gritty players I would like the wings to sign

[newfy 695]

Thats right folks a guy who in almost 200 games scored 22 points will somehow score 20 points in 82, I don't think he could score 20 on Crosby's wing.

Yeah a guy who cracked the NHL 2 seasons ago first making it as an enforcer than carving a decent little niche as a faceoff specialist has no room to improve, even though hes been improving every single year.

You dont think he could get 10 more points, 10 whole points by playing with Helm ( who could be a second liner on some teams) and some combo of Eaves or Mursak instead of playing with a combination of Trevor Gillies, Matt Martin and Micheal Haley?

Or how about in hia first full year when his primary linemate was Todd Fedoruk who had recently had his face shattered and was a shadow of what he once was?

If you dont honestly dont think Konopka can get 10 more points playing with Helm, Eaves, Abdelkader and Mursak instead of Gillies, Haley and Martin than you have no grasp on the game of hockey whatsoever.

To compare, Helm and Eaves combined for 52 points this past season.

All of Konopkas linemates the last 2 seasons had 35 points COMBINED over the last 2 years, Helm and Eaves had 52 just this past year. So do you still think playing with guys like Helm and Eaves he could put up another 8,9,10 points?

[Shaman 713]

Still over minimum. You make it sound like the Islanders were his last resort. He had a few other offers last summer. He chose where he thought he'd get the most playing time. So let me ask again, if you put one of our bottom 6 guys (Helm, Draper, Eaves, Miller, etc.) on a line with Trevor Gillies and Michael Haley, would they score 20 points?

Between Gillies and Haley they played 39 and 25 games respectively, so its not like he spent the whole season with them, so thats a non point.

But if any team thought he had 20 point potential with his other skills they would have signed him, but he played for one of the worst teams in the NHL with s***ty linemates that seems to be a vote of no confidence for his ability to produce offensively.

[Shaman 713]

Yeah a guy who cracked the NHL 2 seasons ago first making it as an enforcer than carving a decent little niche as a faceoff specialist has no room to improve, even though hes been improving every single year.

You dont think he could get 10 more points, 10 whole points by playing with Helm ( who could be a second liner on some teams) and some combo of Eaves or Mursak instead of playing with a combination of Trevor Gillies, Matt Martin and Micheal Haley?

Or how about in hia first full year when his primary linemate was Todd Fedoruk who had recently had his face shattered and was a shadow of what he once was?

If you dont honestly dont think Konopka can get 10 more points playing with Helm, Eaves, Abdelkader and Mursak instead of Gillies, Haley and Martin than you have no grasp on the game of hockey whatsoever.

To compare, Helm and Eaves combined for 52 points this past season.

All of Konopkas linemates the last 2 seasons had 35 points COMBINED over the last 2 years, Helm and Eaves had 52 just this past year. So do you still think playing with guys like Helm and Eaves he could put up another 8,9,10 points?

Because its his line mates that cause him to suck, but if you say that about Hudler, obviously thats not true. This is a poor argument, if he had offensive ability why would he not show it? why would any coach put him on a line that wouldn't utilize his obvious offensive prowess?

Edited May 20, 2011 by Shaman464

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

Between Gillies and Haley they played 39 and 25 games respectively, so its not like he spent the whole season with them, so thats a non point.

But if any team thought he had 20 point potential with his other skills they would have signed him, but he played for one of the worst teams in the NHL with s***ty linemates that seems to be a vote of no confidence for his ability to produce offensively.

You make it seem like teams can ****** whatever player they want. Konopka went to Long Island for playing time. "if teams thought he had potential, they would've signed him." He got offers from other teams, he wanted playing time. He also played with Matt Martin and Blake Comeau, who played in 68 and 77 games respectively. Still a "non-point"?

[WorkingOvertime 536]

Between Gillies and Haley they played 39 and 25 games respectively, so its not like he spent the whole season with them, so thats a non point.

But if any team thought he had 20 point potential with his other skills they would have signed him, but he played for one of the worst teams in the NHL with s***ty linemates that seems to be a vote of no confidence for his ability to produce offensively.

Did you not read the post that stated Konopka chose to play for the Isles because of the playing time he would get there to, you know, develop his game? As far as Gillies is concerned, he did only play 39 games mostly due to suspensions. Therefore, Konopka played the rest of the games with players deemed less skilled than Gillies by the Isle's organization.

Is Abdelkader also not capable of producing 20 points because he only put up 6 when playing mostly with Maltby and May? Your argument doesn't hold. As has been stated in this thread many times, Konopka has the potential and hasn't been given the linemates to reach that potential. See his AHL number for confirmation on this (56 points and 187 PIMS for 70 games).

Players with potential that can fight aren't always picked up right away, and they don't always show their potential right away either. Prust never had more than 14 points in a season until this year when he had 29. I suppose he would have also been a bad signing by your logic.

As Newfy pointed out, Konopka's linemates have had 35 points over the past two seasons. The fact that he managed 9 points this year isn't bad considering that fact.

Do you have any real argument aside from berating facts that you haven't shown to be completely factual, and that you present without full context?

[Shaman 713]

You make it seem like teams can ****** whatever player they want. Konopka went to Long Island for playing time. "if teams thought he had potential, they would've signed him." He got offers from other teams, he wanted playing time. He also played with Matt Martin and Blake Comeau, who played in 68 and 77 games respectively. Still a "non-point"?

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Blake Cameau 77 24 22 46

Seems he out scored Helm, Eaves, Miller and Draper, so I would say hes a better line mate than they are for offensive production. But what do I know, I mean who could tell 46>32.

It seems that his line mates had a few more than 35 points, but again why let facts get in the way of wanting an enforcer?

Edited May 20, 2011 by Shaman464

[newfy 695]

Because its his line mates that cause him to suck, but if you say that about Hudler, obviously thats not true. This is a poor argument, if he had offensive ability why would he not show it? why would any coach put him on a line that wouldn't utilize his obvious offensive prowess?

Haha listen to yourself, youre comparing a guy who has gotten shots with Datsyuk, Zetterberg etc to a player who played most of his time with Trevor Fricken Gillies, Micheal haley and Matt Martin. He doesnt have obvious offensive prowess, but 20 points doesnt require that duuuur.

Linemates do have an affect on how many points you put up believe it or not, noone buys that with Hudler anymore because he has been given PP time, top 6 play etc. If you dont think a change from the aforementioned linemates to Helm and Eaves could give Konopka 8-10 more points than do us all a favour and shut down your account. If you dont see how playing with Helm and Eaves could give you 10 more points than with Haley and Gillies than something is wrong... do you even watch hockey?

[WorkingOvertime 536]

Because its his line mates that cause him to suck, but if you say that about Hudler, obviously thats not true. This is a poor argument, if he had offensive ability why would he not show it? why would any coach put him on a line that wouldn't utilize his obvious offensive prowess?

Are you aware of the Islanders situation of trying to rebuild the team through youth and prospects? For their team, sticking their skill players on the fourth line while they develop isn't part of development plan. No one here is saying that Konopka is anything but a good fourth liner.

If Hudler played with May and Downey posters here would certainly blame him lack of production on the linemates. Hudler has not played with players like Gillies, Haley, or Martin all year. This argument is non-sensible.

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Blake Cameau 77 24 22 46

Seems he out scored Helm, Eaves, Miller and Draper, so I would say hes a better line mate than they are for offensive production. But what do I know, I mean who could tell 46>32.

It seems that his line mates had a few more than 35 points, but again why let facts get in the way of wanting an enforcer?

So he played a few games on a line with a guy who scored over 40 points, he should've lit the lamp every night!!! Nevermind the fact that he played with Martin, Haley, and Gillies for a good chunk of the year, those couple games with Blake Comeau should've skyrocketed his poimt total!! He must really suck!!! yikes.

Edited May 20, 2011 by Bring Back The Bruise Bros

[Shaman 713]

So he played a few games on a line with a guy who scored over 40 points, he should've lit the lamp every night!!! Nevermind the fact that he played with Martin, Haley, and Gillies for a good chunk of the year! He must really suck!!! yikes.

Nevermind none of those three other than Martin played more than 40 games. Come on, 20 is a pipe dream, I would say 15 would be realistic.

Edited May 20, 2011 by Shaman464

[WorkingOvertime 536]

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Blake Cameau 77 24 22 46

Seems he out scored Helm, Eaves, Miller and Draper, so I would say hes a better line mate than they are for offensive production. But what do I know, I mean who could tell 46>32.

It seems that his line mates had a few more than 35 points, but again why let facts get in the way of wanting an enforcer?

Didn't you claim to watch Isles games this year? Konopka certainly took multiple shifts with the top-3 lines, but that was not his lineup place. Shouldn't someone who watches Isles games be informed about this?

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

Nevermind none of those three played more than 40 games.

Matt Martin didn't play in more than 40 games? Keep diggin' that hole, brother.

[WorkingOvertime 536]

Nevermind none of those three other than Martin played more than 40 games. Come on, 20 is a pipe dream, I would say 15 would be realistic.

Therefore, Konopka rarely played with the same linemates. Having AHL level players rotate through your line isn't a recipe for success.

[newfy 695]

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Blake Cameau 77 24 22 46

Seems he out scored Helm, Eaves, Miller and Draper, so I would say hes a better line mate than they are for offensive production. But what do I know, I mean who could tell 46>32.

It seems that his line mates had a few more than 35 points, but again why let facts get in the way of wanting an enforcer?

Actualy if you look at who is most common linemates were the last 2 years, they did in fact score under 40 points combined the last 2 seasons. 2.2% of this season Konopka was matched up with Comeau, Bring bck the bruise bros just had some facts mixed up.

You almost had a point that made sense, but it turns out it was just a misunderstanding and you still look like you know nothing about hockey

[Shaman 713]

Matt Martin didn't play in more than 40 games? Keep diggin' that hole, brother.

I corrected my mistake before you made your comment. But again, you're being worse than the Flip slappies.

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

I corrected my mistake before you made your comment. But again, you're being worse than the Flip slappies.

I'm not saying Konopka is anything more than a decent 4th liner. I never said he'll score 50 points, but judging a guy's offensive capabilities when he's got Martin,Haley,Gillies, and on occasion Comeau around him is ridiculous.

[Shaman 713]

Actualy if you look at who is most common linemates were the last 2 years, they did in fact score under 40 points combined the last 2 seasons. 2.2% of this season Konopka was matched up with Comeau, Bring bck the bruise bros just had some facts mixed up.

You almost had a point that made sense, but it turns out it was just a misunderstanding and you still look like you know nothing about hockey

So personal attacks, I have never attacked you and your hockey knowledge, I may not like your personal views on who should and should not be on the wings, but I never insulted you. Obviously you don't have a point you can defend with evidence (IE 20 pts from Konopka) but only conjuncture based upon no evidence. I am using logical reasoning that Since Konopka is 30 years old, has not shown any real offensive upside (no matter his line mates)to say the chances of him getting 20 pts is low. I have backed this up with the idea that if GMs saw this potential he would have been on a different team, or been offered more money. Ice time may be a consideration, but playing for a contender is also one.

Also lets not say the last two seasons how much of his TENURE on the Islanders has he played with Comeau? This would be a much less skewed way to calculate this. Also please include your numbers.

[newfy 695]

So personal attacks, I have never attacked you and your hockey knowledge, I may not like your personal views on who should and should not be on the wings, but I never insulted you. Obviously you don't have a point you can defend with evidence (IE 20 pts from Konopka) but only conjuncture based upon no evidence. I am using logical reasoning that Since Konopka is 30 years old, has not shown any real offensive upside (no matter his line mates)to say the chances of him getting 20 pts is low. I have backed this up with the idea that if GMs saw this potential he would have been on a different team, or been offered more money. Ice time may be a consideration, but playing for a contender is also one.

Also lets not say the last two seasons how much of his TENURE on the Islanders has he played with Comeau? This would be a much less skewed way to calculate this. Also please include your numbers.

Well than dont make ridiculous statements like a guy cant go from having Gillies and Martin on his line to Helm and Eaves and improve by about 8 or 9 points. Do you not see how ridiculous that is? His 2 most common linesmantes the past 2 years combined have under 40 points while Helm and Eaves alone had 52 in one year. I said he could probably top out around 20 points, how is that ridiculous when he had 9 this year, that isnt even that big of an improvement.

Than you said 15 is more realistic than 20, so you wanna make that huge argument over 4 or 5 points? like come on, you wonder why I would call out your hockey knowledge.

The fact that he PKs and is one of, if not the best face off guy in the league, the most active fighter and can put up 15ish points sounds like a pretty solid 4th liner/13th forward

[Shaman 713]

Well than dont make ridiculous statements like a guy cant go from having Gillies and Martin on his line to Helm and Eaves and improve by about 8 or 9 points. Do you not see how ridiculous that is? His 2 most common linesmantes the past 2 years combined have under 40 points while Helm and Eaves alone had 52 in one year. I said he could probably top out around 20 points, how is that ridiculous when he had 9 this year, that isnt even that big of an improvement.

Than you said 15 is more realistic than 20, so you wanna make that huge argument over 4 or 5 points? like come on, you wonder why I would call out your hockey knowledge.

The fact that he PKs and is one of, if not the best face off guy in the league, the most active fighter and can put up 15ish points sounds like a pretty solid 4th liner/13th forward

Again we see why you want him on the team, you wouldn't care if he put up 5 points so long as he would drop the gloves, and in the process you would drop a player who is a very good PKer and a guy who has shown he can play at a 20 point pace (Miller had he played 82 games would have had 23 points both of the last two seasons)and is 3 years younger. I take track record over forum member's projections.

Edited May 20, 2011 by Shaman464

[Konnan511 1,736]

Put Abdelkader, Eaves, Helm, or Miller on a line with Trevor Gillies and Michael Haley and see how many points they rack up.

He actually played the majority of this season with Matt Martin and Jesse Jonsue (sp). Both good young players. Last season he played a lot with Fedoruk and Steve Downie. Downie is better than all the players you mentioned and Matt Martin will be too in a few years....if he doesn't turn into another Matt Cooke.

[Shaman 713]

He actually played the majority of this season with Matt Martin and Jesse Jonsue (sp). Both good young players. Last season he played a lot with Fedoruk and Steve Downie. Downie is better than all the players you mentioned and Matt Martin will be too in a few years....if he doesn't turn into another Matt Cooke.

Thank you Konnan, I wish these guys would just admit they want an enforcer and be done with it, instead of bending facts to make the player they want look better.

Steve Downie would be a dream for the wings, not going to happen but hes the kind of player I would love the wings to sign. Especially at a 1.85 cap hit.

Lets be honest here...Many of us knuckle-draggers scratch our heads as to what makes spare parts like Miller so valuable in the eyes of Red Wing fans...Konopka brings an element, a spark, getting the fans into the game, maybe an emotional lift for his teammates.

If ya ask me there were numerous times I thought the Red Wings resembled zombies with their lack of emotion, and indifferent play these past few seasons...1990's or not - Red Wings hockey was a hell of alot more fun to watch when we could beat up our opponents as well as beat them on the score board.

Welcome to the cap world of 2005 on. Sorry, but if I had to choose on its going to be the beating them on the score board and with the cap it seems you have to make this choice.

Edited May 20, 2011 by Shaman464

[kook_10 1,705]

So when is the coronation?

[Shaman 713]

So you replace Miller with Konopka...It's not as though we're talking about replacing Lidstrom with Shane Hnidy.

Like I said - Miller was, and is a spare part.

I like Miller, no rational reason, but I admit that .

[Konnan511 1,736]

So you replace Miller with Konopka...It's not as though we're talking about replacing Lidstrom with Shane Hnidy.

Like I said - Miller was, and is a spare part.

I actually threw up a little bit

[WorkingOvertime 536]

Again we see why you want him on the team, you wouldn't care if he put up 5 points so long as he would drop the gloves, and in the process you would drop a player who is a very good PKer and a guy who has shown he can play at a 20 point pace (Miller had he played 82 games would have had 23 points both of the last two seasons)and is 3 years younger. I take track record over forum member's projections.

If I (or Newfy) wanted a player like that on the Wings, we would be posting about MacIntyre and McGrattan instead of McCormick and Konopka.

Our argument is that Konopka can do at least 90% of what Miller can do offensively and on the PK at the same price while also being the Wings' enforcer. If you don't believe teams should carry enforcers, any argument you make in this thread is irrelevant because you have an underlying bias against these players (which it seems like you do). However, there are many posters here (inside and outside of this thread) who believe that a player like Konopka can do things other than score that can help the Wings win.