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FireCaptain

Holland on SiriusXM w/ audio link

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I'm talking about playoffs.

jim-mora-sr.jpg

Montreal has been physically bullied in the playoffs by the Senators and Bruins in recent memory.

They didn't sign Parros because he could help them score goals or help God (Carey Price) stop shots.

How many of these goons do you think see time in the playoffs? I'll give the answer: not many. Ironically, the pace and intensity of the playoffs is the very thing that excludes enforcers; teams do not have the space to spend on players whose main aptitude lies in fighting, as they require players who can contribute on offense and defense and thus usefully occupy time on ice. For example, your favorite enforcer, Mr. McGrattan, has not seen a single second of playoff time in his NHL career. George Parros saw very infrequent use by the Ducks, contributing zero points and one fight, the last an undecided bout against Douglas Murray. Zenon Konopka has likewise played very infrequently, suiting up for only eight playoff games in his career; oddly enough, he has only nine cumulative hits in those eight contests. Colton Orr, last season's premiere tough guy, played seven games, threw 18 hits, and contributed absolutely nothing else of substance while residing dead last in ice time per game. And of all of the fights in the postseason, none included pure enforcer types.

The simple fact is that the likes of Probert, Domi, and Kocur, guys who could win fights and also succeed at their offensive and defensive duties, have largely disappeared from this league. Sure, you could today include amongst that list maybe Chris Neil, Shawn Thornton, but they're rare. Most fighters are simply a waste of a roster space in the postseason, whose style of play has no place for them.

The "hit" stat, much like +/-, is a joke to begin with. It's completely subjective, is kept by the home team and is usually biased in their favor. But don't let that hinder your "research".

esteef

Considering all teams play roughly the same amount of home games, wouldn't the subjective bias have essentially no effect?

All teams play 41 away games and 41 home games.

There you go, esteef. While it's true that hit totals are sometimes biased in favor of the home team (I think "usually" may be a stretch, and that you have in mind only that infamous contest against the Blue Jackets), it's very likely that any infrequent bias that does occur evens out. And given that your claim was given in the context of asserting that Eastern teams hit more, what's to say that they don't inflate their hit totals more than Western teams? Whatever the case, the type of statistical bias you're implying the presence of most likely effects very little net change in the cumulative figures.

Edited by Crymson
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jim-mora-sr.jpg

How many of these goons do you think see time in the playoffs? I'll give the answer: not many. Ironically, the pace and intensity of the playoffs is the very thing that excludes enforcers; teams do not have the space to spend on players whose main aptitude lies in fighting, as they require players who can contribute on offense and defense and thus usefully occupy time on ice. For example, your favorite enforcer, Mr. McGrattan, has not seen a single second of playoff time in his NHL career. George Parros saw very infrequent use by the Ducks, contributing zero points and one fight, the last an undecided bout against Douglas Murray. Zenon Konopka has likewise played very infrequently, suiting up for only eight playoff games in his career; oddly enough, he has only nine cumulative hits in those eight contests. Colton Orr, last season's premiere tough guy, played seven games, threw 18 hits, and contributed absolutely nothing else of substance while residing dead last in ice time per game. And of all of the fights in the postseason, none included pure enforcer types.

The simple fact is that the likes of Probert, Domi, and Kocur, guys who could win fights and also succeed at their offensive and defensive duties, have largely disappeared from this league. Sure, you could today include amongst that list maybe Chris Neil, Shawn Thornton, but they're rare. Most fighters are simply a waste of a roster space in the postseason, whose style of play has no place for them.

All teams play 41 away games and 41 home games.

There you go, esteef. While it's true that hit totals are sometimes biased in favor of the home team (I think "usually" may be a stretch, and that you have in mind only that infamous contest against the Blue Jackets), it's very likely that any infrequent bias that does occur evens out. And given that your claim was given in the context of asserting that Eastern teams hit more, what's to say that they don't inflate their hit totals more than Western teams? Whatever the case, the type of statistical bias you're implying the presence of most likely effects very little net change in the cumulative figures.

Then maybe you should be a coach in the NHL, since many of these coaches are apparently "wasting roster space" when they dress guys like Orr, Matt Kassian or Parros for occasional playoff games.

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Then maybe you should be a coach in the NHL, since many of these coaches are apparently "wasting roster space" when they dress guys like Orr, Matt Kassian or Parros for occasional playoff games.

See "occasional" playoff games. These coaches are the exception, not the rule, and the instances on which they play their enforcers are, even for those coaches, likewise the exception rather than the rule.

Edited by Crymson

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The Sharks and Ducks haven't had goons for years.

The Blues have and I've been upset at how guys like Backes and Stewart were given free reign to drill our stars into the boards and start scrums after whistles.

Goons were never the concern with the Sharks and Ducks teams of the later 2000s. Physicality was the concern. I can't count the number of times people claimed that the Wings couldn't make it in a seven-game series with the Flames/Duck/Sharks/whoever else. Those teams play differently now, most likely in the main because of coaching changes.

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Chicago did sit Carcillo

Let me expand on this, Carcillo sat during the playoffs and didnt play against the Wings and Chicago was successful

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Let me expand on this, Carcillo sat during the playoffs and didnt play against the Wings and Chicago was successful

And the Wings sat Tootoo and lost.

esteef

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All teams play 41 away games and 41 home games.

There you go, esteef. While it's true that hit totals are sometimes biased in favor of the home team (I think "usually" may be a stretch, and that you have in mind only that infamous contest against the Blue Jackets), it's very likely that any infrequent bias that does occur evens out. And given that your claim was given in the context of asserting that Eastern teams hit more, what's to say that they don't inflate their hit totals more than Western teams? Whatever the case, the type of statistical bias you're implying the presence of most likely effects very little net change in the cumulative figures.

So if everybody lies at the same rate your theory holds up. Got it.

esteef

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And the Wings sat Tootoo and lost.

esteef

And the Wings sat Tootoo and lost.

esteef

The Blackhawks racked up less hits than the Wings despite playing in twice as many series. Tootoo was not exactly necessary as a countermeasure, and the players inserted in his place made valuable contributions.

That said, given the vacuity of logic to your statement, I'm genuinely pretty sure that you're just toying around.

So if everybody lies at the same rate your theory holds up. Got it.

esteef

Again, pretty sure you're just toying around. I don't have any interest in rising to it.

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It would be hard for me to believe that you don't understand the concept of small sample size.

The playoffs was 14 games. Links and tables have been post showing no discernible difference in size, hitting or fighting in the East and West.

Years of stats is a trend, 14 games is dumb luck ...

So Cleary's points were dumb luck? It's not even worth arguing that one but my point was stats not telling the whole story. I was using a ridiculous example.

More specific to the topic, Detroit's 10 games against the East in 2008 is meaningless for predicting how they'll fair this coming season.

Those are also small sample sizes, and there's a lot of variables that will be different.

Or as I mentioned previously, it's also about more than size. Franzen is 6'3" 223 lbs. If you cover the name but look at those numbers a lot of people equate that with a physical player because he's huge, which is obviously not the case. Same with Kindl. Whereas there's plenty of guys who play much bigger than they are.

I don't think you can make a blanket statement that the east is tougher, though they will face some very physical teams. it remains to be seen how they'll do.

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I see my light come shining

From the West unto the East

Any day now, any day now

I shall be released

They say every man needs protection...

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The Ducks, Blues and Sharks routinely throw the goons at us and we always handle well.

I mentioned in another post that Kronwall may neuter his game a bit if he gets jumped after every clean Kronwalling.

I would argue that the Sharks gooning it up against us combined with playing a similar system was extremely effective... we haven't handled it well at all. I’ve come to expect us to lose against them be it regular season or playoffs because they are the only team I have seen that is able to shut us down on a consistent basis.

Edited by RedWingsDad
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Goons were never the concern with the Sharks and Ducks teams of the later 2000s. Physicality was the concern. I can't count the number of times people claimed that the Wings couldn't make it in a seven-game series with the Flames/Duck/Sharks/whoever else. Those teams play differently now, most likely in the main because of coaching changes.

I was trying to convey this in my original post about 'goons'.

Thanks Crymson...spot on!

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