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Franzen Buyout?

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   206 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you use an amnesty buyout on Franzen this summer?

    • Yes
      59
    • No
      125

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205 posts in this topic

So can you buyout 3 players then?

Sammy, Bert and Franzen?

Am I missing anyone else that people want to buyout?

I think Sammy should be the only one. Bert is prob a good extra to have around. He can fill in on any line, and other than his weird injury this season he has been healthy and good for some secondary scoring.

Franzen has a decent cap hit, and IMO can be traded without much issue to a bottom feeder.

I think Coli proved valuable, and got better and better each game. he can be a good dman to have around if he stays healthy.

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There is no way we can afford (talent-wise) to buy him out. I mean, we clearly need more scoring. If we bought him out, we'd struggle to find pieces that could allow us just to break even with this year offensively. And don't pretend like Tatar would come close.

Trading him, as others have mentioned, might be feasible if we get back decent offense in return. I'd still be against it, but it's an option. But buying him out? It's embarrassing that there are so many people that actually voted for that.

Many people around here will never acknowledge this, but I'll just throw it out there:

Losing Jiri Hudler hurt. Obviously he didn't have a lot of the intangibles (and wanted too much money). But we lost a 50 point scorer. It does hurt, regardless of his other shortcomings. Notice how we needed more scoring this year?

And now some people want to lose a 30 goal scorer as well by buying him out? I get being pissed off with some things, but sometimes you have to acknowledge that you can't get a perfect player and that 30 goal players are valuable.

Edited by Zetts
Frozen-Man and marcaractac like this

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Why would he retire? he can just go on LTIR get his full salary for a year or 2 and help the team by not having his cap hit count against their payroll.

its what Philly is doing with Pronger.

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No. If he retired with one year left, they would be on the hook for a one year cap hit of 2.95 million.

That link you post shows what his penalty would be if he retired with 2 years left.

DUDE check yourself the penalty if he retires on his last year is 8+ million ... jesus ... no idea where you get this 2.95 from

Why would he retire? he can just go on LTIR get his full salary for a year or 2 and help the team by not having his cap hit count against their payroll.

its what Philly is doing with Pronger.

pronger is injured different story everyone knows hes basically done ... as for mule theres a good chance he wont play on one of those years if not both for 1 million a season ... zetterberg is in the same boat but i can see him playing like alfredsson did for 1 mill

Edited by nyqvististhefuture

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People keep saying that it's a "cap friendly" contract, which it is...now. But that doesn't necessarily make it a good contract for the full life of the contract, in light of the new CBA. As people have pointed out above, there are significant penalties in the millions of dollars if he retires early.

And he's going to retire "early". Does anyone look at Franzen and think "There's a guy who can stay motivated to stay in NHL shape until he's 40"? I don't. I see a large a guy with a history of knee problems, who doesn't have the cerebral game of a Larionov or Datsyuk that would allow those players to help a team probably until their early-to-mid 40's. People will be looking at him in a year or two wondering where his legs went, just as they did with Holmstrom a few years ago. Even a guy like Brian Rafalski, who nobody accused of being "done", hung it up when he was 37. Franzen is also Swedish, so the allure of being in the U.S. for 82-game seasons where he's no longer a Top 6 forward might not appeal to him like they might to a North American player "just hanging on".

I'd have to have a better understanding of the CBA implications to say for sure what I would do, but I think this is a closer question than a lot of people think.

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As time goes by the NHL will likely have to address situations like that of Pronger. Philly is guilty of a pretty blatant circumvention of the intention of the cap (note that circumventing the intention of the contract rather than the letter of the contract is a much different thing, and likely not something you can penalize). As it stands it's pretty clear Pronger isn't actively moving toward anything but retirement and the only reason he hasn't retired is to keep his contract off the books. Now because he couldn't likely pass a physical (not that most active NHL players his age likely can pass a standard physical) the NHLPA could easily protest any action taken against him the NHL's hands appeared tied. What I'd like to see is this: if a player misses an entire season due to injury without retiring their contract slides forward another year (the team would still have to pay them for the injured year but that's something they insure contracts against anyway so owner complaints would fall on deaf ears). This should definitely be appealable based on circumstance. In Pronger's case I could imagine a legitimate appeal based on the fact that his contract is so obnoxiously long sliding it forward another year would be a significant penalty in terms of having to pay a player farther into their declining years. On the other hand it's hard to feel bad for Philly when the sign a player that old to such a long term contract that is so clearly designed to circumvent the cap.

The Pronger and Luongo contracts really stretched the premise of Holland's Franzen/Zetterberg contracts thin. With the Z/Franzen contracts they were signing a relatively young, pending UFA they drafted to contract the player would likely play out (expiring as a 40 year old). With Pronger and Luongo it was pretty clear neither player would be playing until they were 43 years old. That extra 3 years is a huge difference. Hell, in Pronger's case he signed the contract as a 35+ meaning the team would be on the hook no matter what. And by "no matter what" I mean "unless they pretend he's just working through an injury for five and a half straight years". Pronger played 13 games last season and zero this season. It's pretty absurd at this point to keep pretending he's going to make a magic come back as a 39 year old player next season who hasn't played in almost 2 years.



So can you buyout 3 players then?

Sammy, Bert and Franzen?

Am I missing anyone else that people want to buyout?

Each team gets 2 amnesty style buy outs of contracts signed before the current CBA.

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DUDE check yourself the penalty if he retires on his last year is 8+ million ... jesus ... no idea where you get this 2.95 from

pronger is injured different story everyone knows hes basically done ... as for mule theres a good chance he wont play on one of those years if not both for 1 million a season ... zetterberg is in the same boat but i can see him playing like alfredsson did for 1 mill

Do. The. Math.

Its the difference in salary paid out and cap savings of years played on the deal, divided by remaining years left when retired. stop coming up with incorrect numbers on the internet. The math is pretty easy.

Edited by marcaractac

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Franzen is going down hill and is useless the majority of the time. He skates lazily, makes mistakes, doesn't put much effort in, etc. I don't think someone who has proven to be largely ineffective and unmotivated worth any cap hit. What is worse is he doesn't seem to care and is way to comfortable making a fair chunk of change while playing like crap and being outpeformed by Cleary in the CHI series. This guy is a nonfactor for us.

If we aren't prepared to motivate him by benching him or scratching him, I say we look to unload him in the near future via trade and get some value out of him before it is too late.

LidsFan likes this

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Guys, use capgeek and read. If franzen was to retire in the Summer of 2017, 4 seasons from now we would have a cap it of 2,772,727 for 3 more seasons. If he was to retire in the summer of 2016, our cap hit would be just under 2.1 million for 4 seasons. I he retires in the summer of 2018 the cap hit is 4.16 million for 2 seasons. If he retires in the summer of 2019 the hit is 8.32 million for 1 season.

In any of these events he costs us money on our cap, when he is not even playing. The hit is worse as he gets closer to the end of his contract. Now if we buy him out, he gives us a $0 cap hit. he is going to get paid his 22.5 million no matter what we/he does.

Z and D for the C likes this

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Franzens last couple seasons were summed up perfectly in one shift last night. It was in the 3rd when the Wings were pressing. Hank was in the corner working hard trying to shake a defender for a good 10-15 seconds. Franzen parks his ass at the faceoff circle and just stares at Hank. Doesnt try to improve his shooting angle, get open, or support Hank in any way. Just stares at him while Hank is working away the whole time. When Hank finally shakes the guy and is able to get the puck to Franzen shoots a weak shot into Crawford chest. I dont care how "managable" the guys cap number is. A manageable cap number means nothing when you don't produce when it matters. Franzen has been a no show in the playoffs for three straights years now. You cant claim he "turns it on in the playoffs" anymore because he just doesnt. Thats not even mentioning the multiple times Franzen has gone 15 to 20 games without a goal. Thats fine if your in the bottom 6. Not if your getting top 6 and PP time. Add in that he brings absolutely nothing to the team when hes not scoring and that manageable cap number looks worse every day.

LidsFan likes this

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Franzens last couple seasons were summed up perfectly in one shift last night. It was in the 3rd when the Wings were pressing. Hank was in the corner working hard trying to shake a defender for a good 10-15 seconds. Franzen parks his ass at the faceoff circle and just stares at Hank. Doesnt try to improve his shooting angle, get open, or support Hank in any way. Just stares at him while Hank is working away the whole time. When Hank finally shakes the guy and is able to get the puck to Franzen shoots a weak shot into Crawford chest. I dont care how "managable" the guys cap number is. A manageable cap number means nothing when you don't produce when it matters. Franzen has been a no show in the playoffs for three straights years now. You cant claim he "turns it on in the playoffs" anymore because he just doesnt. Thats not even mentioning the multiple times Franzen has gone 15 to 20 games without a goal. Thats fine if your in the bottom 6. Not if your getting top 6 and PP time. Add in that he brings absolutely nothing to the team when hes not scoring and that manageable cap number looks worse every day.

The longest Franzen went without a point this year was 6 games, and that was when he was playing hurt due to our rash of injuries early in the season.

He's led the team in goals for the past 2 seasons and was 2nd this year only because he played fewer games than Datsyuk. Its true that he often floats out there, and that he was terrible in last nights game but even with all his obvious faults he's still one of the best players on this team.

If there was a trade out there bringing us back a top pairing defenceman, or a better top 6 forward than Johan I'd be all for dealing him but he's too valuable to the team to be let go without replacing him and there isn't anyone available that are likely to produce anywhere near what he does without costing significantly more.

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I would buy Franzen out if you can't trade him but I think they will keep him and buy out guys with 1 year left just to open up roster space

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Do. The. Math.

Its the difference in salary paid out and cap savings of years played on the deal, divided by remaining years left when retired. stop coming up with incorrect numbers on the internet. The math is pretty easy.

why dont you email capgeek then and tell them there wrong and your correct

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If Holland is talking about having Bert and Sammy back (as mentioned in other places here) I highly doubt Franzen will be bought out. I have a weird feeling that a combination of loyalty, saving face, and not having a ready replacement will prevent this. I don't know what we will do about the cap hit if he retires. I feel that Z will play his entire contract, but not Franzen ...

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If Holland is talking about having Bert and Sammy back (as mentioned in other places here) I highly doubt Franzen will be bought out. I have a weird feeling that a combination of loyalty, saving face, and not having a ready replacement will prevent this. I don't know what we will do about the cap hit if he retires. I feel that Z will play his entire contract, but not Franzen ...

THIS. Using buyouts is a way for a NEW GM to clean up old messes (gomez). No incumbant GM is going to admit a bad signing, much less 2, by dumping players he signed. "Yah boss, I burned 11 mil of yours for no reason. Turns out we cant even use this slow, old guy."

Zetts likes this

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Buying him out doesn't make much sense. Trading him does.

Now, if we can only find a partner with something to offer.

LidsFan likes this

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Buying him out doesn't make much sense. Trading him does.

Now, if we can only find a partner with something to offer.

Franzen cant be moved.

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Why not? No trade clause?

He might want a new beginning as well.

Too much downside, not enough upside. I dont even think we could give him away to be honest. Contract is just too long.

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Guys, use capgeek and read. If franzen was to retire in the Summer of 2017, 4 seasons from now we would have a cap it of 2,772,727 for 3 more seasons. If he was to retire in the summer of 2016, our cap hit would be just under 2.1 million for 4 seasons. I he retires in the summer of 2018 the cap hit is 4.16 million for 2 seasons. If he retires in the summer of 2019 the hit is 8.32 million for 1 season.

In any of these events he costs us money on our cap, when he is not even playing. The hit is worse as he gets closer to the end of his contract. Now if we buy him out, he gives us a $0 cap hit. he is going to get paid his 22.5 million no matter what we/he does.

This. If his cap hit came off when he retired, no way should we buy him out. But we will be saddled with a big cap hit for nothing. If he plays till the end of his contract, he'll be an even more frustrating player for the last 4 years of it (if not more) and we'll be paying $4m for him.

Franzen isn't going to be getting any better.

Edited by Z and D for the C

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Yes...yes I would. The lack of consistency needs to be address in the top 6. Z and D are not gonna be moved... so might as well supply them with wingers that can play with some effort and consistency. Be it the replacements are our own young players or they came via a trade.

Flip, Mule, Bert, and Sammy (even though he didn't play much this season) are all expendable.

LidsFan likes this

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This. If his cap hit came off when he retired, no way should we buy him out. But we will be saddled with a big cap hit for nothing. If he plays till the end of his contract, he'll be an even more frustrating player for the last 4 years of it (if not more) and we'll be paying $4m for him.

Franzen isn't going to be getting any better.

I dont think u know the value of a dollar. 22.5 million buyout gets Ken Holland fired immediately. Its not monopoly money.

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I don't see why Tootoo should be bought out. He did exactly what was expected of him-play physical, drop the gloves when needed, and put up a few points.

If you're not enough of an asset to crack the lineup in the playoffs, then I don't think you're doing what was expected. He was a healthy scratch far too often. I don't think he did what management expected or else he wouldn't be in the press box so often.

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When asked if the talk of buying out Franzen was Crazy, Holland replied "To me it is".

Franzen will be back next year.

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