. I just added him cause he had more points and a better plus minus

[Shaman 713]

Iam pretty sure I watch and know alot more about hockey then you think. I am not saying Lids is a bad or that plus minuis is everything. Iam starting the thread to discuss why Lids has such a bad plus minus and why other guys like Letang are not getting lots of consideration for the Norris. You should stop being bias that Lids is hands down to win the Norris. You guys on here always use to refer to plus minus when discussing how good Lids is. edit- if Byfuglien was playing forward he sure as hell would not be a fourth line forward

If the person knows anything about hockey they don't talk about plus minus as a main point, they point out how hes always in position, hes always making the right play at the right time and how hes playing against the other teams top players and still racking up points and playing great defense. His plus minus is good, but its definitely not what people who know about hockey look at to say 'Lidstrom is one of the best ever.' And from this post and your past posts you really don't know too much, Letang's +/- and points aren't because hes so good, its because hes on the ice with Crosby, I could have 20+ points and a good +/-if I were on the ice with him.

[Guest mjtm77]

If the person knows anything about hockey they don't talk about plus minus as a main point, they point out how hes always in position, hes always making the right play at the right time and how hes playing against the other teams top players and still racking up points and playing great defense. His plus minus is good, but its definitely not what people who know about hockey look at to say 'Lidstrom is one of the best ever.' And from this post and your past posts you really don't know too much, Letang's +/- and points aren't because hes so good, its because hes on the ice with Crosby, I could have 20+ points and a good +/-if I were on the ice with him.

Realize I am not saying that Lids wont win the Norris. The topic is suppose to be a discussion of how Lids is having a record low plus minus year and how someone like letang is at a plus 19. I don’t care how he got it he is a plus 19. Green got votes to win a Norris. Was his plus minus a plus 39 because of his defensive play? It was not and he still got Norris votes. Did I ever say Letangs plus minus was because he was good at defense? and my past posts have mainly been how Crosby is better than Ovechkin yet none of you exept mindfly agree. Clearly Crosby is better than Ovi.

[Shaman 713]

Realize I am not saying that Lids wont win the Norris. The topic is suppose to be a discussion of how Lids is having a record low plus minus year and how someone like letang is at a plus 19. I don’t care how he got it he is a plus 19. Green got votes to win a Norris. Was his plus minus a plus 39 because of his defensive play? It was not and he still got Norris votes. Did I ever say Letangs plus minus was because he was good at defense? and my past posts have mainly been how Crosby is better than Ovechkin yet none of you exept mindfly agree. Clearly Crosby is better than Ovi.

So I really don't see your point, your first post was to the effect that his plus minus is low so he shouldn't be such a slam dunk choice for the award for best defenseman, I counter with +/- isn't a great indicator and that Letang and Byfuligen have high +/- because of circumstances other than defensive play, you agree, I really don't see what you're trying to argue anymore.

[Guest mjtm77]

So I really don't see your point, your first post was to the effect that his plus minus is low so he shouldn't be such a slam dunk choice for the award for best defenseman, I counter with +/- isn't a great indicator and that Letang and Byfuligen have high +/- because of circumstances other than defensive play, you agree, I really don't see what you're trying to argue anymore.

All of you guys think Lids is going to win the Norris no matter what. I am trying to say that there are other defensemen with better stats that the voters could vote for. And second I thought it was diffrent that Lids is only plus 1 he is on pace for around a plus 2. He will not do that bad but the guy has never had a minus year in his whole carrer and he is pushing that know. I thought it would be worth discussing not trying to argue.

Edited December 30, 2010 by mjtm77

[Shaman 713]

All of you guys think Lids is going to win the Norris no matter what. I am trying to say that there are other defensemen with better stats that the voters could vote for. And second I thought it was diffrent that Lids is only plus 1 he is on pace for around a plus 2. He will not do that bad but the guy has never had a minus year in his whole carrer and he is pushing that know. I thought it would be worth discussing not trying to argue.

But again, Letang and Byfuligens stats are inflated and do not reflect their DEFENSIVE play.

[egroen 384]

Thrashers fans have argued Enstrom is their Norris candidate and Buff is their Hart candidate.

[Shady Ultima 40]

I'd argue that Buff has a better chance at Hart than Norris. The guy has helped that team out a LOT.

Lids has a great shot for Norris because of the fact that he's having a phenomenal year. A +1 so far really means NOTHING. He's been better offensively than ever, yet he's still amazing defensively. We are being scored on a LOT more this year than usual though, which could be effecting his +/-. But the people that vote pay enough attention that they're going to vote for players who play well.

Although Green is an anomaly, he's horrible in his own end.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

Thrashers fans have argued Enstrom is their Norris candidate and Buff is their Hart candidate.

I'm sure all three of them have very astute observations.

[HankthaTank 1,100]

Pretty skewed. With Jimmy having mental issues, no Pav and Cleary, and consistently seeing disastrous plays lead to goals with him on the ice, this will go up come February.