Brett Lebda traded to Nashville

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Williams was a cheap scorer who had been far more successful both in Detroit his first go and after leaving than he was the year he came back. It was a good move up front which simply didn't pan out. I am willing to bet that he has a resurgent season this year; he turns 31 this week and so he still has plenty of mileage.

Williams is also a much better player than Lebda; Lebda is a weak third-pair defenseman while Williams was a top-six forward. It's not at all the same situation.

I can see Chicago making a move for him to replace Campbell, though on the hype he apparently carries.

Lebda stuck around in Detroit for several seasons. Longer than he should have. I can see Holland bringing him back if he needs some cheap depth and a guy that has played in the system before.

It's not a much different situation really.

Oh and Williams is a top-six forward like I am Frank Sinatra.

[Red Wings Addict 787]

I can see Holland bringing him back if he needs some cheap depth and a guy that has played in the system before.

Yup. Sounds like a reasonable idea but it's Bart f***in Lebderp.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Yup. Sounds like a reasonable idea but it's Bart f***in Lebderp.

I agree, but that same person played in the organization for 5 years.

If they hated him, they would have never let him stay that long.

[Hey man nice shot! 144]

I would take him back in heartbeat as a griffon.

[eva unit zero 271]

Lebda stuck around in Detroit for several seasons. Longer than he should have. I can see Holland bringing him back if he needs some cheap depth and a guy that has played in the system before.

It's not a much different situation really.

Oh and Williams is a top-six forward like I am Frank Sinatra.

At the time he was brought back, Williams was a top-six forward. His post-lockout average before coming back to Detroit was 20 goals and 31 assists per 82 games. That's a top six forward. He might not be able to play at that level now, but he was there then.

I would take him back in heartbeat as a griffon.

Lebda/Kolosov as a second pair in Grand Rapids? Sure.

[Konnan511 1,736]

What the? What a terrible trade. That's a lot of value to give up for a 3rd pairing DMan.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

At the time he was brought back, Williams was a top-six forward. His post-lockout average before coming back to Detroit was 20 goals and 31 assists per 82 games. That's a top six forward. He might not be able to play at that level now, but he was there then.

Only by Eva math could Williams have averaged numbers that he only actually reached once in his career, when he had 21 goals and 37 assists in '06 (the statistically unusual post lockout year).

It doesn't matter what he would've gotten over 82 fictional games. What matters is how much a player actually scores. How many minutes he actually plays.

[eva unit zero 271]

Only by Eva math could Williams have averaged numbers that he only actually reached once in his career, when he had 21 goals and 37 assists in '06 (the statistically unusual post lockout year).

It doesn't matter what he would've gotten over 82 fictional games. What matters is how much a player actually scores. How many minutes he actually plays.

Williams' 58 point season was his highest point total season in that span, but he scored 36 in 43 for Chicago in 2007-08 - pace for close to 70 points on a full healthy season, and 47 in 80 games between Atlanta and Columbus (29 in 39 in Columbus) in 2008-09.

So Williams' offensive output was pretty consistent as a 50+ point player, aside from his 2006-07 season when he scored a measly 32 points.

As for the "Eva math" comment; that 20-31-51 is his total output from 2005-06 through 2008-09, averaged down to 82 games. It's not the "let's project 11 games to 82" that I am often criticized for.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Williams' 58 point season was his highest point total season in that span, but he scored 36 in 43 for Chicago in 2007-08 - pace for close to 70 points on a full healthy season, and 47 in 80 games between Atlanta and Columbus (29 in 39 in Columbus) in 2008-09.

So Williams' offensive output was pretty consistent as a 50+ point player, aside from his 2006-07 season when he scored a measly 32 points.

As for the "Eva math" comment; that 20-31-51 is his total output from 2005-06 through 2008-09, averaged down to 82 games. It's not the "let's project 11 games to 82" that I am often criticized for.

Jason Williams scored over 50 points once in his 10 year NHL career. I can't believe I even have to say this, but that does not make him a consistent 50+ point player, no matter what kind of fuzzy math you use. In the real world, playing real hockey, he cracked 50 points in a season one time.

And averaging his career output since 2006 down to 82 games makes as little sense as projecting 11 games to 82. It in no way is any indication of the kind of goalscorer he was.

[Red Wings Addict 787]

Jason Williams scored over 50 points once in his 10 year NHL career. I can't believe I even have to say this, but that does not make him a consistent 50+ point player, no matter what kind of fuzzy math you use. In the real world, playing real hockey, he cracked 50 points in a season one time.

And averaging his career output since 2006 down to 82 games makes as little sense as projecting 11 games to 82. It in no way is any indication of the kind of goalscorer he was.

Yeah but dude, he was an awesome player at the AHL level and everyone pretty much knows that the AHL and the NHL are the same. Williams is one of the best third line centers in the game.

[Sprsquirt7 45]

Heard lends was already being bought out by Nashville

Stupid phone lends is lebda

Edited August 9, 2011 by Sprsquirt7

[eva unit zero 271]

Jason Williams scored over 50 points once in his 10 year NHL career. I can't believe I even have to say this, but that does not make him a consistent 50+ point player, no matter what kind of fuzzy math you use. In the real world, playing real hockey, he cracked 50 points in a season one time.

And averaging his career output since 2006 down to 82 games makes as little sense as projecting 11 games to 82. It in no way is any indication of the kind of goalscorer he was.

It's the same as saying a guy who scores 45 points in 42 games every year for four years is a point per game player. I didn't say he was a GUARANTEED 50+ point-per-game player if he played a full season. I said that he averaged 51 points every 82 games he played. He played around 280 games. Wayne Gretzky scored well over a point-per-game (full 84 game season of 121) in 1992-93. Steve Yzerman's PPG would have placed him third overall with 119 points on a full season in 1993-94. Would they have reached those numbers? Maybe. But Williams actually DID average the numbers I stated. It's not a projection, it's a fact.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

It's the same as saying a guy who scores 45 points in 42 games every year for four years is a point per game player. I didn't say he was a GUARANTEED 50+ point-per-game player if he played a full season. I said that he averaged 51 points every 82 games he played. He played around 280 games. Wayne Gretzky scored well over a point-per-game (full 84 game season of 121) in 1992-93. Steve Yzerman's PPG would have placed him third overall with 119 points on a full season in 1993-94. Would they have reached those numbers? Maybe. But Williams actually DID average the numbers I stated. It's not a projection, it's a fact.

It is a meaningless "fact" based on a meaningless sample size. Picking a number of games that happens to equal the length of the NHL season is not the same as scoring those points in one season. It's not like when signing players GM's are thinking "oh he's a 50 point scorer! No problem that 30 of those points will be next season."

Please answer me this simple question. In his ten year NHL career, how many times has Jason Williams actually scored more than 50 points over the course of a single 82 game season? No projections, no averaging, no extrapolating, no math. Actual statistical records only please.

[eva unit zero 271]

It is a meaningless "fact" based on a meaningless sample size. Picking a number of games that happens to equal the length of the NHL season is not the same as scoring those points in one season. It's not like when signing players GM's are thinking "oh he's a 50 point scorer! No problem that 30 of those points will be next season."

Please answer me this simple question. In his ten year NHL career, how many times has Jason Williams actually scored more than 50 points over the course of a single 82 game season? No projections, no averaging, no extrapolating, no math. Actual statistical records only please.

"per 82 games."

Just as in Wayne Gretzky's career, up until the LA trade in 1988, he had scored 583 goals and 1086 assists in 696 games, an average of 67-125-192 per 80 games. Is it realistic to expect those those totals in LA? The closest he came was 13 goals away in 88-89, 3 assists away in 90-91, and 24 points away in 88-89.

I said Williams averaged those totals, and that he could be an unexpectedly effective scorer for Pittsburgh if he is given time in that role. I didn't say "Williams will score 50 points if he plays 80 games" or anything like that. As you said, he's only done it once. But the REASON he's only done it once is health, not performance. If he's healthy, and scores like he did from 2005-06 through 2008-09, he certainly is capable of that kind of output.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

"per 82 games."

Just as in Wayne Gretzky's career, up until the LA trade in 1988, he had scored 583 goals and 1086 assists in 696 games, an average of 67-125-192 per 80 games. Is it realistic to expect those those totals in LA? The closest he came was 13 goals away in 88-89, 3 assists away in 90-91, and 24 points away in 88-89.

I said Williams averaged those totals, and that he could be an unexpectedly effective scorer for Pittsburgh if he is given time in that role. I didn't say "Williams will score 50 points if he plays 80 games" or anything like that. As you said, he's only done it once. But the REASON he's only done it once is health, not performance. If he's healthy, and scores like he did from 2005-06 through 2008-09, he certainly is capable of that kind of output.

I'm not even going to get into the Wayne Gretzky comparisons when we're talking about Jason friggin Williams.

But you agree he's only done it once in his career. It doesn't matter why. Fact is he's only done it once. He is not and never has been a consistent 50+ point player at the NHL level.

[e_prime 1,936]

Buyout official: Preds owe Lebda $478,500 over the next two years.

[St. Michael (the Red Wing) 422]

Does this mean Lebda is heading for the KHL?

[Travis 576]

Does this mean Lebda is heading for the KHL?

He'll be optioned to AAA Toledo.

[mjlegend 155]

He should sign with Ass-hat Pori.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

He should sign with Ass-hat Pori.

Or Joke-erit.

[eva unit zero 271]

I'm not even going to get into the Wayne Gretzky comparisons when we're talking about Jason friggin Williams.

But you agree he's only done it once in his career. It doesn't matter why. Fact is he's only done it once. He is not and never has been a consistent 50+ point player at the NHL level.

Due to health. Is Johan Franzen a 30-goal scorer? He's only done it once.

I'd argue the opinion about Franzen on here is more outlandish than mine about Hudler; Franzen is called an elite goal scorer and a star winger, yet he (like Williams) has never scored 60 points. In fact, as you are so stuck on the "projection" factor, here's something for you.

Jason Williams has posted a .61 (50 in 82) or better PPG in three seasons with 40+ games played, and .49 (30 in 82) twice more. Franzen has achieved the same. Williams averaged 65 games in his 5 seasons, Franzen averaged 66 games in his 5 seasons. So we're not talking about a significant difference in performance, offensively, in their five best seasons. Nor are we talking about a significant difference in games played. Was Franzen ever elite? Was Williams? Or maybe both were, or still are, solid first/second line forwards. Franzen, like Williams, has been terrible defensively outside of his first season, when he played a defensive role and focused on defense. The when he became a scorer, he pretty much gave it up. He's IMHO gotten progressively worse in that area, actually. So if a prime Williams spent a whole, healthy season next to Datsyuk, how much might he bring? The argument against Hudlr is that he's slow. Williams has a similar shot to Hudler, has speed, but doesn't have the playmaking skills. Hudler has certainly done well on Datsyuk's wing when given the chance. As has Filppula. Why wouldn't Williams have done well? Perhaps even better than Franzen has been in the same role? It's speculation and can't happen now, but the stats suggest that Williams, who is younger, was equal to, if not superior than, Franzen offensively.

EDIT: Also, with regards to Gretzky; he had scored 180+ points six of the seven previous seasons. Four saw him break 200, and another he hit 196. So even with Gretzky being the most prolific scorer ever, he was never able to come anywhere NEAR what he did in those few years, from the very moment he left Edmonton. His seven highest point totals of his career were in Edmonton. Williams, on the other hand, remained fairly consistent despite bouncing around; playing a bit below his average in Atlanta and a bit above in Columbus. So if anything, that shows that Williams could have been more relied upon to put up no more or less than his "normal" levels. Why do I say this? Gretzky's worst two seasons in Edmonton were his rookie year (tied for league lead with 137) and 87-88 (second with 149) and you ask me "So what", so I'll tell you. He was traded at the age of 27. He only cleared the 137 mark three times after leaving Edmonton; his first three years there. He only cleared the 149 mark twice. His third-worst season in Edmonton? 164, which he only cleared in LA his first year there; and made history alongside Bernie Nicholls as the only teammates to both score 150 points or more.

I find it hard to believe that Gretzky's prime ended in 1988, at the age of 27. Steve Yzerman and Mario Lemieux each had some of their best seasons at or after that age.

Edited August 10, 2011 by eva unit zero

[e_prime 1,936]

Can't we keep the Jason "Friggin'" Williams talk in the Jason "Friggin'" Williams thread?

[Bramsy 16]

Bart who got traded?

this buyout mean he can play wherever he wants?

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Can't we keep the Jason "Friggin'" Williams talk in the Jason "Friggin'" Williams thread?

good point.

If I want to beat my head against a wall about Williams, I should be doing it in that thread. Sorry for the derailment.