Top 3 Players in Each Team's History

[eva unit zero 271]

Howe was never a serious contender for the Hart trophy throughout the 80's. There was no way he was ever going to win one.

In any case, I didn't say he wasn't good. I just don't think he's a better all time Flyer than Clarke and don't believe he was as instrumental to that franchise and its history.

Using the "instrumental" view you just stated, Kevin Dineen should rank in the top three for the WhalerCanes, Peter Stastny should be in the top three for Quebec/Colorado, and David Legwand belongs on the Nashville list.

Being more associated with that team's history (Clarke and the Cup wins, in particular; Howe's teams were far weaker) does not make you a better player. An excellent example is John Vanbiesbrouck vs. Mike Richter. Beezer was the better goalie, but Richter is more associated with Rangers history because he had a great playoff run in 1994, he won the Cup that year, and he played his entire career as a Ranger.

[achildr1 255]

They were pretty long in the tooth by then so I doubt the Wings would have been making too many long term plans around them. Though Lidstrom credits both of them, especially McCrimmon, with having a big impact on his game. I was really surprised McCrimmon never really worked out as the defensive coach, given his influence on Lidstrom and the fact he was so great defensively himself.

I always wonder if the Wings had drafted Jagr instead of Primeau. We'd probably never see Shanahan, but who cares in that scenario.

Or if Vancouver wouldn't have taken Pavel Bure 3 picks before the Wings had planned to take him.....

[achildr1 255]

Howe was always very good defensively, even after his offense tapered off into the 90s. And Clarke wasn't even the best defensive forward of his era; it's pretty much agreed upon that Bob Gainey deserves that spot - he won the Selke a few in a row when it was created, and people say that it was created FOR him because of how good he was defensively. That's a pretty strong argument in the Gainey vs. Clarke debate.

Clarke was an elite center, Howe was an elite defenseman. It's really a matter of who you think was better. I think it's Howe. You think it's Clarke. We're probably not going to change each other's minds.

Uh oh, I'm agreeing with Eva...

Seriously though, that's not my hockey era of expertise but through all I have read throughout the years, Gainey would almost certainly take the cake defensively over Clarke.

I still don't think Hudler will win the Hart this year though....

[eva unit zero 271]

Or if Vancouver wouldn't have taken Pavel Bure 3 picks before the Wings had planned to take him.....

Incorrect. The Wings attempted to draft Bure the previous round and were told by the league he was ineligible. Vancouver then provided information showing otherwise.

[egroen 384]

Incorrect. The Wings attempted to draft Bure the previous round and were told by the league he was ineligible. Vancouver then provided information showing otherwise.

Sounds like Edler - Vancouver sniped him from the Wings a few picks before when Detroit thought they were the only one to have seen him. They used their pick on Franzen instead (had originally planned to draft him later).

Edited September 25, 2011 by egroen

[eva unit zero 271]

Sounds like Edler - Vancouver sniped him from the Wings a few picks before when Detroit thought they were the only one to have seen him. They used their pick on Franzen instead (had originally planned to draft him later).

I would trade Franzen for Edler. Now and then.

[egroen 384]

Uh oh, I'm agreeing with Eva...

Seriously though, that's not my hockey era of expertise but through all I have read throughout the years, Gainey would almost certainly take the cake defensively over Clarke.

I still don't think Hudler will win the Hart this year though....

Gainey and Ramsay were the best defensive forwards of the time, but Clarke was 'the' two-way forward of the time. Clarke most likely would have had a couple Selkes before the award came about - he had 2 seasons with 19 and 22 goals against at even strength, while playing 1st line minutes and Clarke was a huge PKer. Sort of a Draper vs. Zetterberg thing.

[toby91_ca 620]

I'm very confident in saything that if you had 100,000 people and you asked them to pick either Clarke or Howe as Philly's best all-time player, 99,999 would pick Clarke and the other person would be Eva.

Actually, it's funny, if you want to go through all the various lists that are floating out there on top Flyers of all time, Clarke is 1st on all of them and most of them don't really provide any argument as to why, they basically say "it's Clarke, everyone knows that, then they go on to provide detailed discussions on the rest. Howe normally pops up around #5.

[eva unit zero 271]

I'm very confident in saything that if you had 100,000 people and you asked them to pick either Clarke or Howe as Philly's best all-time player, 99,999 would pick Clarke and the other person would be Eva.

Actually, it's funny, if you want to go through all the various lists that are floating out there on top Flyers of all time, Clarke is 1st on all of them and most of them don't really provide any argument as to why, they basically say "it's Clarke, everyone knows that, then they go on to provide detailed discussions on the rest. Howe normally pops up around #5.

Your second point is a huge thing. It's like putting Lindsay ahead of Fedorov, Messier ahead of Kurri, or Jagr ahead of Crosby. It's not argued for; it's just accepted as fact. Orr as the best defenseman ever is another thing like that; why not Harvey, Bourque, or Lidstrom? Because.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Your second point is a huge thing. It's like putting Lindsay ahead of Fedorov, Messier ahead of Kurri, or Jagr ahead of Crosby. It's not argued for; it's just accepted as fact. Orr as the best defenseman ever is another thing like that; why not Harvey, Bourque, or Lidstrom? Because.

I think that Messier had a better career as an Oiler than Kurri, Jagr was a better Penguin than Crosby and Lindsay was a better Red Wing than Fedorov. And Orr is the best defenseman ever.

Sure you could make arguments against all those, but the arguments for are much stronger.

[toby91_ca 620]

Your second point is a huge thing. It's like putting Lindsay ahead of Fedorov, Messier ahead of Kurri, or Jagr ahead of Crosby. It's not argued for; it's just accepted as fact. Orr as the best defenseman ever is another thing like that; why not Harvey, Bourque, or Lidstrom? Because.

Okay, actual agruments then (I know Clarke was a forward and Howe was a defenseman, so it's tough to compare point production, but I will anyway since that was one of the reasons Howe was so good and he played in a higher scoring era). All stats below relate to time played with the Flyers.

Clarke:

GP - 1,144, PTS - 1,210 (reg season), GP - 133, PTS - 116 (playoffs)

Masterton

Hart - x3

Selke

Lester Pearson

Lester Partick

Lionel Conacher (Canada's male athlete of the year)

Lou Marsh (Canada's athlete of the year, male or female)

NHL allstar - x8

NHL 1st or 2nd team allstar - x4

Captained Flyers to Stanley Cup - x2

Flyers team MVP - x2 (the award is now know as...you know...the Bobby Clarke award)

Howe:

GP - 594, PTS - 480 (reg season), GP - 82, PTS - 53 (playoffs)

NHL allstar - x4

NHL 1st or 2nd team allstar - x3

Flyers team MVP - once

[toby91_ca 620]

Howe was a Hart contender throughout his prime in Hartford and Philly, in an era with Gretzky and Lemieux. This is despite the fact that defensemen and especially goaltenders are typically given much less consideration for the Hart than they deserve. Lidstrom, Bourque and Hasek are excellent recent examples of this. Ray Bourque deserved the Hart in 1990 and 1999, but received neither. Nicklas Lidstrom deserved it in 2004, but did not receive it. And Hasek deserved it for 1996 (didn't win), 1997 (won), and 1998 (won) and should have been a finalist every year from 1994 through 2001.

Well, Howe, the Hart contender throughout his prime only finished in the top 10 in voting 3 times in his career (3rd, 5th and 7th). Clarke actually won the award 3 times and had another 6 top 10 finishes (2nd, 3rd, 6th, 7th and 10th twice).

I know you've tried to spin the defensemen never got the attention they needed for voting, but is that really your best argument?

I'd have less of a problem if you simply tried to argue that Howe was a better player (I'd still disagree big time), but to argue that Howe was a better Flyer just doesn't seem to make any sense at all.

Just for fun (on the who's the better player, regardless of considering their time with the Flyers, I just checked the Hockey News' top 100 players of all time (I know all of these are just opinions, but as I said, just for fun): Clarke is in at #24. Howe isn't even on the list of 100.

[eva unit zero 271]

I think that Messier had a better career as an Oiler than Kurri, Jagr was a better Penguin than Crosby and Lindsay was a better Red Wing than Fedorov. And Orr is the best defenseman ever.

Sure you could make arguments against all those, but the arguments for are much stronger.

Kurri played 100 fewer games for the Oilers yet outscored Messier AND was a Selke contender. Messier was a secondary offensive force except for the early years on Gretzky's Wing, and after the Gretzky trade. Kurri also posted better playoff numbers, and is the all-time postseason goals leader for the Oil. Crosby has more points in fewer games compared to Jagr at the same point in his career, and Jagr played on Lemieux's wing. Crosby has a hart and captained the team to consecutive final appearances, winning once. Fedorov was the best player on a stacked Red Wings team, while Lindsay was anywhere from second to fifth.

As for Orr. What makes him the best defenseman ever? He was a great defenseman, the best of his day. But was he better than Doug Harvey, Red Kelly, Eddie Shore, Ray Bourque, Nick Lidstrom? Orr has 8 Norris trophies. That makes him the best. He scored a lot of points? So did Paul Coffey; maybe he's the best defenseman ever. It's not a coincidence that the two highest scoring defensemen played their best seasons with a center who scored over 150 points. Do you know how many players have scored 150 points? Five. Phil Esposito, Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Steve Yzerman, and Bernie Nicholls. Nicholls did it as Gretzky's right winger in 88-89, the same season Yzerman finished third with 155. How would Orr's numbers have looked without Espo there? I'm not saying he isn't the best ever. I'm asking WHY. Your response was "he just is" the way a ten year old holds on to hope that his favorite player, who missed all of the previous year with an injury/surgery/diaper rash, will come back and be the best in the league again. If there's not a why, it's not a rational decision.

Okay, actual agruments then (I know Clarke was a forward and Howe was a defenseman, so it's tough to compare point production, but I will anyway since that was one of the reasons Howe was so good and he played in a higher scoring era). All stats below relate to time played with the Flyers.

Clarke:

GP - 1,144, PTS - 1,210 (reg season), GP - 133, PTS - 116 (playoffs)

Masterton

Hart - x3

Selke

Lester Pearson

Lester Partick

Lionel Conacher (Canada's male athlete of the year)

Lou Marsh (Canada's athlete of the year, male or female)

NHL allstar - x8

NHL 1st or 2nd team allstar - x4

Captained Flyers to Stanley Cup - x2

Flyers team MVP - x2 (the award is now know as...you know...the Bobby Clarke award)

Howe:

GP - 594, PTS - 480 (reg season), GP - 82, PTS - 53 (playoffs)

NHL allstar - x4

NHL 1st or 2nd team allstar - x3

Flyers team MVP - once

Why don't we take out things like the awards Howe was ineligible for, or awards that are not solely for on-ice play. Finally, it's unfair to use captaincy as a measure given that Howe joined the team when Clarke was captain. So that leads to:

Clarke:

GP - 1,144, PTS - 1,210 (reg season), GP - 133, PTS - 116 (playoffs)

Hart - x3

Lester Pearson

NHL allstar - x8

NHL 1st or 2nd team allstar - x4

Flyers team MVP - x2

Howe:

GP - 594, PTS - 480 (reg season), GP - 82, PTS - 53 (playoffs)

NHL allstar - x4

NHL 1st or 2nd team allstar - x3

Flyers team MVP - once

It does look a little weighted in Clarke's favor. But this is where things get messy; Howe was a Hart finalist with the Flyers and nearly won the Norris in 1986, Paul Coffey's best year points-wise. But he was beaten for the Hart by Gretzky. In fact, if you switch their places, I think Howe would succeed much better against Clarke's opposition than Clarke would against Howe's. If Clarke plays for the Flyers starting in 1983, he wins no Hart trophies or Pearson awards. Howe would still earn achievements, whether it be at forward or on defense. So, as I said before. I'm probably not going to change anyone's mind, and you're probably not going to change mine.

Edited September 26, 2011 by eva unit zero

[eva unit zero 271]

Well, Howe, the Hart contender throughout his prime only finished in the top 10 in voting 3 times in his career (3rd, 5th and 7th). Clarke actually won the award 3 times and had another 6 top 10 finishes (2nd, 3rd, 6th, 7th and 10th twice).

I know you've tried to spin the defensemen never got the attention they needed for voting, but is that really your best argument?

I'd have less of a problem if you simply tried to argue that Howe was a better player (I'd still disagree big time), but to argue that Howe was a better Flyer just doesn't seem to make any sense at all.

Just for fun (on the who's the better player, regardless of considering their time with the Flyers, I just checked the Hockey News' top 100 players of all time (I know all of these are just opinions, but as I said, just for fun): Clarke is in at #24. Howe isn't even on the list of 100.

That list, published in 1998, also includes Jaromir Jagr at 37 and Eric Lindros at 54. Yzerman is at 78, and Hasek is at 95. Now I find that odd; Yzerman was the only one of those players considered a lock for the Hall at that point. Hasek had just won two Harts and was the best goalie in the world, so his future was looking good. Jagr had just won his second Art Ross and would win the Hart the next season. Lindros had won the Hart in 1995 and played well, but he had also missed considerable time due to concussions and other injuries. It's kind of hard to take an argument seriously when that list is posted as a source; it's akin to posting Eklund as a source. Are you next going to tell me about the Top 100 list THN released in 2010, which was really five top-20 lists, and has Bobby Clarke ranked 9th? He was ranked 8th among centers on the earlier list (same order for the top 7 - Gretzky, Lemieux, Beliveau, Messier, Morenz, Mikita, Esposito) and Yzerman has now passed him up. Sidney Crosby managed to pass up Joe Malone somewhere along the way also, and is now in 18th between Forsberg and Malone.

Also, Sawchuk-Roy-Brodeur for goalies. Plus, Scott Niedermayer is ranked 16th; above Scott Stevens, Brian Leetch, Chris Pronger, and Pierre Pilote. You also might want to know that American-born goaltender Frank Brimsek is ranked twelfth among goalies.

Missing from the list: Russian players, Cyclone Taylor. The Russian players are answered by the assumedly NHL bias of the list. But Newsy Lalonde is on the list, and he played the majority of his career out west in the same league Taylor was dominating.

Currently active players included in the list are: Crosby, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Zetterberg, Iginla, Pronger, Brodeur

So I'm not terribly impressed with THN's ability to assemble a list for reference. Entertainment, sure. Reference, no.

[egroen 384]

Please, Clarke is easily ahead of Howe and it isn't even arguable.... And I am a believer Howe was criminally underrated.

Anyways, I also vote Kurri over Messier as an Oiler

[eva unit zero 271]

Please, Clarke is easily ahead of Howe and it isn't even arguable.... And I am a believer Howe was criminally underrated.

Anyways, I also vote Kurri over Messier as an Oiler

So, it's like an Orr situation? Nobody for the rest of time will ever be a better Flyer than Bobby Clarke?

I don't understand why certain things "aren't arguable" for some reason. Is it that people don't want to consider the possibility? Around here, Lidstrom is considered the second-greatest defenseman to ever play. Pretty much universally. THN ranked him fifth. HFBoards, aside from a few dissenters, agreed with that - that he belonged behind Orr, Bourque, Harvey, and Shore. But suggesting Lidstrom isn't top-two All-Time is another "not arguable" thing around here.

What exactly IS arguable? The number Mike Commodore should wear? Because if that's it, maybe LGW should shut down.

[toby91_ca 620]

So, it's like an Orr situation? Nobody for the rest of time will ever be a better Flyer than Bobby Clarke?

I don't understand why certain things "aren't arguable" for some reason. Is it that people don't want to consider the possibility? Around here, Lidstrom is considered the second-greatest defenseman to ever play. Pretty much universally. THN ranked him fifth. HFBoards, aside from a few dissenters, agreed with that - that he belonged behind Orr, Bourque, Harvey, and Shore. But suggesting Lidstrom isn't top-two All-Time is another "not arguable" thing around here.

What exactly IS arguable? The number Mike Commodore should wear? Because if that's it, maybe LGW should shut down.

It isn't arguable because there is no logical argument as to why Howe was a better Flyer than Clarke. Perhaps it isn't the best term because EVERYTHING is "arguable" for the most part, which is why I added the term "logical."

When 999,999 people pick Clarke and 1 person picks Howe, I guess you can say it's arguable, but is it logical? I'm in very dangerous territory here though as I don't want to suggest Clarke is the better player because that's simply what everyone else thinks. My opinion is simply based on all the detailed facts that you can gather as well.

Even when you stripped away facts (which didn't make much sense), it still didn't look logical at all to pick Howe over Clarke.

[toby91_ca 620]

Kurri played 100 fewer games for the Oilers yet outscored Messier AND was a Selke contender. Messier was a secondary offensive force except for the early years on Gretzky's Wing, and after the Gretzky trade. Kurri also posted better playoff numbers, and is the all-time postseason goals leader for the Oil. Crosby has more points in fewer games compared to Jagr at the same point in his career, and Jagr played on Lemieux's wing. Crosby has a hart and captained the team to consecutive final appearances, winning once. Fedorov was the best player on a stacked Red Wings team, while Lindsay was anywhere from second to fifth.

As for Orr. What makes him the best defenseman ever? He was a great defenseman, the best of his day. But was he better than Doug Harvey, Red Kelly, Eddie Shore, Ray Bourque, Nick Lidstrom? Orr has 8 Norris trophies. That makes him the best. He scored a lot of points? So did Paul Coffey; maybe he's the best defenseman ever. It's not a coincidence that the two highest scoring defensemen played their best seasons with a center who scored over 150 points. Do you know how many players have scored 150 points? Five. Phil Esposito, Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Steve Yzerman, and Bernie Nicholls. Nicholls did it as Gretzky's right winger in 88-89, the same season Yzerman finished third with 155. How would Orr's numbers have looked without Espo there? I'm not saying he isn't the best ever. I'm asking WHY. Your response was "he just is" the way a ten year old holds on to hope that his favorite player, who missed all of the previous year with an injury/surgery/diaper rash, will come back and be the best in the league again. If there's not a why, it's not a rational decision.

Why don't we take out things like the awards Howe was ineligible for, or awards that are not solely for on-ice play. Finally, it's unfair to use captaincy as a measure given that Howe joined the team when Clarke was captain. So that leads to:

Clarke:

GP - 1,144, PTS - 1,210 (reg season), GP - 133, PTS - 116 (playoffs)

Hart - x3

Lester Pearson

NHL allstar - x8

NHL 1st or 2nd team allstar - x4

Flyers team MVP - x2

Howe:

GP - 594, PTS - 480 (reg season), GP - 82, PTS - 53 (playoffs)

NHL allstar - x4

NHL 1st or 2nd team allstar - x3

Flyers team MVP - once

It does look a little weighted in Clarke's favor. But this is where things get messy; Howe was a Hart finalist with the Flyers and nearly won the Norris in 1986, Paul Coffey's best year points-wise. But he was beaten for the Hart by Gretzky. In fact, if you switch their places, I think Howe would succeed much better against Clarke's opposition than Clarke would against Howe's. If Clarke plays for the Flyers starting in 1983, he wins no Hart trophies or Pearson awards. Howe would still earn achievements, whether it be at forward or on defense. So, as I said before. I'm probably not going to change anyone's mind, and you're probably not going to change mine.

So, if Howe won 15 Norris trophies over his career, would you remove that fact from the argument because Clarke wasn't eligible for that?

[egroen 384]

So, it's like an Orr situation? Nobody for the rest of time will ever be a better Flyer than Bobby Clarke?

I don't understand why certain things "aren't arguable" for some reason. Is it that people don't want to consider the possibility? Around here, Lidstrom is considered the second-greatest defenseman to ever play. Pretty much universally. THN ranked him fifth. HFBoards, aside from a few dissenters, agreed with that - that he belonged behind Orr, Bourque, Harvey, and Shore. But suggesting Lidstrom isn't top-two All-Time is another "not arguable" thing around here.

What exactly IS arguable? The number Mike Commodore should wear? Because if that's it, maybe LGW should shut down.

True - I guess it just is not logical. Clarke is Philly's Yzerman, and he has all the hardware to boot. 3 Harts (up against a prime Orr and Esposito) and captained 2 Cup winners.

It's like trying to argue Bill Quackenbush over Gordie Howe as the better Red Wing. Sure, Quackenbush is underrated, but that does not mean Howe is overrated.

Though I do agree Kurri was a better Oiler than Messier.

Edited September 26, 2011 by egroen

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

True - I guess it just is not logical. Clarke is Philly's Yzerman, and he has all the hardware to boot. 3 Harts (up against a prime Orr and Esposito) and captained 2 Cup winners.

It's like trying to argue Bill Quackenbush over Gordie Howe as the better Red Wing. Sure, Quackenbush is underrated, but that does not mean Howe is overrated.

Though I do agree Kurri was a better Oiler than Messier.

Speaking of Messier, I'm surprised no one has called me out for leaving him off the Rangers top 3.

I never expected to be called out on Bobby Clarke of all people. That eva is a sly one indeed.

Edited September 26, 2011 by GMRwings1983

[eva unit zero 271]

It isn't arguable because there is no logical argument as to why Howe was a better Flyer than Clarke. Perhaps it isn't the best term because EVERYTHING is "arguable" for the most part, which is why I added the term "logical."

When 999,999 people pick Clarke and 1 person picks Howe, I guess you can say it's arguable, but is it logical? I'm in very dangerous territory here though as I don't want to suggest Clarke is the better player because that's simply what everyone else thinks. My opinion is simply based on all the detailed facts that you can gather as well.

Even when you stripped away facts (which didn't make much sense), it still didn't look logical at all to pick Howe over Clarke.

So, if Howe won 15 Norris trophies over his career, would you remove that fact from the argument because Clarke wasn't eligible for that?

I stripped away the Selke, for best defensive forward, as well as awards given to Canadians. Howe would likely have won a Selke during his career had he stayed at forward; he was certainly good enough defensively even when he played the wing. As for the Norris argument, Clarke would have been ineligible. Howe would also likely receive First-Team selections in those seasons, making it a double-tap to include it (same for Vezinas since 1983) as there is no "Best Forward" or "Best Center" award other than the postseason All-Stars.

[LeftWinger 5,152]

Please, Clarke is easily ahead of Howe and it isn't even arguable.... And I am a believer Howe was criminally underrated.

Anyways, I also vote Kurri over Messier as an Oiler

I agree with the Kurri as well. Funny thing about Messier, just because he guaranteed that the Rangers would come back in the playoffs when they fell 3-2 games to (the Devils?) and the team actually did it, now all of a sudden he is the greatest captain in the NHL to ever grace the Earth. Why? Because he said they were gonna come back and they won two games and then the Stanley Cup? What did he do in Vancouver to prove he was the greatest captain ever? uh....nothing. The 1990 Oilers team was still full of players that won 4 out of 5 years that it didn't really matter who the Captain was. I just don't get what makes he the greatest leader in the NHL ever and why he has a trophy named after him...The Messier Leadership Award? Please... I'll take Esa Tikkanen AND Jari Kurri over Messier as 2 of the 3 greatest oilers.

[eva unit zero 271]

Speaking of Messier, I'm surprised no one has called me out for leaving him off the Rangers top 3.

I never expected to be called out on Bobby Clarke of all people. That eva is a sly one indeed.

He crossed my mind for the Rangers on building my list; but realistically even as good as he was for them can you argue him over guys like Bathgate, Leetch, Giacomin, Bill Cook, Brad Park, Frank Boucher, Rod Gilbert, Jean Ratelle, or even either of John Vanbiesbrouck or Mike Richter? Messier is down near the bottom, if not at the bottom, of that group. At least in my mind. Which is what really matters.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I agree with the Kurri as well. Funny thing about Messier, just because he guaranteed that the Rangers would come back in the playoffs when they fell 3-2 games to (the Devils?) and the team actually did it, now all of a sudden he is the greatest captain in the NHL to ever grace the Earth. Why? Because he said they were gonna come back and they won two games and then the Stanley Cup? What did he do in Vancouver to prove he was the greatest captain ever? uh....nothing. The 1990 Oilers team was still full of players that won 4 out of 5 years that it didn't really matter who the Captain was. I just don't get what makes he the greatest leader in the NHL ever and why he has a trophy named after him...The Messier Leadership Award? Please... I'll take Esa Tikkanen AND Jari Kurri over Messier as 2 of the 3 greatest oilers.

Funny, how people forget that Gretzky was the captain in Edmonton for around a decade, before Messier inherited it from him.

Why does no one mention Gretzky as the greatest captain ever? He captained many Cups, he outworked people on every shift (the most underrated thing about Wayne), and he never took nights off. You don't score over 200 points and have long consecutive games points streaks without bringing it every night.

So isn't that the mark of a great captain? Leading by example, outworking everyone and not taking any games off, while leading your team to numerous Cups. Maybe there's something about him I don't know.

And yes that guaranteed win was BS and is fat boy Brodeur's fault more than anyone's. Two of the goals Messier scored were softies and the last one was an empty netter.

He crossed my mind for the Rangers on building my list; but realistically even as good as he was for them can you argue him over guys like Bathgate, Leetch, Giacomin, Bill Cook, Brad Park, Frank Boucher, Rod Gilbert, Jean Ratelle, or even either of John Vanbiesbrouck or Mike Richter? Messier is down near the bottom, if not at the bottom, of that group. At least in my mind. Which is what really matters.

Well, he did have many good seasons there and put up some huge numbers in his early years there. His popularity is nearly unmatched amongst Rangers fans. Constant All Star game appearances and a Hart trophy there as well. I would have put him 4th or 5th.

Edited September 27, 2011 by GMRwings1983

[eva unit zero 271]

Why does no one mention Gretzky as the greatest captain ever?

Because he was a whiny *****. Same reason Lemieux's not in the discussion.

Well, he did have many good seasons there and put up some huge numbers in his early years there. His popularity is nearly unmatched amongst Rangers fans. Constant All Star game appearances and a Hart trophy there as well. I would have put him 4th or 5th.

Both Boucher and Cook finished in the top ten in scoring almost every single season of their careers. Cook twice led the league in scoring, and Boucher had quite a few top-three finishes. Cook scored goals at just under 0.50 per game, in an era of very low scoring. His four best seasons were 33 goals in 44 games, 29 in 44, 30 in 44, 33 in 48. The idea of putting Messier over him is mind-boggling.

Remember, we're not using Messier's whole career; just his Rangers years. Otherwise we'd have to rank Gordie Howe as the best WhalerCane ever, Gretzky as the best Oiler, King, Blue, Ranger, and if you go by places his number is retired everywhere else too (making it a top two list for most teams) plus we'd have Peter Forsberg and Paul Kariya on Nashville's list, Adam Oates on the Blues and Capitals, and Brett Hull on the Winnipeg/Phoenix and lists. It'd be like making a "top-3 defensemen ever per team" list, a Wings list could have perhaps either Lidstrom-Harvey-Fetisov or Lidstrom-Kelly-Goodfellow?

Would be interesting.

Edited September 27, 2011 by eva unit zero