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Guest Johnz96

New CBA

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36 members have voted

  1. 1. Regardless of who is at fault, do you think they will lock us out when the new CBA expires if there is a significnt revenue decline when they unlock the doors?

    • Yes
      25
    • No
      5


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No doubt Bettman has been a failure. But i think it just shows that these owners are just as much fault considering that they haven't gotten rid of him yet

Uncle Gary hasn't been a total failure. However, he has failed miserably in the most important area of being the head of any business: the way he treats his employees is deplorable.

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Guest Johnz96   
Guest Johnz96

Uncle Gary hasn't been a total failure. However, he has failed miserably in the most important area of being the head of any business: the way he treats his employees is deplorable.

Even worse, the way he treats his customers is also deplorable

Edited by Johnz96

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One nhl governor submitted a version of his own CBA to Espn. No surprise it's essentially the compromise that we all expect should happen. The part of the article that pertains to the subject of this thread

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/20739/rest-easy-weve-got-your-new-cba-right-here

A veteran agent agreed that this is the kind of compromise on both sides that is needed for a deal, although he remained skeptical that hard-line owners would go for it.

“That type of movement is needed but with Jacobs in charge, it is doubtful,” he said, referring to the chairman of the board of governors, Boston Bruins owner Jeremy Jacobs.

Notice that he said Jacobs, not Bettman.

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One nhl governor submitted a version of his own CBA to Espn. No surprise it's essentially the compromise that we all expect should happen. The part of the article that pertains to the subject of this thread

http://espn.go.com/b...-cba-right-here

Notice that he said Jacobs, not Bettman.

It sounds like Jacobs has been a hugely negative influence on these CBA negotiations.

But he is only one owner out of 30. You have to wonder how one owner could possibly have such a disproportionate amount of influence compared to the others and how he got that power. The simple answer is Bettman.

“He’s in charge,” said Jonathon Gatehouse, whose book

“The Instigator: How Gary Bettman Remade the NHL and Changed the Game Forever,”

the first in-depth biography of Bettman, was recently published. “It has been a gradual process over 20 years and has accelerated since his victory in the last lockout.”

“In the old days, basically the owners ran the league and almost ran it into the ground,” Snider

said last December

. “Now it’s Bettman’s league. He’s a great commissioner. Basically he’s the force behind everything we do.”

Richard Stursberg, the former head of CBC English-language television, recounted in his recently published memoir the negotiations in 2006 and 2007 for the network to renew its N.H.L. contract. He wrote of Bettman “cheerfully” scuttling deals every time Stursberg thought one was close.

http://www.nytimes.c...orcer.html?_r=0

There are many guilty parties here, but top of my list is the commissioner. I guess I don't understand the reluctance to heap blame on the guy who's job it is to ultimately run the league.

Of course it's a tough job. He's got to deal with 30 owners, some of whom sure seem like idiots. And Fehr is no picnic either, but that's the job. It's largely his economic model for the league that has created this massive disparity between teams. And it's largely his strategy to try and remedy it by taking more money from the players, which doesn't address the real problem. It's his choice to have Jeremy Jacobs so deeply involved in these negotiations. Jacobs is as much Bettman's right hand man in this as Daly.

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The owners were exploiting the players in 92

Exploiting?!?! Please. That's a stretch.

It's not as if every single hockey player in the NHL wasn't making far more than the average Joe. I have a very difficult time feeling much sympathy for either the players or the owners.

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Guest Johnz96   
Guest Johnz96

For all those saying Fehr is as responsible as Bettman. That's just not fair.

Fehr first worked for the MLBPA as a lawyer on one specific case in 1975, then was hired as general counsel (on par with Bob Batterman of the NHL) in 1977. He didn't start working as Director of the MLBPA until 1983, officially gaining the title in 1985. So technically any work stoppages that happened prior to his taking over the PA in 1983 are not on his shoulders, but we'll go ahead and look at them anyway...

1980 MLB Strike, lasted 8 days in March, 0 games lost. 1981 MLB Strike, June 12 to July 31, 0 games lost. 1985 MLB Strike, lasted 2 days August 6-7, 0 games lost. 1990 MLB lockout, lasted 32 days in spring, 0 games lost. 1994 MLB Player Strike, lasted 232 days from August 12 to April 2, 931 to 948 games lost plus the entire offseason. From 1995 until his retirement in 2009, the MLB did not have a single additional work stoppage. Until now, as head of the NHLPA he is caught in the 2012-13 NHL Lockout.

Bettman began working as NHL commissioner in 1993. His tenure includes the 1994 NHL Lockout, which lasted 3 months from October 1 to January 11, 468 games lost. In addition, the infamous 2004 NHL Lockout, which lasted 10 months from September 16 to July 13, 1230 games lost plus the entire offseason. Plus the current 2012-13 NHL Lockout, which as of the most recent round of cancelled games puts it at 625 games lost.

So counting this year's NHL Lockout in which both men are involved, we have Fehr with 6 work stoppages and Bettman with 3. So yes, if you just look at it like that, it does seem to paint Fehr as the villain here. However, ignoring this year's lockout as it affects both Fehr and Bettman, of Fehr's 5 MLB work stoppages, only 1 resulted in lost games, whereas both of Bettman's previous NHL work stoppages resulted in lost games. How about total games lost due to work stoppages? Fehr lost 931-948 games due to the 1994 MLB Players strike, while Bettman lost 1698 games during his first two lockouts. What's more, if you consider it in perspective, the MLB plays almost twice as many games a year, 162 games vs the NHL's 82 games. So proportionally, Bettman has caused over 3x as many lost games as Fehr has.

So who has presided over more work stoppages? Fehr, 6 (although only in charge for 4 of those) to 3. But who has caused more games to be lost? Bettman, 3x as many as Fehr has. Who has been involved in more work stoppages that were able to be resolved before any real games were lost? Fehr, 4 of his work stoppages (2 in which he was in charge) were able to be resolved without losing any games, whereas Bettman is now 0 for 3 in saving games...

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Guest Johnz96   
Guest Johnz96

Y'know, I think everything that needs to be said can be said in two words:

Proskauer-Rose.

It's not just them they are involved with all the other leagues. Since Bettman became commissioner of the NHL, they have lost almost twice as many games to labour disputes than all the other leaguues combined.

NFL - 0

NBA - 504

MLB - 938

Total - 1442

NHL - 2323 and counting

It's one word and it's a bad one(please excuse the profanity)

Bettman

It sounds like Jacobs has been a hugely negative influence on these CBA negotiations.

But he is only one owner out of 30. You have to wonder how one owner could possibly have such a disproportionate amount of influence compared to the others and how he got that power. The simple answer is Bettman.

http://www.nytimes.c...orcer.html?_r=0

There are many guilty parties here, but top of my list is the commissioner. I guess I don't understand the reluctance to heap blame on the guy who's job it is to ultimately run the league.

Of course it's a tough job. He's got to deal with 30 owners, some of whom sure seem like idiots. And Fehr is no picnic either, but that's the job. It's largely his economic model for the league that has created this massive disparity between teams. And it's largely his strategy to try and remedy it by taking more money from the players, which doesn't address the real problem. It's his choice to have Jeremy Jacobs so deeply involved in these negotiations. Jacobs is as much Bettman's right hand man in this as Daly.

You forgot to mention his refusal to negotiate. Making demands is not negotiating

Edited by Johnz96

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Guest Playmaker   
Guest Playmaker

I kind of operate on the old saying "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me"...I bought into the Bettman bull**** in '04, that if we only had that hard salary cap, it would fix everything, the league would make a fortune, the owners would prosper, attendance and tv ratings would be up, etc. For our troubles of losing an entire season and getting payroll slashed, Wings fans got a couple of Joe Bucks and an increase in ticket prices and an even lousier schedule.

Well, after losing an entire season, the players caved in and the league got exactly what it wanted. All indications are that the league is making money, the players are getting paid and there's plenty of money to go around. But 7 years later, we're supposed to believe that the owners are suffering and losing money and if only we had a new CBA that restricted the length of player contracts and reduced revenue sharing for the players, all would be well.

As for not blaming Bettman, a true leader is supposed to bring people together and have a united front. The biggest problem is he isn't able to get the owners to agree on anything and the NHL owners, seemingly more than any other league, are out for themselves, not for the the betterment of the league.

Sorry, just not going to get fooled again by more of the league propoganda.

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Guest Playmaker   
Guest Playmaker

Exploiting?!?! Please. That's a stretch.

It's not as if every single hockey player in the NHL wasn't making far more than the average Joe. I have a very difficult time feeling much sympathy for either the players or the owners.

How long does the average NHL career last? Most players aren't superstars making 7 figure salaries for 15 years or more. The vast majority play only a few years. Not to mention, the players put themselves at risk every time they step on the ice. Look at Patrick Eaves, will he ever be "normal" again and live without pain? Keith Primeau probably will never live without the effects of his repeated concussions. Same for the Lindros brothers. Most players will likely have some sort of lasting physical or mental ailment as a result of playing in the NHL. What risk do the owners put themselves at? Are their careers over at 25?

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Don't get me wrong - when non-hockey fans ask me who's really at fault in all of this, I say the owners and Bettman. That's the immediate truth. But I do think this lockout seems to part of a "bigger picture" dealy, what with Proskauer-Rose having its grubby fingers in all four league pies, and the similarities in the "lockout scripts," and Bettman being a P-R alumnus, and Bob Batterman slowly replacing Daly as Bettman's BFF, etc.

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Guest The Axe   
Guest The Axe

I am reaching my limit. Its not fun anymore. Too much business now and not enough sport.

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For all those saying Fehr is as responsible as Bettman. That's just not fair.

Fehr first worked for the MLBPA as a lawyer on one specific case in 1975, then was hired as general counsel (on par with Bob Batterman of the NHL) in 1977. He didn't start working as Director of the MLBPA until 1983, officially gaining the title in 1985. So technically any work stoppages that happened prior to his taking over the PA in 1983 are not on his shoulders, but we'll go ahead and look at them anyway...

1980 MLB Strike, lasted 8 days in March, 0 games lost. 1981 MLB Strike, June 12 to July 31, 0 games lost. 1985 MLB Strike, lasted 2 days August 6-7, 0 games lost. 1990 MLB lockout, lasted 32 days in spring, 0 games lost. 1994 MLB Player Strike, lasted 232 days from August 12 to April 2, 931 to 948 games lost plus the entire offseason. From 1995 until his retirement in 2009, the MLB did not have a single additional work stoppage. Until now, as head of the NHLPA he is caught in the 2012-13 NHL Lockout.

Bettman began working as NHL commissioner in 1993. His tenure includes the 1994 NHL Lockout, which lasted 3 months from October 1 to January 11, 468 games lost. In addition, the infamous 2004 NHL Lockout, which lasted 10 months from September 16 to July 13, 1230 games lost plus the entire offseason. Plus the current 2012-13 NHL Lockout, which as of the most recent round of cancelled games puts it at 625 games lost.

So counting this year's NHL Lockout in which both men are involved, we have Fehr with 6 work stoppages and Bettman with 3. So yes, if you just look at it like that, it does seem to paint Fehr as the villain here. However, ignoring this year's lockout as it affects both Fehr and Bettman, of Fehr's 5 MLB work stoppages, only 1 resulted in lost games, whereas both of Bettman's previous NHL work stoppages resulted in lost games. How about total games lost due to work stoppages? Fehr lost 931-948 games due to the 1994 MLB Players strike, while Bettman lost 1698 games during his first two lockouts. What's more, if you consider it in perspective, the MLB plays almost twice as many games a year, 162 games vs the NHL's 82 games. So proportionally, Bettman has caused over 3x as many lost games as Fehr has.

So who has presided over more work stoppages? Fehr, 6 (although only in charge for 4 of those) to 3. But who has caused more games to be lost? Bettman, 3x as many as Fehr has. Who has been involved in more work stoppages that were able to be resolved before any real games were lost? Fehr, 4 of his work stoppages (2 in which he was in charge) were able to be resolved without losing any games, whereas Bettman is now 0 for 3 in saving games...

whereas blaming bettman as the only one responsible for this lockout is equally unfair.

bottom line is both fehr and bettman have been known to push the envelope in negotiations. both of them should be treated like villains, not just bettman

Edited by chances14

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Guest Johnz96   
Guest Johnz96

whereas blaming bettman as the only one responsible for this lockout is equally unfair.

bottom line is both fehr and bettman have been known to push the envelope in negotiations. both of them should be treated like villains, not just bettman

Before Fehr even became involved with the NHL, they lost more games due to labour disputes than all the major sports leagues combined during his tenure.

Perhaps there's something about the genetics that makes someone a good hockey player that also makes him greedier and stupider than other athletes.

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Before Fehr even became involved with the NHL, they lost more games due to labour disputes than all the major sports leagues combined during his tenure.

Perhaps there's something about the genetics that makes someone a good hockey player that also makes him greedier and stupider than other athletes.

i just don't understand how people can't see both sides as being nothing but villians when both sides have displayed instances of bad faith negotiations during this lockout.

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until bob goodenow took over in 1992, there was never a labor stoppage of any kind in the nhl.

so who actually fired the first shot in this war?

You could argue that the hatred that the NHLPA and NHL haves for one another goes back to Ted Linsay and Co. organizing a union.

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Guest The Axe   
Guest The Axe

You could argue that the hatred that the NHLPA and NHL haves for one another goes back to Ted Linsay and Co. organizing a union.

Good point. CBA needs to be 20 years so we cant lose a season so often.

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You could argue that the hatred that the NHLPA and NHL haves for one another goes back to Ted Linsay and Co. organizing a union.

that's true.

but the labor war didn't begin until the players started striking. kind of ironic actually

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that's true.

but the labor war didn't begin until the players started striking. kind of ironic actually

I would agree that owner/union relations went futher south after the 1992 strike. However I would say that owners did not repect the players during the Eagleson era. The cattle comment would be pretty close to home really during that timeframe. The 1992 strike though was... ill timed. Owners had enjoyed a seat of control and power within their kingdom. To be embarrassed like that would have not sit well with the likes of Jacobs, Wirtz, and co.

I wouldn't say Bettman or Fehr are the cause of this lockout lasting so long, just the face.

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Guest Johnz96   
Guest Johnz96

that's true.

but the labor war didn't begin until the players started striking. kind of ironic actually

The players were being exploited then

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How long does the average NHL career last? Most players aren't superstars making 7 figure salaries for 15 years or more. The vast majority play only a few years. Not to mention, the players put themselves at risk every time they step on the ice. Look at Patrick Eaves, will he ever be "normal" again and live without pain? Keith Primeau probably will never live without the effects of his repeated concussions. Same for the Lindros brothers. Most players will likely have some sort of lasting physical or mental ailment as a result of playing in the NHL. What risk do the owners put themselves at? Are their careers over at 25?

The players know the risks full well and as a result, that's on them. No one's holding a gun to their heads...they have every single right to choose whichever occupation they'd like. Besides, minimum salary in the NHL is $525,000. If you last even 5 years, there's no excuse for you to not be able to live off that the rest of your life if you're willing to live a more modest lifestyle (I.E. $50-$75K per year based on the Economic Rule of 7). How many people have the opportunity to say that when they're roughly 27 years old?

They're not getting sympathy from me. They choose their path and its up to them to make their money last. I know I would if I had NHL Grinder level talent.

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