gritty players I would like the wings to sign

[esteef 2,679]

Ah yes, the "I don't like fighting so I'll use my broad brush to paint all fighters as useless non-skating apes who are complete detriments to their teams" argument. Carry on...

esteef

[Shaman 713]

Ah yes, the "I don't like fighting so I'll use my broad brush to paint all fighters as useless non-skating apes who are complete detriments to their teams" argument. Carry on...

esteef

I never said I didn't like fighting, I just don't like having a player whose main skill set is fighting. I am a fan of a player who brings a real NHL skill set to a team but also stands up for themselves and others. I am saying that the one thats name is being thrown around is not a player I would like on the wings given the number of bottom six players the wings already have on their big team/in their system. Nice strawman though.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Shaman464

[esteef 2,679]

I never said I didn't like fighting, I just don't like having a player whose main skill set is fighting. I am a fan of a player who brings a real NHL skill set to a team but also stands up for themselves and others. I am saying that the one thats name is being thrown around is not a player I would like on the wings given the number of bottom six players the wings already have on their big team/in their system. Nice strawman though.

Outside of a true power forward which are very hard to come by, Konopka is exactly waht you just described.

esteef

[Shaman 713]

Outside of a true power forward which are very hard to come by, Konopka is exactly waht you just described.

esteef

No, hes not, on the wings he wouldn't be on the same level as most of the Wings' forwards defensively, he would be dead last offensively, hes a good faceoff man, but when compared to the ability of the Wings centers to play defense its not going to win him a spot in the middle. So what does he bring that the wings don't have? Fighting? thats about it. So again he doesn't bring a skill set the wings need outside of fighting.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Shaman464

[Datsyerberger 279]

Gritty forwards certainly doesn't address any holes for us, anyhow. It's no longer a place we have an obvious lack.. if anything, we're actually reasonably well off.

On the other hand, definitely need a d-man with some cojones, but a penalty magnet isn't the answer. While mobility isn't a huge concern (as long as its not a huge liability), nor is offense (we need to add on there as well, but with a different d-man) any gritty d-man we target needs to have a good first pass, shot blocking, solid PK ability and grit. That combo doesn't come cheap.

[mjlegend 155]

You can have 'grit' without necessarily fighting, can't you? Darren Helm, Dustin Brown, these kind of guys do a lot of hitting and muckwork without fisticuffs. Dan Girardi and Greg Zanon blocked almost 450 shots last year combined and only fought a combined one time. That's grit.

Or did you just want to title this thread "Fighters I would like the Wings to sign."

I think the team can do better than Miller as the 13th forward. I think Salei is done at #6 D and the defence other than that will fall into place after Lidstrom makes his decision. I'd like a bit more to replace Lidstrom than OB and Montador if Lidstrom is truly done.

[newfy 695]

There is no evidence of any of this, hes played nearly 200 games, if he had any scoring touch it would have manifested by now. What intangibles does he bring? He only has one skill that no wing is willing to use and thats the want to fight, and thats not a needed skill set in the 2011 NHL. Beyond that with Emmerton coming up and the wings already being deep at bottom 6 forward I just don't see where he fits, he doesn't realistically play 10 minutes a game because he sits almost half that in the box, and with Miller being a 13th forward I don't see who besides Miller you would take out to put this guy in so he can play 82 games.

Plenty of intangibles,he PKs, can replace exactly what Draper did. Specialize in faceoffs, bring leadership and PK while being a very physical player. I would take out Miller who provides nothing really for a guy who will run other teams defenseman, beat their team up while PKing and winning most of his faceoffs

Hes not better than the following: Draper, Helm, Abdelkader, Eaves, Emmerton, Muršak, Hudler, (and if Zetterberg and Dats are separated) Filpulla or Cleary (if Holland addresses the need for a second line winger the wings need badly) and is in my mind a wash with Miller. All these players I mentioned are or could be the Wings bottom 6 next season, 8-9 players that are competing for 6 spots, and I do believe 4 of them play center. So again it doesn't just come down to is he better than Miller, its is he better than 4 of these players, and he is not. Honestly, ask yourself, if he didn't fight would you ever consider him for the wings? if the answer is no, than obviously this is about fighting, if its yes, well, good luck with NHL 11.

Well obviously the fact that he fights is why people want him. He is a physical guy who will fight as well and isnt a complete plug out there. You could say that about anyone, if Homer didnt screen goalies all those years would you want him on the team? No, buty since he does he was a nice fit here.

No, hes not, on the wings he wouldn't be on the same level as most of the Wings' forwards defensively, he would be dead last offensively, hes a good faceoff man, but when compared to the ability of the Wings centers to play defense its not going to win him a spot in the middle. So what does he bring that the wings don't have? Fighting? thats about it. So again he doesn't bring a skill set the wings need outside of fighting.

He would be just as good as Miller defensively. Better than Bert, Homer, Hudler. He brings a skill set that includes fighting and does everything that Drew Miller does on top of that. He has pretty much Drapers skill set now and he wasnt out of place. He was a faceoff specialist who can take a PK shift and give you 10 minutes a game of decent hockey while being one of the better enforcers out there.

You really have Detroits bottom players on some kind of pedestal, they arent nothing as special as youre making them out to be if you think Konopka is a complete non fit with the team. How come Downey could play 60 something games in 08 and Mac could play as many as he did?

[Guest Shoreline]

If people don't like enforcers, they should stay out of this thread. This is a thread where people who like tough style hockey can discuss realistic options the Wings have.

Konopka would be an ideal 13th forward for the team, especially with his faceoff skills. Would come in very handy on the 4th line especially if Draper doesn't come back. However I don't think there will be much change on the 4th line with Mursak ready for next season. Only one depth signing at most maybe. Lets hope its along those lines.

Any extra grit for next season will probably come from the defensive zone. James Wisniewski would be ideal, or Shane O'Brien. We need someone to clear the front of the net and punish opposition forwards.

Bad, incorrect, horrible, crappy.. that would describe the post I just quoted. The topic title does not say "enforcers" it says "gritty". While I did point out how many times the OP used the word "fighter", it's perfectly valid to debate the necessity of having the many definitions of "gritty" players compared to the current roster. Believe it or not, there are plenty of fans who are not a fighter slappy and want to see both an entertaining and winning set of players fielded for this team. It's been well established that there are some people on this forum who value fighting more than productivity and cannot balance toughness with risk. These values are obviously NOT in line with management of this team. Therefore, expect some criticism of something that will reasonably be judged "head in the clouds".

There's a reason you keep arguing for the Wings to sign certain players, and surprise!.. they don't.

I want "gritty" players too. I want a good mucker who can hit, who can fight, and above all, can create plays that lead to goals and do what the grind line of yore did which is work against an opponent's top line and wear them down with puck possession, hitting, and even scoring, allowing the top scoring lines to play against opponents' weaker ones which has long played into the hands of Detroit Red Wing strategy.

This is a strategy that has long worked and caters to the Red Wings' depth play which is what they've been given so much acclamation for over the last 15+ years.

This team has a laundry list of skill players developing. Goons are cheap. If the Red Wings wanted one, they could have got one. They didn't therefore they don't. Simple as that.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Shoreline

[WorkingOvertime 536]

No, hes not, on the wings he wouldn't be on the same level as most of the Wings' forwards defensively, he would be dead last offensively, hes a good faceoff man, but when compared to the ability of the Wings centers to play defense its not going to win him a spot in the middle. So what does he bring that the wings don't have? Fighting? thats about it. So again he doesn't bring a skill set the wings need outside of fighting.

I've watched at least 20 Isles games this season and provided you with numbers that prove Konopka is not the goon on skates you portray him to be. Yet, your argument has continued to decrease in facts.

The Wings could always use more PKers that are great at faceoffs. And Konopka has an offensive upside that you continue to ignore.

Your argument has essentially boiled down to the Wings won't sign him. Aside from anyone on the current roster, it's easy to bet against anyone not being signed by the Wings. However, that doesn't discount the fact that he would be a decent signing for the Wings. If we only went on what was likely, the off-season would be pretty boring around here.

It hasn't been said here, but Konopka is one of the few players who can play a shift and fight the amount of times necessary on a Wings team void of other fighters.

FWIW a lot of the players mentioned in the OP aren't enforcers.

[RedFX 48]

Shane O'Brien is a 100% no in my book. Got to watch him this year, and while he has some size and some defensive presence in front of the net, he's made alot....and I mean ALOOOOOOOOTTTTTT of dumb plays this year. He's a sloppy puckhandler, he leaves guys wide open from being out of position, and he's gained a reputation for taking inopportune penalties. There's also been alot of questions regarding chemistry/work ethic issues. Keep in mind he's played for 4 teams already...and has yet to spend 2 full seasons with any of them...has been traded 3 times, and his current team "unlikely" (according to the Tennessean) to resign him. To me, a few fights aren't worth several defensive headaches

[uk_redwing 495]

Bad, incorrect, horrible, crappy.. that would describe the post I just quoted. The topic title does not say "enforcers" it says "gritty".

1) I was replying to someone who mentioned the word "enforcer" so read before posting, please. Would save everyone time.

2) Aw babes. I know you don't like me but chin up...the minus rating is back so you can go through alllll my post history and minus every single one. Again. It'll be like old times.

[Guest Shoreline]

1) I was replying to someone who mentioned the word "enforcer" so read before posting, please. Would save everyone time.

You also were telling someone, out of place mind you, to stay out of a topic.

2) Aw babes. I know you don't like me but chin up...the minus rating is back so you can go through alllll my post history and minus every single one. Again. It'll be like old times.

Old times like how? The only topics I know you post on relate to enforcers. Beyond that, I don't give a s***. Looks like you confused me with someone else.

Let me know when you wanna talk hockey.

Until then, try not to be so full of yourself.

Edited May 19, 2011 by Shoreline

[uk_redwing 495]

Let me know when you wanna talk hockey.

Never seen you post in any of the draft or prospect threads. Let alone the AHL section. You know anything about our prospects? How they're getting along?

Feel free to watch a Grand Rapids game at any time. You might learn something.

[Guest Shoreline]

Never seen you post in any of the draft or prospect threads. Let alone the AHL section. You know anything about our prospects? How they're getting along?

Feel free to watch a Grand Rapids game at any time. You might learn something.

Actually, the response was because you failed to address any other part of my post.. which pertained to hockey, to make your anal retentive ad hominem post. By all means, try again. Add a little grit to it though.

Edited May 19, 2011 by Shoreline

[uk_redwing 495]

Actually, the response was because you failed to address any other part of my post.. which pertained to hockey, to make your anal retentive ad hominem post. By all means, try again. Add a little grit to it though.

[Konnan511 1,736]

You know what, you've got a good point there. A Brad May/Aaron Downey type, for the rougher games with Anaheim, etc, as well as to fill a spot in the event of an injury.

Dan Carcillo, anybody?

Do. Not. Want.

He takes worse penalties than Salei and Eager combined.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

The Wings could always use more PKers that are great at faceoffs. And Konopka has an offensive upside that you continue to ignore.

They have five who aren't too shabby at the dot on the PK.

Helm with over 50%

Datsyuk with over 50%

Abdelkader with over 50%

Draper with well over 50%

Zetterberg at 50%

The Wings aren't exactly starving for players who can win faceoffs in those type of situations.

Also what is the upside for Konopka? Can you ballpark his ceiling when it comes to points?

[newfy 695]

They have five who aren't too shabby at the dot on the PK.

Helm with over 50%

Datsyuk with over 50%

Abdelkader with over 50%

Draper with well over 50%

Zetterberg at 50%

The Wings aren't exactly starving for players who can win faceoffs in those type of situations.

Also what is the upside for Konopka? Can you ballpark his ceiling when it comes to points?

Playing on a line with guys like Helm, Eaves etc, I could see Konopka hitting around 20 points. I have watched him quite a bit because the Isles have a lot of ex sting players who I used to have season tickets too. For those who say he is a one dimensional goon, he isnt. Getting a heavyweight fighter who can PK like he can, specialize in faceoffs and skate more than 10 minutes a game is exactly what the wings need. The only people (Im not saying you Doc, just in general) who should be opposed to a Konopka signing are the ones who do not want fighting in the game at all

[WorkingOvertime 536]

They have five who aren't too shabby at the dot on the PK.

Helm with over 50%

Datsyuk with over 50%

Abdelkader with over 50%

Draper with well over 50%

Zetterberg at 50%

The Wings aren't exactly starving for players who can win faceoffs in those type of situations.

Also what is the upside for Konopka? Can you ballpark his ceiling when it comes to points?

It isn't something the Wings need, but it isn't something that will hurt the team. As we saw in the playoffs, the Wings like to have two players that can take the faceoff on the PK. More importantly is that Konopka can actually play the PK, unlike most enforcers that accumulate the amount of fights he does.

I think that 20 points per season is a very obtainable mark if Konopka could get ~82 games in with the Wings, especially with Helm and Mursak on his line. I would think that 30 points is around his ceiling though.

[Shaman 713]

Playing on a line with guys like Helm, Eaves etc, I could see Konopka hitting around 20 points. I have watched him quite a bit because the Isles have a lot of ex sting players who I used to have season tickets too. For those who say he is a one dimensional goon, he isnt. Getting a heavyweight fighter who can PK like he can, specialize in faceoffs and skate more than 10 minutes a game is exactly what the wings need. The only people (Im not saying you Doc, just in general) who should be opposed to a Konopka signing are the ones who do not want fighting in the game at all

Thats right folks a guy who in almost 200 games scored 22 points will somehow score 20 points in 82, I don't think he could score 20 on Crosby's wing.

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

Thats right folks a guy who in almost 200 games scored 22 points will somehow score 20 points in 82, I don't think he could score 20 on Crosby's wing.

Put Abdelkader, Eaves, Helm, or Miller on a line with Trevor Gillies and Michael Haley and see how many points they rack up.

[Shaman 713]

Put Abdelkader, Eaves, Helm, or Miller on a line with Trevor Gillies and Michael Haley and see how many points they rack up.

If he had 20 point potential with his other skills (PK, Faceoffs and fighting) he wouldnt be playing for the Islanders for league min. Sorry.

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

If he had 20 point potential with his other skills (PK, Faceoffs and fighting) he wouldnt be playing for the Islanders for league min. Sorry.

He's making more than league minimum. Sorry.

[Shaman 713]

He's making more than league minimum. Sorry.

Sorry 75,000 over minimum.

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

Sorry 75,000 over minimum.

Still over minimum. You make it sound like the Islanders were his last resort. He had a few other offers last summer. He chose where he thought he'd get the most playing time. So let me ask again, if you put one of our bottom 6 guys (Helm, Draper, Eaves, Miller, etc.) on a line with Trevor Gillies and Michael Haley, would they score 20 points?