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Cali-Wing-Nut

Did Holland build a BMW instead of a Chevy?

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Lucic, and Marchand are 2 more right off the top of my head.

I'm not placing blame upon Holland/Nill for not drafting these guys, but to say that we have the "best GM" along with the "best scouts" is a little off the mark in my opinion.

The North American scouts take a lot of crap, they do alright though. Reaching for Smith seems to have paid off big time for example. Howard as well.

But man they should add another scout or 2 or something for North America. If they could pan out a few North Americans more their scouting would be ridiculous. Clifford or Lucic would have this team right where I want it. Abdelkader would be just a complimentary tough guy, and with Smith and one of those guys the wings would have no problem when games got tough and they could still play their style of game.

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The North American scouts take a lot of crap, they do alright though. Reaching for Smith seems to have paid off big time for example. Howard as well.

But man they should add another scout or 2 or something for North America. If they could pan out a few North Americans more their scouting would be ridiculous. Clifford or Lucic would have this team right where I want it. Abdelkader would be just a complimentary tough guy, and with Smith and one of those guys the wings would have no problem when games got tough and they could still play their style of game.

That's just it - emphasis appears to have been placed on scouting European youths instead of N.American...Then again if this team continues with the "puck possession" style of play - both Holland/Nill may feel the team's future would be better off with talent that's capable of that style of play.

Persoanlly I find the "puck possession" easy to counter when the playoffs arrive, and teams need to resort to a "dump & chase" style in order to generate any consistent scoring opportunites, or to create turnovers in the oppositions end...It's why I see the Bruins repeating.

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The North American scouts take a lot of crap, they do alright though. Reaching for Smith seems to have paid off big time for example. Howard as well.

But man they should add another scout or 2 or something for North America. If they could pan out a few North Americans more their scouting would be ridiculous. Clifford or Lucic would have this team right where I want it. Abdelkader would be just a complimentary tough guy, and with Smith and one of those guys the wings would have no problem when games got tough and they could still play their style of game.

Milan Lucic is a ******* beast, but I recall reading somewhere that his AHL numbers weren't as good as Emmerton's. I don't know if that's true or not, but if it's true he probably developed much better than anyone ever anticipated, and therefore it would have been hard to predict and scout for. If this is completely false, then I apologize for referencing false info.

Edited by kipwinger

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Milan Lucic is a ******* beast, but I recall reading somewhere that his AHL numbers weren't as good as Emmerton's. I don't know if that's true or not, but if it's true I probably developed much better than anyone ever expected, and therefore it would have been hard to predict and scout for. If this is completely false, then I apologize for referencing false info.

Emmerton was said to have had a higher skill level, and garnered more points throughout their respective Major Junior careers...That said - I can see why Holland/Nill preferred Emmerton; he had all the makings of a guy capable of the Red Wings style of play...With Lucic ya got a big kid with decent overall skills, and a penchant for fighting; he could have improved his skills as he got older (in this case he did), or there's always the possibility his skating/skills don't improve, and he would more or less be a 4th line guy - if not a career AHL'er...Boston being Boston - Chiarelli, and his scouts have shown a preference for taking kids with that physical edge.

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Emmerton was said to have had a higher skill level, and garnered more points throughout their respective Major Junior careers...That said - I can see why Holland/Nill preferred Emmerton; he had all the makings of a guy capable of the Red Wings style of play...With Lucic ya got a big kid with decent overall skills, and a penchant for fighting; he could have improved his skills as he got older (in this case he did), or there's always the possibility his skating/skills don't improve, and he would more or less be a 4th line guy - if not a career AHL'er...Boston being Boston - Chiarelli, and his scouts have shown a preference for taking kids with that physical edge.

Yeah, I mean I obviously didn't follow either of them as they came up. But from what I understood, drafting Lucic was by no means a no brainer or anything like that.

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Yeah, I mean I obviously didn't follow either of them as they came up. But from what I understood, drafting Lucic was by no means a no brainer or anything like that.

I honestly believe drafting for the NHL has gotta be the toughest of the 4 major pro leagues; for every Crosby there's a Daigle.

Lucic was by no means a "sure bet" back on draft day as to what we see of him today...Just that ya gotta ask yourself if you're a GM/scout - what would you prefer once you head into the 2nd round of drafting, and beyond - some kid playing in the WHL/OHL with above average ability, has fire in his belly, and doesn't shy away from the rough stuff, or a kid from the NCAA, or Europe with alot of skill, but his size/lack of physical play may some day be a factor?

With Holland/Nill we know they'll draft skill/skating every day of the week over anything else...So far they've been pretty successful doing just that - even though it may not always please "knuckle draggers" such as myself.

Edited by F.Michael

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At the end of the day, drafting and scouting is just gambling. In the end you need a lot of luck to go along with your little bit of scouting skill. I can't get too hard on Holland and the Scouts considering the job they do, on the draft at least, is mostly luck based.

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Yeah, I mean I obviously didn't follow either of them as they came up. But from what I understood, drafting Lucic was by no means a no brainer or anything like that.

No youre right it definitely wasnt, but theyve missed a few guys in those late first and early seconds that have turned out to be players. With the wings always picking there you would think they would get used to scouting and make some good picks in that spot.

Smith is really their only good pick, they still raft well in that area but not like they should after having drafted there for 15 years. Lucic was definitely not a no brainer but if the wings scouting was better they could have seen what Boston did. I mean, Lucic made the NHL at like 19 his game must've been pretty damn solid to begin with

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No youre right it definitely wasnt, but theyve missed a few guys in those late first and early seconds that have turned out to be players. With the wings always picking there you would think they would get used to scouting and make some good picks in that spot.

Smith is really their only good pick, they still raft well in that area but not like they should after having drafted there for 15 years. Lucic was definitely not a no brainer but if the wings scouting was better they could have seen what Boston did. I mean, Lucic made the NHL at like 19 his game must've been pretty damn solid to begin with

Lucic was a beast with the Vancouver Giants, I was really surprised he didn't go in the 1st round that year. Hindsight is 20/20, but it's tough to see we traded down for Emmerton and could've gotten Lucic or Clutterbuck. We've stolen enough guys to not harp on it, but damn mann, that's exactly what this team could use now :hehe:

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Hindsight of better/comparable players for each draft pick (I may have missed a few)

...yeah, I'm bored

2004

97. Johan Franzen

127. Ryan Callahan (as much as I like the guy, you can't argue Franzen's playoff numbers...we should have had both :) )

128. Evan McGrath

134. Kris Versteeg

150. Mikhail Grabovski

Nothing too bad for the rest of the draft.

2005

19. Jakub Kindl

21. Tuukka Rask

24. TJ Oshie

33. James Neal

35. Marc-Edouard Vlasic

41. Ondrej Pavelec

42. Justin Abdelkader

44. Paul Stastny (this one hurts)

51. Mason Raymond

62. Kristopher Letang (this too...)

72. Jonathan Quick

79. Cody Franson

80. Alex Rappold

85. Ben Bishop

87. Marc-Andre Gragnani

96. Chris Butler

101. Jared Boll

103. Mattias Ritola

105. Keith Yandle

108. Niklas Hjalmarsson

132. Darren Helm (perfect pick!)

137. Johan Ryno

142. Nathan Gerbe (I thought we were the ones to take chances on small players)

175. Juho Mielonen

190. Matt D'Agostini

214. Bretton Stamler

222. Kyle Cumiskey

230. Patric Hornqvist (last pick...Detroit style)

2006

41. Cory Emmerton

44. Nikolai Kulemin

46. Jhonas Enroth

47. Shawn Matthias

50. Milan Lucic (maybe we'd trade him for Bertuzzi anyways)

62. Dick Axelsson

63. Jamie McBain

69. Steve Mason

71. Brad Marchand

72. Cal Clutterbuck

92. Daniel Larsson

99. James Reimer

112. Matt Beleskey

161. Viktor Stalberg

182. Jan Mursak

189. Derek Dorsett

196. Benn Ferriero

212. Logan Pyett (third-to-last pick)

2007

27. Brendan Smith

43. P.K. Subban (I prefer Smith though)

88. Joakim Andersson

97. Linus Omark

116. Keith Aulie

129. Jamie Benn

148. Randy Cameron

168. Carl Hagelin

178. Zach Torquato

194. Carl Gunnarsson

2008

30. Thomas McCollum

31. Jacob Markstrom (ouch...one pick later)

38. Roman Josi

45. Zac Dalpe

51. Derek Stepan

60. Jimmy Hayes

91. Max Nicastro

93. Braden Holtby

121. Gustav Nyquist (looks like he has the best potential)

The picks from now on are too hard to tell.

2009

32. Landon Ferraro

33. Ryan O'Reilly (really big loss here)

35. Kyle Clifford

46. Robin Lehner

60. Tomas Tatar (looks like a good pick)

Rest of the draft is too hard to tell. Need to wait a few more years. Same thing with 2010 and 2011 draft classes.

All in all, we've drafted pretty well since the lockout. Looking back, we've definitely passed on quite a few gritty players for skill players that never panned out though. But, you could just as easily look at it the other way for a lot of teams; they've passed on skilled players for gritty players that never make it to the show.

It's all a crapshoot. But, I like our stable with Nyquist, Tatar, Smith, Jarnkrok, Pulkkinen, etc.

Edited by Nevermind
F.Michael likes this

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Hindsight of better/comparable players for each draft pick (I may have missed a few)

...yeah, I'm bored

2004

97. Johan Franzen

127. Ryan Callahan (as much as I like the guy, you can't argue Franzen's playoff numbers...we should have had both :) )

128. Evan McGrath

134. Kris Versteeg

150. Mikhail Grabovski

Nothing too bad for the rest of the draft.

2005

19. Jakub Kindl

21. Tuukka Rask

24. TJ Oshie

33. James Neal

35. Marc-Edouard Vlasic

41. Ondrej Pavelec

42. Justin Abdelkader

44. Paul Stastny (this one hurts)

51. Mason Raymond

62. Kristopher Letang (this too...)

72. Jonathan Quick

79. Cody Franson

80. Alex Rappold

85. Ben Bishop

87. Marc-Andre Gragnani

96. Chris Butler

101. Jared Boll

103. Mattias Ritola

105. Keith Yandle

108. Niklas Hjalmarsson

132. Darren Helm (perfect pick!)

137. Johan Ryno

142. Nathan Gerbe (I thought we were the ones to take chances on small players)

175. Juho Mielonen

190. Matt D'Agostini

214. Bretton Stamler

222. Kyle Cumiskey

230. Patric Hornqvist (last pick...Detroit style)

2006

41. Cory Emmerton

44. Nikolai Kulemin

46. Jhonas Enroth

47. Shawn Matthias

50. Milan Lucic (maybe we'd trade him for Bertuzzi anyways)

62. Dick Axelsson

63. Jamie McBain

69. Steve Mason

71. Brad Marchand

72. Cal Clutterbuck

92. Daniel Larsson

99. James Reimer

112. Matt Beleskey

161. Viktor Stalberg

182. Jan Mursak

189. Derek Dorsett

196. Benn Ferriero

212. Logan Pyett (third-to-last pick)

2007

27. Brendan Smith

43. P.K. Subban (I prefer Smith though)

88. Joakim Andersson

97. Linus Omark

116. Keith Aulie

129. Jamie Benn

148. Randy Cameron

168. Carl Hagelin

178. Zach Torquato

194. Carl Gunnarsson

2008

30. Thomas McCollum

31. Jacob Markstrom (ouch...one pick later)

38. Roman Josi

45. Zac Dalpe

51. Derek Stepan

60. Jimmy Hayes

91. Max Nicastro

93. Braden Holtby

121. Gustav Nyquist (looks like he has the best potential)

The picks from now on are too hard to tell.

2009

32. Landon Ferraro

33. Ryan O'Reilly (really big loss here)

35. Kyle Clifford

46. Robin Lehner

60. Tomas Tatar (looks like a good pick)

Rest of the draft is too hard to tell. Need to wait a few more years. Same thing with 2010 and 2011 draft classes.

All in all, we've drafted pretty well since the lockout. Looking back, we've definitely passed on quite a few gritty players for skill players that never panned out though. But, you could just as easily look at it the other way for a lot of teams; they've passed on skilled players for gritty players that never make it to the show.

It's all a crapshoot. But, I like our stable with Nyquist, Tatar, Smith, Jarnkrok, Pulkkinen, etc.

Great list, but it really shows you more success than failure. Really O'Reilly, Lucic, and the Kindl for like five better choices is the only really bad bits. I mean Kindl for Letang would have been an epic improvement. Could you imagine if they traded down and got Neal and Letang with Abs?

You always have to remember any pick changes all the future picks though. Getting Letang might have caused us to pass on Smith. Who knows. I like our prospects, but there were some bad picks. Though show me the GM that gets them all right and I will show you a team that never loses.

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And its not just us that passed on Lucic, its 30 other teams as well...

Anyway, Holland has always said they draft skill over size because players can always get bigger, and if they're standing out as an undersized 17 year old that it says something about their compete level.

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I got in this late, but this wasn't just 1 player, it's been 6.

Anyway, Holland has always said they draft skill over size because players can always get bigger, and if they're standing out as an undersized 17 year old that it says something about their compete level.

Teams in the 1970's drafted size over skill when the NHL was like the UFC.

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And its not just us that passed on Lucic, its 30 other teams as well...

Anyway, Holland has always said they draft skill over size because players can always get bigger, and if they're standing out as an undersized 17 year old that it says something about their compete level.

While it's true that other GM's passed on Lucic, and nobody back then knew what potential he had - however GM's look for a certain "quality" in young players...It's why Holland, and Nill tend to draft smaller/skilled guys like Hudler over brutes like Lucic.

That undersized 17 yr old may do just fine in the Canadian Junior/NCAA/Euro leagues, but the NHL is a different story.

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