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Franzen Buyout?


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Poll: Franzen Buyout?

Would you use an amnesty buyout on Franzen this summer?

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#101 DeGraa55

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 10:55 PM

Were else will you find a play of the Mule's caliber for the money he makes. I know he wasn't consistent this year but he still one of our top goal scorer


That's not what we have been arguing. We have been arguing if he is consistent or not.



Now the money for what he is worth....I can understand the argument that he is worth it now(I don't think so cause he does nothing else at all). But my biggest problem is the length of his contract. It was about 4 years too long.

Edited by DeGraa55, 01 June 2013 - 10:56 PM.


#102 FlashyG

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 11:21 PM

That's not what we have been arguing. We have been arguing if he is consistent or not.



Now the money for what he is worth....I can understand the argument that he is worth it now(I don't think so cause he does nothing else at all). But my biggest problem is the length of his contract. It was about 4 years too long.

 

Technically I've been arguing about whether his production is consistent or not. His effort is what's inconsistent about him, but that can't really be measured like his production can.

 

As far as production goes here is a short list of players who have been streakier or less consistent on the scoresheet than Franzen this year.

 

Clarkson, Datsyuk. Perry. Kessel. Toews, Neal, Kunitz, Nash, Staal, and Parise.

 

The list goes on but you can see my point, that other than an elite handful of scorers all players go through stretches where they don't score. At the end of the day their numbers as a whole are more important than they are in any individual stretch of games, and Franzen's production is not only good, but very consistent.

 

You have a point on the length of his deal though, I doubt he'll maintain that level of production until he's 39, but I don't see any upside to buying him out if we can't replace his 25-30 goals a year.



#103 DeGraa55

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 01:06 AM

Technically I've been arguing about whether his production is consistent or not. His effort is what's inconsistent about him, but that can't really be measured like his production can.
 
As far as production goes here is a short list of players who have been streakier or less consistent on the scoresheet than Franzen this year.
 
Clarkson, Datsyuk. Perry. Kessel. Toews, Neal, Kunitz, Nash, Staal, and Parise.
 
The list goes on but you can see my point, that other than an elite handful of scorers all players go through stretches where they don't score. At the end of the day their numbers as a whole are more important than they are in any individual stretch of games, and Franzen's production is not only good, but very consistent.
 
You have a point on the length of his deal though, I doubt he'll maintain that level of production until he's 39, but I don't see any upside to buying him out if we can't replace his 25-30 goals a year.




But earlier when I gave you two examples.

1 guy scores 5 goals a game in 6 games.

Other 1 goal a game in 30 games.

Both play a total of 82 in season.


And you said the first is more consistent which is flat out wrong. I'm not talking about production totals at end of season for anyone. Just came up with random numbers and wanted your answer.

#104 RedLightGoesOn

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 01:24 AM

Franzen's effort is inconsistent and is really holding him back from being a flat out better player. His numbers would easily rise above average, even is +/- ! But when you don't put in a solid effort every night, your production nights will be streaky and occur just at the right times to keep you in the "average" range. Point production might be good, but work ethic is valued on this team more than that. Franzen's work ethic is crap. He is taking up valuable space on our roster and valuable cap money and is a HUGE reason why our 2nd line is crap when Dats and Z play on the 1st. Like I said before, we need to motivate him or get rid of him before its too late. A contract buyout now is crazy talk, but maybe not within 3 years.


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#105 FlashyG

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 01:42 AM

But earlier when I gave you two examples.

1 guy scores 5 goals a game in 6 games.

Other 1 goal a game in 30 games.

Both play a total of 82 in season.


And you said the first is more consistent which is flat out wrong. I'm not talking about production totals at end of season for anyone. Just came up with random numbers and wanted your answer.

 

Where did I say this? I intentionally didn't answer your hypothetical random numbers because it has nothing to do with Franzen, which is the topic of the thread.

 

Of course in that context the guy with 1 goal a game over 30 games is more consistent over that stretch, but I fail to see what that has to do with Franzen, he scored 5 in a game once 2 years ago, he is far closer to the guy who scores 1 goal a game than the guy who scores 5 a game 6 times a season.

 

In fact such a player does not even exist.



#106 DeGraa55

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 01:45 AM

Where did I say this? I intentionally didn't answer your hypothetical random numbers because it has nothing to do with Franzen, which is the topic of the thread.
 
Of course in that context the guy with 1 goal a game over 30 games is more consistent over that stretch, but I fail to see what that has to do with Franzen, he scored 5 in a game once 2 years ago, he is far closer to the guy who scores 1 goal a game than the guy who scores 5 a game 6 times a season.
 
In fact such a player does not even exist.



But that was one if your points. You said something about him scoring 5 goals in a game in a season he had how many goals? That just means more games we got nothing from him at all.

#107 FlashyG

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 02:51 AM

But that was one if your points. You said something about him scoring 5 goals in a game in a season he had how many goals? That just means more games we got nothing from him at all.

 

What are you talking about? I never said anything even close to that. 



#108 DeGraa55

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 03:46 AM

What are you talking about? I never said anything even close to that.




Lol oops it was someone else agreeing with me....gosh I'm tired sorry that was my mistake.

#109 LeftWinger

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 11:54 AM

This is a heated debate that I mostly chose to stay out of because everyone and their uncle's know my opinion of Franzen...

 

Folks who hate him, like me, hate him and aren't going to change their minds.  Folks who defend him, can only say that his cap hit is great for a player who scores in the 20's. Let's look at it this way:

 

Franz's cap hit is $3.9M, we currently have $11.8M in cap space next season with the need to re-sign Brunner, Andersson, Nyquist, Smith and Kindl all at nice raises.  I am really hoping that Filppula gets traded at the draft or just walks, because paying him would take away from that cap space too and we will NEVER be able to get a legit #1 scorer then.  Unless we make a trade. (Which I hope we do trade Franzen.)  Considering his cap hit, sure $3.9M is a good hit right now, and after paying our kids there won't be much left for that scorer (I would say it'll take about $6M of that $11M to resign the kids, leaving $5M for upgrading our offense. Take away Franzen's $3.9M and all of a sudden you have nearly $9M to find that #1 guy.  Buyout Sammy and Bert and gives you even more.

 

and BTW, there is plenty of better players out there who can outscore Franzen that can be had for $3.9M.  Pascal Dupuis being one of them. Alex Burrows only makes $600K more than Franzen and is way better...

 

For what Franzen brings to the game, he is NOT worth his cap hit.  Just because some owners are willing to WAY overpay for someone else who scores 25 goals, doesn't mean that its the going rate.  Franzen's game garner's him $2M a season at the most.  Right now, Abdelkader brings more to this team than Franzen does...

 

This team WITH Franzen is going nowhere.  Holland should be on the phone right now with his buddy Nill or the Cunucks...those are the only teams I think would take on Franzen.  If we keep him, it will hurt us more than it helps.  I could see him MAYBE staying if he stays in the bottom six, but really, our bottom six would suffer with him as well... Trade him or buy him out.  We can use the roster spot and the $4M.


Edited by LeftWinger, 02 June 2013 - 11:56 AM.

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#110 FlashyG

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 12:06 PM

See my problem with peoples perception of Franzen is that he's held to a different standard that the players they compare him too. Others seem to be graded simply on what they produce, but when it comes to Franzen he's judged based on what they think he's capable of producing. 

 

Franzen has routinely out produced both Dupuis and Burrows, In fact the only season Burrows has out scored him at all, Franzen was injured and played only 27 games. Yet you think Franzen is only worth 2 million and Burrows is worth his 4.5 million cap hit. 

 

I've got no problem moving Franzen if its for an upgrade, or after we've upgraded, but there aren't many forwards available that are going to out produce him and even fewer that will out produce him for equal or less money.



#111 stillwater

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 01:23 PM

 

 Alex Burrows only makes $600K more than Franzen and is way better...

 

 

 Last 3 seasons:

 

Burrows - Goals - 67 Assists - 57

 

Franzen - Goals - 71 Assists - 71

 

Fittingly, Marian Hossa also has 71 goals the last 3 seasons


Edited by stillwater, 02 June 2013 - 01:34 PM.


#112 LeftWinger

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 02:43 PM

 Last 3 seasons:

 

Burrows - Goals - 67 Assists - 57

 

Franzen - Goals - 71 Assists - 71

 

Fittingly, Marian Hossa also has 71 goals the last 3 seasons

 

Last three seasons:

 

 Franzen lazy and bored floats air biscuits towards the net, shows up 25% of the season. Burrows gives 100% and actually tries to make plays....


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#113 DeGraa55

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 02:51 PM

See my problem with peoples perception of Franzen is that he's held to a different standard that the players they compare him too. Others seem to be graded simply on what they produce, but when it comes to Franzen he's judged based on what they think he's capable of producing. 
 
Franzen has routinely out produced both Dupuis and Burrows, In fact the only season Burrows has out scored him at all, Franzen was injured and played only 27 games. Yet you think Franzen is only worth 2 million and Burrows is worth his 4.5 million cap hit. 
 
I've got no problem moving Franzen if its for an upgrade, or after we've upgraded, but there aren't many forwards available that are going to out produce him and even fewer that will out produce him for equal or less money.



I don't think its about what we think he can do. Its a matter of what he doesn't do. He doesn't do anything except score 20 some goals a season at an inconsistent rate(hasn't done anything in playoffs last few years). He doesn't do anything else.

Where other guys whether they make more or less IDC. Actually play defense or check or fight or set players up.



If you actually watch tape half of franzens goals maybe more or thanks to DAT or z doing 99% of the work while franzen just sits and watches.

#114 stillwater

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 02:58 PM

 

Last three seasons:

 

 Franzen lazy and bored floats air biscuits towards the net, shows up 25% of the season. Burrows gives 100% and actually tries to make plays....

 

So you'd prefer a guy who "tries to make plays" but succeeds less than the guy who is perceived to not be trying?

 

Those 25% and 100% ... is there any way to substantiate that, or is that just your perception?

 

I'll take the guy who puts up the numbers, you can have the guy who tries really, really hard ... perhaps someday the NHL will give out Participation Trophies and Burrows will get recognized for all that production while playing with, not one, but two of the NHL's perennial high scorers.



#115 DeGraa55

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 03:37 PM

So you'd prefer a guy who "tries to make plays" but succeeds less than the guy who is perceived to not be trying?
 
Those 25% and 100% ... is there any way to substantiate that, or is that just your perception?
 
I'll take the guy who puts up the numbers, you can have the guy who tries really, really hard ... perhaps someday the NHL will give out Participation Trophies and Burrows will get recognized for all that production while playing with, not one, but two of the NHL's perennial high scorers.



The difference is a guy likevfeanzen and a guy like z.


Even when z isn't scoring he still brings defense and leadership and hard work.


Feanzen when he isn't scoring brings.....nothing.

#116 LeftWinger

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 04:34 PM

 

So you'd prefer a guy who "tries to make plays" but succeeds less than the guy who is perceived to not be trying?

 

Those 25% and 100% ... is there any way to substantiate that, or is that just your perception?

 

I'll take the guy who puts up the numbers, you can have the guy who tries really, really hard ... perhaps someday the NHL will give out Participation Trophies and Burrows will get recognized for all that production while playing with, not one, but two of the NHL's perennial high scorers.

 

No I would rather have the guy that brings more to the game then just scoring in bunches once in a blue moon and then does nothing else to help this team...

 

Both he and Franzen have average .5 PPG over their career's, but Burrows has 1:00 less average icetime, has a 13.9 Shooting percentage compared to Franzen's 11.9%.  Burrows has 126 even strength goals compared to Franzen's 102.  Burrows has 16 Short handed goals to Franzen's 4, which means that Burrows is more than a one dimensional player that is used in every situation, Franzen is, well, VERY one dimensional. Burrows is a +131 to Franzen's +99 which means for all of the 8 whole points that Franzen has scored more than Burrows, he is on the ice for a ton more goals against (again, referring to his one dimensional play.)  Burrows has 825 PIM's to Franzen 325 PIM's which means Burrows is a grittier player who isn't afraid to get in the corners and mix it up instead of just throwing someone's mouth guard to the ice...

 

...and using your point, Franzen only has 8 total points more than Burrows while playing with TWO, not ONE of the leagues best players... I would gladly sacrifice 8 points to bring in someone who is better defensively, kills penalties, fights for the puck along with scoring 25-30 a season.


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#117 Playmaker

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 05:03 PM

This is neither in defense or an attack on Franzen, but really, Datsyuk and Zetterberg are also very inconsistent when it comes to goal scoring.  Many times over the past few seasons, each has had an extended goal scoring drought.  Zetterberg had a ton of goals early in the season, then very few through the middle of the season, then came on late. 

 

It certainly can appear that Franzen isn't working hard or putting forth the effort, but that's a difficult thing to judge. 



#118 joshy207

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 05:11 PM

IF the Wings don't use both buyouts this summer, I think they could look at buying him out next summer if he has a bad year.  He has scored at a "consistent" (please forgive the use of that word) pace of 28-29 goals for the last 4 years.  He'll be 34 at the end of next year, which is not an age where players normally start to get better or work harder.  That could be cause for concern if his production begins to drop next year.  However, I hope they use their two compliance buyouts on Samuelsson and either Bertuzzi or Colaiacovo to help create roster room for Andersson, Nyquist, Tatar, DeKeyser, and possibly Lashoff to stick full-time next year, and also for any possible free agent signings they may want to make.  So that would mean we're stuck with Franzen until either his deal expires or he retires.



#119 LeftWinger

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 05:17 PM

This is neither in defense or an attack on Franzen, but really, Datsyuk and Zetterberg are also very inconsistent when it comes to goal scoring.  Many times over the past few seasons, each has had an extended goal scoring drought.  Zetterberg had a ton of goals early in the season, then very few through the middle of the season, then came on late. 

 

It certainly can appear that Franzen isn't working hard or putting forth the effort, but that's a difficult thing to judge. 

 

Which is why a change of scenery would probably do wonders for him.  If Sammy can go to Vancouver and score 30 goals with the Sedins, Franzen can absolutely go there a get 35+.  Would I love a 35+ goal scorer here? Of course! But Franzen is not going to top 30 here, he probably won't even get 30 here.  I am not saying Burrows needs a change of scenery, but you have to give up to get.  Now, if they wanted to throw us their 1st round pick, I am in too.

 

It's my understanding that Vancouver needs a center though. Franzen was drafted as a center, but I think he is more of a winger now...

 

Whatever, this is why I don't put names in because people think that this the trade that has to happen...who knows what kind of return we'd get for Franzen....I just know that he is useless on our team.  His spot and $4M could be used better elsewhere...not that they would trade him, but what if we had to make some cap room for acquiring Weber from Nashville? That $4M would come in handy!


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#120 joshy207

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 05:28 PM

Vancouver needed a #2 center early this year, their depth was drained with Kesler and Malhotra out.  Kesler is back, so they wouldn't need any higher than a #3 center.  I agree with you, Franzen would probably do a lot more damage in Vancouver than he does here.  Probably true for Filppula too.  Just like other guys do better once they come here (i.e. Cleary).







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