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Cali-Wing-Nut

Did Holland build a BMW instead of a Chevy?

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I think when we're all healthy, our 3rd line of Abdelkader-Helm-Miller is pretty good (and would make an even better 4th line), but I totally agree with everyone that our 4th line is completely lacking in identity and purpose. My hope is that the veterans like Homer and Cleary will turn it up in the playoffs - they've been warriors for us in the post-season, but I wonder how much their bodies have left to give.

Homer is a warrior, but his game is playing off of players like Z or Dats. He's not a 4th liner, hence the lack of identity. Cleary could be a beast down there and give his brand of gritty game on the 4th line, plus I think he'd be man enough to accept that role as well.

The analogy of the car, whilst quaint and eloquent, is misleading. It suggests that when we lose one piece the others fall apart. It's more like taking the four wheels to be Dats, Lids, Z, Howie (say for arguments sake) then when they're injured replacing them with a milk crate, a corner section of Scalextric track, an overused VHS of the 1984 Winter Olympics in Sarajevo, and a Fast Break. I know I'm being flippant, but the current situation isn't like we're a crap team who utterly, completely must have them to function whilst other teams can deal with it, it's simply that we're stacked with injuries at the moment and the players who are being asked to come in and replace them either haven't developed yet or are severely inexperienced. In short, they're just DIFFERENT pieces. Whoever it was that said teams like the Pens don't fail like this, I'd like to see them without star centre Crosby AND top scorer Malkin... AND starting goaltender Fleury for that matter........ AND a top-line defencemen like Orpik. Because that's what we've been going through. Not to mention we had players like Bert out (so say, take out Staal there), Helm now....

We're simply injured. It's a bit of a kick in the face to say that without a few certain parts this team isn't worth jack.

I miss Aaron Downey :(

Edited by Wing Across The Pond
Hockeymom1960, 55fan and Nev like this

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If we're sticking with car analogies then losing Nick Lidstrom is like the drive shaft breaking.

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Combined weight of current Wings roster excluding goalies, 4778 lbs. Combined weight of current Sharks roster excluding goalies, 4780 lbs.

do this stat for last year's teams. also take an average-not sure if same number of players.

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You guys know that people have been saying "THE WINGS NEED TO GET BIGGER" and "THE WINGS NEED TO GET FASTER" for decades right? Yes it would be a great think if we could just add size and speed to our team. But EVERYTHING HAS A DRAWBACK. When you add bigger players, they tend to not skate or shoot as well. Why? Because That's just the way nature is. If you had a big fast and super scoring palyer they would hands down dominate the league year in and year out. The same goes with every aspect of the game. Good in one area, lacking in the other. Or you get the rare jack of all trades. But you will never find the ace of all trades because it doesn't exist.

That said, it's more important to find a team who can play off each other's strengths, what ever they be, and mitigate their weaknesses, whatever they may be. Synergy.

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You guys know that people have been saying "THE WINGS NEED TO GET BIGGER" and "THE WINGS NEED TO GET FASTER" for decades right? Yes it would be a great think if we could just add size and speed to our team. But EVERYTHING HAS A DRAWBACK. When you add bigger players, they tend to not skate or shoot as well. Why? Because That's just the way nature is. If you had a big fast and super scoring palyer they would hands down dominate the league year in and year out. The same goes with every aspect of the game. Good in one area, lacking in the other. Or you get the rare jack of all trades. But you will never find the ace of all trades because it doesn't exist.

That said, it's more important to find a team who can play off each other's strengths, what ever they be, and mitigate their weaknesses, whatever they may be. Synergy.

There are big guys available that could play in place of Emmerton, Mursak, Homer (hate to say that), Miller etc.

When the wings have been at their biggest and most physical teams is when theyve been most successful.

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There are big guys available that could play in place of Emmerton, Mursak, Homer (hate to say that), Miller etc.

When the wings have been at their biggest and most physical teams is when theyve been most successful.

Like in 2008? We could go back in a time machine and see the same "WINGS NEED TO GET BIGGER" claims a few weeks before they won the cup.

Well I agree Mursak and Emmerton aren't ready yet, and Holmstrom needs to retire, just getting some big guys isn't going to do anything. They need to mesh with the team and we aren't built to be a big throw your muscle around team. So I would rather see them getting replaced by some more well rounded scorers and shooters. But the last thing I want is one dimensional players just because they are big.

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If you look at two seasons ago where the Wings had to claw and scrap to make the playoffs until they were finally comfortably in the last week or two, it could be argued that throughout the season that roster had an even more absurd amount of injuries. They still made the playoffs and gave a solid effort.

I'm hoping that this season will be different when/if they eventually get healthy again like 2010 and can go deeper in the playoffs.

My point being, like in 2010, I think for the most part they are doing the best they can with what they have at present time. Like everybody else I'm frustrated watching it as well, but I just don't think you can realistically plan or predict a ridiculous number of injuries nearly happening all at once and expect a majority of minor leaguers at present time that are still developing to completely fill the void.

To go to the car anaolgy, if something breaks down and everything else works, you can probably fix it in a decent amount of time. If multiple things break down or you get in a bad car accident where you have to fix parts and repair dents and re-paint doors all at once, it's probably going to take longer regardless of what happened.

Same with this team. And that's not a knock on this team specifically, it's just hard for any roster to play with so many injuries at once. To compare/contrast, while I barely follow the NBA before the playoffs, this year the local team down here, New Orleans Hornets have been decimated with injuries just about all year. Probably was realistic they'd be a .500/slightly above .500 team if fully healthy, but right now they have the worst record in the Western Conference, 2nd worst in NBA. Injuries playing a major factor because of it.

The Wings just need to do the best they can with what they got. No trades or bigger people would've likely prevented these injuries, playing harder or not being soft like people have been throwing around lately (which I can agree with to a degree) wouldn't have prevented these injuries, probably nothing would have. Just hope like hell they can get bodies back fast and resume playing like they were in mid-season.

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You guys know that people have been saying "THE WINGS NEED TO GET BIGGER" and "THE WINGS NEED TO GET FASTER" for decades right? Yes it would be a great think if we could just add size and speed to our team. But EVERYTHING HAS A DRAWBACK. When you add bigger players, they tend to not skate or shoot as well. Why? Because That's just the way nature is. If you had a big fast and super scoring palyer they would hands down dominate the league year in and year out. The same goes with every aspect of the game. Good in one area, lacking in the other. Or you get the rare jack of all trades. But you will never find the ace of all trades because it doesn't exist.

That said, it's more important to find a team who can play off each other's strengths, what ever they be, and mitigate their weaknesses, whatever they may be. Synergy.

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For those thinking that my analagy may not be on track and said that any car with no wheels wont move is missing the point.

Any time you get a flat you put on a spare. Some cars give you a full size that lets you motor on down the road just like before no ifs ands or buts. Other cars like my hi performance Euro car may only have a can of fix a flat. Sometimes all you did is pick up a nail and that will fix it fine, what do you do when you have a blow out? Instead of just grabbing a spare you are stuck, need a tow and have to wait for that super expensive sticky hi po tire gets in to the shop.

So instead of planning for a foreseeable problem a decision was made to chance it in order to make the car lighter not having that extra weight along. Our top lines are similar to this. Lose one guy and you grab the tire goo. Lose 2 and its tow truck time for the team.

I didnt mean anything regarding the economic side of it with bail outs and such. I could have made the same distinction between a Ford and a Ferrari and my point would still be made.

When you have Nicky, D, Howie and Z in good working order there is precision and power that is rivaled by no one. Lose one and the team misfires lose 2 and you cant even keep moving down the road.

Now I wont argue that our team has been assembled with skill and detail but when rubber hits the road you gotta be able to get from point A to point B on your own. I just feel that there is enough room for improvement that the team needs some more durable and interchangable parts. You lose a guy and he is easily replaced by someone else, cheaply and quickly. Losing a one off guy like Nicky is the lynch pin of our team. Although durable in his tenure, without him the team is completely incapable of winning games in a consistent manner. As it stands we have no way of replacing him once hes gone. If the thing wont run without it and a replacement isnt readily available you are stuck with a brick that isnt going to do much.

The chemistry of the team is going to need to be completely changed in order to deal with him gone. A defensive structure that relies on multiple lesser players as opposed to a single aberration of talent like Nicky. In that way even with 2 guys missing the slack is picked up by similar type players. Why pick one guy that does 80% of the work and the other 5 do the other 20 when you can have 3 guys that do 70 percent with the other 3 taking up the balance? It seems to make more sense like that. Granted, nobody is complaining that we have Nicky now, its the withdrawals when he isnt here that is the real problem. I seriously think that surrounding Nick with warm bodies was more the goal than supporting him with above average yet not full blown superstars.

The other issues I see with our team structure is that injury begets injury. One guy goes down and now other key players have to work harder to take up the slack. Its not the grunts its Pav and Howie ect. The added wear and tear doesnt leave them durable for very long. Soon enough you have them injured from too many minutes or killing them selves doing two guys jobs. Our injury situation is part bad luck and part the issue above. I believe that Jimmy and Joey are both injured for this reason.

I am frustrated at the outlook right now but I dont think its going to improve with player turnover this Summer.

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Combined weight of current Wings roster excluding goalies, 4778 lbs. Combined weight of current Sharks roster excluding goalies, 4780 lbs.

Yeah, thank goodness for our big players - Franzen (6-2, 220) and Bertuzzi (6-3, 235) racing in on the forecheck, wearing the opposition down with their hits, battling in front of the net.....and Ericsson (6-5, 220) winning all those battles in the corner, knocking opponents on their asses around our net.... dry.gif

Meanwhile:

Datsyuk (5-11, 195)

Zetterberg (5-11, 195)

Emmerton (6-0, 190)

Fillpulla (6-0, 193)

Helm (5-11, 195)

Nyquist (5-11, 170!)

Hudler (5-9, 178. Yeah right)

Miller (6-2, 178. Beanpole!)

Mursak (5-11, 184)

Eaves (6-0, 191)

Kronwall (6-0, 190)

White (5-10, 191) / Rafalski (5-10, 178. Another yeah right)

Now obviously size isn't everything, and some of our smaller players are also some of our more physical (and best), but across the roster, we're just too damn small, and our 3 biggest players don't play like big men and use their size. I'm happier that our D is bigger with the addition of Quincey and Smith, but the latter is seemingly giving away a goal a game atm with his rookie mistakes, something that cannot be tolerated in the playoffs.

Edited by Nev
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Like in 2008? We could go back in a time machine and see the same "WINGS NEED TO GET BIGGER" claims a few weeks before they won the cup.

Well I agree Mursak and Emmerton aren't ready yet, and Holmstrom needs to retire, just getting some big guys isn't going to do anything. They need to mesh with the team and we aren't built to be a big throw your muscle around team. So I would rather see them getting replaced by some more well rounded scorers and shooters. But the last thing I want is one dimensional players just because they are big.

In 2008 some people were probably still saying that, but that team was still by far the most physical the wings had dressed since the lockout. They also had a bottom 6 with identity. The third line was Draper, Cleary and Drake that season and they knew what they were out there to do. Drake had a big hit a game, all 3 forechecked like crazy, Draper was great defensively and Cleary was a very well rounded player back than.

Bringing up the 2008 team compared to now is a joke

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In 2008 some people were probably still saying that, but that team was still by far the most physical the wings had dressed since the lockout. They also had a bottom 6 with identity. The third line was Draper, Cleary and Drake that season and they knew what they were out there to do. Drake had a big hit a game, all 3 forechecked like crazy, Draper was great defensively and Cleary was a very well rounded player back than.

Bringing up the 2008 team compared to now is a joke

Especially since the 2008 team won a President's trophy, while this team is sinking to a 6 seed.

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here's the last thing I"m going to say about the size thing. Since the lockout, Boston and Anaheim are the only big team that have won a cup. Neither us, Chicago, Pittsburgh, or Carolina were all that big. Big teams CAN win, obviously. And so CAN smaller teams. There's no recipe for building a cup winning team, and being big certainly isn't a prerequisite.

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here's the last thing I"m going to say about the size thing. Since the lockout, Boston and Anaheim are the only big team that have won a cup. Neither us, Chicago, Pittsburgh, or Carolina were all that big. Big teams CAN win, obviously. And so CAN smaller teams. There's no recipe for building a cup winning team, and being big certainly isn't a prerequisite.

I know you can win but its no coincidence Detroits biggest, toughest team won. Chicago had some big boys like Ladd and Buff. Pitty has always beena very physical team and that team was no different. Boston and Anaheim were as big as they come sure, but all those other teams you mentioned were definitely above average physically and size wise

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I know you can win but its no coincidence Detroits biggest, toughest team won. Chicago had some big boys like Ladd and Buff. Pitty has always beena very physical team and that team was no different. Boston and Anaheim were as big as they come sure, but all those other teams you mentioned were definitely above average physically and size wise

Of course they had SOME big boys, every team does. Our team does this year as well. Ladd and Buff are big, so are E, Franzen, Bert, Abby, Kindl, Stuart. Again, Boston and Anaheim were the only teams to win a cup since the lockout who would be considered "big" by NHL standards. The rest were average at most. And I'm not really trying to harp on you here, but anytime someone suggests that you need to be big to win the cup, I point out that Detroit, Pittsburgh, Chicago, and Carolina did it without being big and they respond with "well all those teams were physical". That's not the same thing as big. Of course you can't win a grueling Stanley Cup playoff schedule without being physically tough, nobody would argue that, but I'll argue to the moon that you have to be big. Aside from a handful of players, four of the six winners since the lockout were not big.

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I said this back in July after seeing who all we signed and the changes to the roster we made. I don't expect THIS team to do very much. Yes I'm still a HUGE DIE HARD Wings fan and will always stand behind them but I don't see this team winning a Cup this season. I hope I'm wrong and I still have High Hopes but not High Expectations for this season's team. I look forward to next season. I'd say I look forward to the off-season but essentially I don't becasue I HATE Summer and the Off-Season. I'm very interested in seeing what they Wings do this off-season but this team just doesn't seem to have it this season. Hopefully next season!!

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As I've said in another thread some time ago - over the past several years (since the lock out in particular) there were some really good players available at the draft that Holland passed on, and now these guys are contributing regulars where as the guys Holland/Nill picked only a few will ever be regulars in Detroit.

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As I've said in another thread some time ago - over the past several years (since the lock out in particular) there were some really good players available at the draft that Holland passed on, and now these guys are contributing regulars where as the guys Holland/Nill picked only a few will ever be regulars in Detroit.

I agree with your statement F.Michael!!!!

So the real question we sould be asking is..... Is Holland The Problem and is he getting to old to do this job??

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I agree with your statement F.Michael!!!!

So the real question we sould be asking is..... Is Holland The Problem and is he getting to old to do this job??

No, and no. ALL GM's have passed over players who have turned out to be really good in the NHL. Doesn't mean they are incompetent or should be fired. It means their job is really hard and nobody knows the future.

Edited by kipwinger
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As I've said in another thread some time ago - over the past several years (since the lock out in particular) there were some really good players available at the draft that Holland passed on, and now these guys are contributing regulars where as the guys Holland/Nill picked only a few will ever be regulars in Detroit.

Missing O'Reilly and Clifford for Ferraro hurts the most. Clifford is exactly what every person on this board wants, a tough guy that can play the game well

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Missing O'Reilly and Clifford for Ferraro hurts the most. Clifford is exactly what every person on this board wants, a tough guy that can play the game well

Lucic, and Marchand are 2 more right off the top of my head.

I'm not placing blame upon Holland/Nill for not drafting these guys, but to say that we have the "best GM" along with the "best scouts" is a little off the mark in my opinion.

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I agree with your statement F.Michael!!!!

So the real question we sould be asking is..... Is Holland The Problem and is he getting to old to do this job??

I'm of the opinion that Holland/Nill, and a large portion of the Red Wings scouting staff "look" for certain qualities when watching 16 thru 18 year olds, and in my opinion - skill/skating is what they're looking for.

If the player can throw a big hit, or a punch - that's a bonus...Now on the other hand when ya look at a team like the Boston Bruins - they obviously look at things differently - sort of how the Red Wings drafted, and built the team from the late 80's into the mid 90's.

Those who know me well enough here know what type of team I'd like to see iced every night, and that's a team built along the lines of our 97/98 Cup winning teams, or today's Boston Bruins.

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haha, it just occurred to me that a BMW is a high performance machine and the company is pretty much the industry standard, while Chevy is bankrupt and government owned. I think Chevy is certainly more applicable to Phoenix...and pretty soon New Jersey.

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