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Datsyukian-Deke

Kesler traded to Anaheim

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@gcom007

Im almost 100% positive he's aware how fast he lost 3/4 d men, and you're not giving him his due.

id take Ericsson over Stuart any day.

I'd take dd now over the last two years of rafalski.

He filled from within, which would've gotten praise had he landed an elite defender, unfortunately he couldnt pull it off.

And that's not being negative, its realistic.

Prospects don't always turn out like you thought, but I kind of believe those players have already played the way off the team, they went bad instead of turning overripe.

And Holland signed players.for depth.

It sucks those depth players were bert, and Cleary and it was unfortunate that nyq had to sit out to start, but we needed the the veteran presence whenever we could get it last year.

The only one I really full heartedly.didn't like was Sammy.

He would've gotten his praise if he'd just add another Stuart into the mix. You're not going to pull Lidstroms and Rafalski's out of your hat very often at all, but if you can't do that, you need more average core guys. I don't think you're really giving Rafalski his full due, even considering his fading performance in the last couple years, but DD is definitely a solid edition either way, and Ericsson has become better than many including myself expected. I think you might not be giving Stuart his full due either though when you say you'd take Ericsson over him any day, but my point isn't to compare. Like I said, I can easily reconcile the fact that we didn't land an elite defenseman to fill the hole left by Lidstrom. What I don't understand is why after failing to land some of the bigger names we were after, in three years since Rafalski retired and two years since Lidstrom and Stuart retired/left, why haven't we found a way to bring in another defenseman who at least solidifies our top four? Again, to be abundantly clear because I don't think people get this at all, I'm not talking about bring in an elite defenseman, I'm talking about bringing in a dependable mid-level defenseman that should cost around $4 million but you end up overpaying at closer to $5 million, or you have to trade a prospect you like.

Our defense isn't great by any means, but given that we lost Lidstrom, Rafalski and Stuart in the span of a year, it's utterly and completely shocking that we're not way worse, especially considering how many minutes some of those jokers ended up playing down the stretch.

Seriously, imagine how much better our defense would be with another top-four defenseman...

It might not seem like much, but take a second to really stop and think about the fact that we had to rely so much on Kindl, Lashoff and Quincey, and the fact that Smith and DD are still developing, and Kronwall ultimately is a reluctant number one, and Ericsson, while improved, is still a little bit of the classic Ericsson from time to time.

Having a solid veteran in the mix that easily cracks the top four doesn't automatically make us a contender or make the defense great, but it would make the whole situation a whole lot more solid to the point that if and when Howard gets back to playing like we know he can, we're really not going to be hurting as much from losing Lidstrom as we thought we might be.

But it doesn't matter, because Holland has been too busy signing old, broken, knee-skaters to play forward instead of finding a way to make a deal for a solid defenseman that would instantly make this team a lot better.

That is the sort of thing that just kills me about Holland.

And I liked Bert more than most at his price, and as said, part of me even was fine with signing Cleary last year. I don't dislike these guys completely. But would I rather roll with a few more kids and spend a little bit more to bring in veterans that I know will be able to crack the lineup when healthy? Absolutely. We still end up overpaying for the veteran scrubs we keep scraping from the bottom of a long dry well, so why not role with a few more cheaper kids and pay a bit more money to sign better mid-level vets/role players? Holland talks like he doesn't want to overpay guys, but his actions say he just doesn't want to overpay guys he's never employed before. He's proven that he's perfectly willing to overpay former Wings that want to come back to pad their retirement savings after being abandoned by the teams they left us for.

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The funny part is law school would have taught you to write concisely lol

Source: Law grad

Ha. I still sometimes question my decision. I was doubling in history and economics with a minor in PR and doing 18 credit loads year round essentially, given the 9 credit loads I took in the spring and summer terms. I think I ultimately made the right choice for me when it comes to skipping law school, but I went from one extreme to another academically, largely out of frustration and exhaustion, not to mention a dismal economic outlook. Enter idealism and the whole "do what you love" thing. Now I have...a music degree...that I don't use in the I.T. jobs that pay most of my bills.

Life.

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Ha. I still sometimes question my decision. I was doubling in history and economics with a minor in PR and doing 18 credit loads year round essentially, given the 9 credit loads I took in the spring and summer terms. I think I ultimately made the right choice for me when it comes to skipping law school, but I went from one extreme to another academically, largely out of frustration and exhaustion, not to mention a dismal economic outlook. Enter idealism and the whole "do what you love" thing. Now I have...a music degree...that I don't use in the I.T. jobs that pay most of my bills.

Life.

Don't worry, there are so many attorneys these days that most most can't find work.

I saw Kesler at a Tigers game once with Chris Conner. He's indeed 6'2" and hits a lot, but he looked all of 180 lbs when I saw him. Skinny as a rail. He's a hot head who could learn from Kronwall. He'll be perfect for the Ducks.

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See I don't even think that we do need a fresh approach at GM. I think this is actually been the plan all along possibly, since about 2011. We didn't get Suter, and we drafted 4 defensemen who could be the cornerstones of our blue line for years to come in that draft and by that point we had guys like Nyquist, Tatar and co rising through the system. KH knew the way to get back to the top after losing Lids and Rafalski and missing out on Suter wasn't to trade the future for now now now, it was to quietly build up the prospects we had into great NHL players who could then step in when they were ready and compliment a solid core. In the meantime, he patched up the holes with depth players to keep us competitive so that if/when the kids came in, they'd be entered into a winning environment.

This is my theory that I'm going with here. I reckon they saw that they had some really good kids down the road in 2 years or so that might be able to have an impact, so they're simply sticking with the plan. Which is also why I don't think they'll make a big trade for that number 1 D man. They don't need it. Sproul, Ouellet and Marchenko will fill the void either this season or next, so why give up assets for a short term benefit that really isn't going to get you a cup, when you could have a much better blue line in 3 years? It really is all about the long game here, and I think we'll be pretty happy with the results when it comes to fruition.

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The scouts don't have final say in the pick.

Ken holland does.

Also.

A lot of the scouts are ken holland hires.

The scouts advise him. If you think Holland makes every decision on his own, you are sorely mistaken. He relies on the scouts and trusts them, and he pick players off the list they come up with together.

Exactly. He uses the people he hires properly, something a lot of bosses don't do.

I just think it's funny that his detractors blame him for everything they don't like because he has the final say (which he doesn't in the end, he has bosses too) but the good things happen because of everyone else.

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Guest Playmaker   
Guest Playmaker

In Holland's defense, he did get someone to replace Brad Stuart. Kyle Quincey. Yes, it turned out to be a horrible trade, but at the time Quincey had put together a few solid years with the Kings and Avs and it didn't seem out of the question he could be a #4 type defenseman.

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Guest Playmaker   
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Also, Ken Holland did have a plan to replace Lidstrom. It was signing Ryan Suter. The fact that he and Parise were going to tag team at the last minute and make themselves a package deal took everyone off guard. They really didn't have the room to sign them both and from my recollection, Minnesota wasn't even considered to be in the mix originally. That seemed to have come out of no where and surprised most of the hockey pundits. Should he be blamed for putting all his eggs in one basket. Probably. But, after Suter was signed, there wasn't much left on the Free Agent heap after that. He was kind of stuck. They didn't have much in the way of young players or draft picks to part with to get anyone of quality. While it's easy to say he should have "planned ahead", Lidstrom was talking about returning to Sweden for at least 5 years before he ultimately did. It also wouldn't have surprised anyone if Nick had played another 2 or 3 years. At what point do you bring in a replacement for him? Then if he doesn't leave you have cap issues.

As I said before, when Holland was signing all the "old guys" before he was considered a genius. They were crafty veterans, not worthless old guys. Holland could be accused of going to that well too often and not realizing that it isn't as effective when those guys have to play more prominent roles instead of being depth guys. But, trying to strike that balance and keep under the cap probably isn't as easy as it sounds.

I do agree that the blind loyalty has to stop at some point. I will go postal for sure if Cleary gets any kind of a contract to return as a player. I got the Samuelsson signing at the time, in that he had experience on the point and was RH and he was somewhat serviceable in VAN and FLA, but the 2 years at 3 million+NTC was insanity.

I realize a lot of the under 30 fans are totally spoiled rotten and don't remember a time when the Wings weren't good and that it's inconceivable that they aren't challenging for the Cup every year. That Holland was able to keep this team competitive and re-tool and get a Cup in 2008 is quite the accomplishment. Teams like the Red Wings, the New England Patriots, the San Antonio Spurs, the St. Louis Cardinals, that are able to be competitive year after year for extended periods are the exception not the rule. It's those teams that are able to find diamonds in the rough, the late round draft picks, the other teams rejects, etc. The system is set up to discourage dynasties and encourage parity.

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Yeah, after Suter it was a bunch of second pairing guys that year, most of whom got upwards of $5 mil per.

As far as Cleary goes, as long as it's a 2-way deal and he spends 95% of the season in GR except for a call up for a few games, that's fine. If they lose a kid on waivers because they want to keep Dand M-F-ing Cleary, I'm going to be pissed.

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Yeah, after Suter it was a bunch of second pairing guys that year, most of whom got upwards of $5 mil per.

As far as Cleary goes, as long as it's a 2-way deal and he spends 95% of the season in GR except for a call up for a few games, that's fine. If they lose a kid on waivers because they want to keep Dand M-F-ing Cleary, I'm going to be pissed.

Same. I won't go postal if Cleary's re-signed, as long as it's a two way deal.

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Guest DeGraa55   
Guest DeGraa55

Well I definitely don't want to make it seem like Holland can't, and hasn't, made mistakes. We know he does. Particularly when it comes to player acquisition post 2005 lockout.

But I'd agree with Rick in saying that despite his shortcomings, the draft is one area in which Holland has almost universally excelled.

I agree even when he still done boneheaded stuff in the draft it come from good things.

Example....getting an extra third last year(good move). Then follows up by a TERRIBLE move by drafting a guy we could've got in round 5 6 or 7 in bertuzzi.

But yes I agree the scouts AND holland and anyone else involved have done a great job of drafting players.

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I agree even when he still done boneheaded stuff in the draft it come from good things.

Example....getting an extra third last year(good move). Then follows up by a TERRIBLE move by drafting a guy we could've got in round 5 6 or 7 in bertuzzi.

But yes I agree the scouts AND holland and anyone else involved have done a great job of drafting players.

How do you know he wouldn't have been picked before then had they waited? They obviously liked him and had him targeted, and he's shown enough this last year to make it a legit pick. 34 points in 29 games is a nice step up from the previous year.

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Guest DeGraa55   
Guest DeGraa55

How do you know he wouldn't have been picked before then had they waited? They obviously liked him and had him targeted, and he's shown enough this last year to make it a legit pick. 34 points in 29 games is a nice step up from the previous year.

You're right I just go by what the experts had him rated at. I don't remember exactly but I believe the highest I saw was like 260 or so. So ya....

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Guest Playmaker   
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Keeping Cleary around is like keeping your fat clothes after you lost weight. You think you won't want them or need them, but they're there just in case. Even though they are old totally worn out, you keep them thinking that one day you might need them and don't want to spend the money on something good and new.

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