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Datsyukian-Deke

Kesler traded to Anaheim

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I'm agreeing with everyone except there's an elephant in the room in your list...

Lang??? Don't get me wrong, he played alright, but I didn't think he was anything special.

At the time of the trade he was leading the league in points though he didn't finish that high.

While we didn't get a cup with him I thought it was a smart trade.

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Yeah, Lang helped. I'm surprised Rafalski's signing is not being considered a big signing. He may have been aging but he was still a blockbuster signing as one of the best defenders in the league.

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I'll ask again, and maybe get an answer from some of the "Not a destination franchise" conspiracy theorists. I think fans think if they repeat it enough times it will make it so. The facts just don't support it.

Who are all these high quality players who have refused to play for the Red Wings? Kesler didn't have Boston on his list, does that make them not a "Destination Franchise". He didn't have the LA Kings, you know the team that's won two of the past three Stanley Cups? I guess they aren't a destination franchise either.

All the same fans bemoaning the loss of getting Kesler were the same ones whining we didn't get Bobby Ryan. How'd that work out for Ottawa? Made them a contender, eh? Luckily for Ryan, they were a destination franchise with a history of winning and a bright future.

Who were all these big name free agents that the Wings signed year in and year out before?

Do I like all the moves that Holland has made? No. But fans expect Holland to keep all the youth, keep all the stars, and still trade for top quality talent and sign every free agent on the market all while having low draft picks year after year.

No franchise, in any sport, is a contender every single year for decades at a time. Get over it.

I specifically said that I don't give a rats ass about Kesler and that you can't blame Holland for not getting Kesler when we clearly had no chance based on Kesler's list. I'm honestly glad we didn't get him because I don't think he'd make the kind of difference we really need and hopefully at this point people will stop obsessing over the possibility of trading for him. I only got into the matter in this thread because rick zombo, one who speaks up on Holland's behalf almost as much as many others criticize him, touched on the very thing that I think ultimately summarizes the problem with Ken Holland's management of this team over the last five years. It just continues to boggle my mind how people can see the problem that we now have and not look at the big picture and question how it came to this.

Believe me, I am the last person who thinks it's realistic to be able to sign all the stars for cheap, draft high, take advantage of killer lopsided trades in our favor, and so on. I get that you don't win every year. I get that you're not a contender every year.

But five years ago, and for many years beforehand, we were easily one of the top 3-4 destination teams year in and year out. We'd be on most players lists who had NTCs. We'd have a fair shot at signing free agents who want to be part of a franchise that goes for it every year. Sure, it was still absurd to expect to sign everybody and trade for everybody, and I never suggested otherwise at the time, but like I said, we were in a much better position to do so relative to the position we're in now.

It'd be one thing if you could say that we're still up there near the top, because no matter what, it was going to be harder to have the kind of teams we had at the start of the cap era when we were able to pay elite players like Dats and Z far less than they would ultimately be worth when they would eventually sign deals as UFAs. I get that and respect that and I'm totally fine with that because in all honesty, I think the parity that the cap has brought really has made hockey more exciting in general. But we're no where near the top anymore; we're lucky to be floating around the middle, and it's becoming ever more debatable how much we deserve to even be there.

When you really stop to think of where this team was at five years ago, it's truly shocking that we have fallen as far as we have. We were a fresh Cup winner, and came within one goal of winning back to back Cups. We were a team that people wanted to be a part of, and despite the fact that the cap era has minimized the leverage any one team can have, we still had what little of it was left to be had, and it's an incredible benefit more than ever in the cap era. And we also had a fair amount of mid-level talent that we ultimately could've afforded to move in order to make deals that might have solidified the future of this team. But that's where much of the problem began.

We had tremendous luck with some of our low draft picks over the years, and I think it's fair to say that it might've caused management to become a little overly confident about certain guys. It's hard to even hold it against them though when you look at the string of luck we had. But whether or not some of the guys we got hung up on had even developed into the types of players they hoped they'd be, we had other needs to account for, and we no longer had the ability to buy our way out of a dilemma in the cap era. We also had golden opportunities to lock up already developed talent that we let slip away because we didn't want to part with younger players or prospects. In the cap era, you've got to give something up to get something in return, and we had assets to move. Sure, it'd sting if we moved a guy that went on to become another Datsyuk, but if you do so in order to bring in elite talent, or you do so to bring in people who can bridge the gap between the Lidstrom era and the post-Lidstrom era, you've got to make the move. You can't sit by idly waiting for Lidstrom to retire while hoping every draft pick turns into a star, but that's basically exactly what Holland did, and look where we're at now.

Holland didn't prepare for the future, plain and simple. He dropped the ball. Whatever plans he may or may not have had do not matter, because the bottom line is nothing happened. We watched three of our top four defensemen leave in the span of one year, and Holland to this day has failed to address even a Stuart-sized hole.

For the love, you go on about how it's ridiculous to think that we can sign everyone and give up nothing and basically run a team like it's a video game, but are you really going to sit on that high horse and suggest that at some point in the last five years, Holland couldn't have found a way to at least sign or trade for a defenseman that's on the same level as Stuart??? And do you want to tell me that even something such as that would be asking too much, despite the fact that he's the least talented of the defensemen we lost?

I know I get wordy when I post (spending too many years as a history major screwed me over for life when it comes to being concise...), but I really don't think you are at all recognizing the simple point I'm making nor the fact that I'm not at all whining about a failure to land elite guys. What bothers me is that he can't even find a way to bring in good mid-level guys, and on top of that, the mediocre mid-level guys he keeps bringing in have mostly been colossal flops that amounted to cap space being burned for nothing. And the only thing that bothers me about Holland not wanting to overpay for elite players is that he says these things and then goes on to overpay for mid-level players that literally do nothing to help this team.

And most of them are forwards!!!

We still haven't filled a single hole on defense with a meaningful player that one could compare to Stuart, and we keep blowing money on completely ineffective forwards.

For five years now, this team has been slipping, and Holland truly seems to be at a loss as to how to at all slow it down. Please, give me some examples of things that he's done that have made the team better and added some stability that can be relied upon to help the team over the next 3-4 years. What has he done in the last five years, while the team has gone from being at the top of the league to barely floating in the middle, to suggest that he is leading this club in the right direction?

Again, believe me, I know full well that you have to be a fool to think that anyone could pull off a tenth of what some of the crazy fans expect out of the GM, but five years into this slide, I think it takes another sort of fool to think that Holland isn't largely responsible for the pace of this team's free fall into mediocrity. Even if you were to be completely objective with an extra dose of generosity, I don't think you could come close to finding as many good moves and decisions Holland has made in the last five years compared to his bad moves, his missed opportunities, and his inability to follow through on any sort of transition plan. And he's supposed to be the best GM in the league? Absolutely, without a single solitary shred of doubt, he has not come even remotely close to being the best GM in the league over the last five years.

At some point the excuses have to end, and it needs to be very, very, very soon. Just as Rafalski's retirement should've been a wakeup call to start building a transition bridge for the defense, Z's back injury should be a wakeup call that we need to be start building a transition bridge for offense and perhaps more importantly, leadership. If he thinks it's been hard to deal with the struggles of the last three years, I shudder to think of how he'll react to the struggles to come as we near the end of Datsyuk's and Zetterberg's careers.

I won't say that he doesn't have it in him to be a great GM somewhere, but I simply can't find a reason to say that I believe he has it in him to be an effective GM of the Detroit Red Wings anymore. Believe me, I wish I could, as I have nothing against him personally. But five years into an ongoing free fall from elite status to mediocrity marked by far more bad moves than good ones leaves me little hope of him turning it around. I'm not saying he's incapable of it, and it's totally reasonable to believe that maybe he will find a way of turning it around. Even I can admit that it's totally possible and that he has the general knowledge and skill level to do it, but at some point he's got to prove he still has the nerve and foresight to run this team well in the cap era, and if he can't do that very, very, very soon, he needs to be replaced.

Edited by gcom007

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@gcom007

I dont necessarily disagree with your points, just the conclusion youre coming to.

Five years ago our core players were in the midst of the prime of the careers, and we had arguably the best defenseman ofall time on the back end..

Realistically, noone would be able to replace half of what Lidstrom did night in and out, and anyone that would come close would eat up HUGE chunk of our cap space.

It'd be nice to have brought in Big names sure, but we've been successful for so long and brought in so Many outside guys it depleted the farm team, which in the parity days IS A NECESSITY to stand a chance of having any kind of sustainable success..

Yeah kh had made a few absolutely abysmal choices, but he's a huge part of the reason we have a team that can basically roll our ahl team onto the ice and still be competitive, all while were stocking talent.

So were not THE destination for free agents anymore.

Free agency isnt what it once was because of the cap, why not take the extra year and millions of dollars to stay in a comfortable place.

don't get me wrong.

I Really, really, really want z to win a cup as captain, and datsyuk deserves at least a few more.

but there's still going to be a salary cap when they're gone, we need to keep the kids rolling through so were not handcuffed like Pittsburgh is with Crosby and malkin.

Or like chicago could be if the reports on Kane and toews are true.

And when z retires, weve got danny Dekeyser, Gustav nyquist, Tatar....there will be plenty of options to be C, not even mentioning the talent coming up.

At some point reasons need to stop being referred to as excuses by those who don't understand the explanation.

And for all your disheveled statements about holland preparing for datsyuk and z, youre telling him to go out and build a bridge when weve got half a room full of kids who build dams.

Edited by jimmyemeryhunter
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And I'm "another sort of fool," because i don't believe Holland's the biggest reason for the decline?

Ken Holland is not a magical creature.

He can not heal injuries with a wave of a wand,

nor magic dust, which he does have,

But he sprinkles that on the countless interns and assistants that end up becoming head coaches and gms.

Ken Holland is not father time.

He can not stop the aging process of some, nor can He can speed up the maturing process of others.

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And I'm "another sort of fool," because i don't believe Holland's the biggest reason for the decline?

Ken Holland is not a magical creature.

He can not heal injuries with a wave of a wand,

nor magic dust, which he does have,

But he sprinkles that on the countless interns and assistants that end up becoming head coaches and gms.

Ken Holland is not father time.

He can not stop the aging process of some, nor can He can speed up the maturing process of others.

Ken holland controls which broken down old players he keeps. He decides which 35+ players to keep repeatedly bringing back. He decides to sign old aging, injury prone players to take spots away from kids. Edited by DeGraa55

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Ken holland controls which broken down old players he keeps. He decides which 35+ players to keep repeatedly bringing back. He decides to sign old aging, injury prone players to take spots away from kids.

He signed them so he could ease those kids into the spots without overwhelming them..

Ken Hollands the reason we have those kids in the first place.

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He signed them so he could ease those kids into the spots without overwhelming them..

Ken Hollands the reason we have those kids in the first place.

Incorrect.

The scouts are the reason we have those kids.

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Incorrect.

The scouts are the reason we have those kids.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

The scouts don't have final say in the pick.

Ken holland does.

Also.

A lot of the scouts are ken holland hires.

Edited by jimmyemeryhunter
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The scouts don't have final say in the pick.

Ken holland does.

Also.

A lot of the scouts are ken holland hires.

The scouts advise him. If you think Holland makes every decision on his own, you are sorely mistaken. He relies on the scouts and trusts them, and he pick players off the list they come up with together.

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The scouts advise him. If you think Holland makes every decision on his own, you are sorely mistaken. He relies on the scouts and trusts them, and he pick players off the list they come up with together.

I never said he did..

I Never even implied it.

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If Holland's scouts are responsible for the picks he made as GM, then' he's responsible for the pics that happened when he was the head of scouting under other GMs. You know, guys like Fedorov, Osgood, Holmstrom, Lidstrom, Konstantinov, Primeau, Kozlov, Sillinger, Lapointe, Knuble, and McCarty.

What a bum.

Nev, number9, marcaractac and 5 others like this

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Some of you may disagree with his approach to trades and UFA signings. Fair enough.

But one thing Holland can do as a GM is run a draft.

I think we should all, as intelligent Wings fans, be able to agree on this.

woah woah woah!!! who are YOU to call ME intelligent? the nerve of some people, I swear...

If Holland's scouts are responsible for the picks he made as GM, then' he's responsible for the pics that happened when he was the head of scouting under other GMs. You know, guys like Fedorov, Osgood, Holmstrom, Lidstrom, Konstantinov, Primeau, Kozlov, Sillinger, Lapointe, Knuble, and McCarty.

What a bum.

my god, when you lay it all out there, coupled with all the guys that were drafted with him as a gm, it really goes to show, he has no idea what he is doing

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Some of you may disagree with his approach to trades and UFA signings. Fair enough.

But one thing Holland can do as a GM is run a draft.

I think we should all, as intelligent Wings fans, be able to agree on this.

Five minutes ago I'd have agreed with you.

But he's clown shoes in the draft.

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@gcom007

I dont necessarily disagree with your points, just the conclusion youre coming to.

Five years ago our core players were in the midst of the prime of the careers, and we had arguably the best defenseman ofall time on the back end..

Realistically, noone would be able to replace half of what Lidstrom did night in and out, and anyone that would come close would eat up HUGE chunk of our cap space.

It'd be nice to have brought in Big names sure, but we've been successful for so long and brought in so Many outside guys it depleted the farm team, which in the parity days IS A NECESSITY to stand a chance of having any kind of sustainable success..

Yeah kh had made a few absolutely abysmal choices, but he's a huge part of the reason we have a team that can basically roll our ahl team onto the ice and still be competitive, all while were stocking talent.

So were not THE destination for free agents anymore.

Free agency isnt what it once was because of the cap, why not take the extra year and millions of dollars to stay in a comfortable place.

don't get me wrong.

I Really, really, really want z to win a cup as captain, and datsyuk deserves at least a few more.

but there's still going to be a salary cap when they're gone, we need to keep the kids rolling through so were not handcuffed like Pittsburgh is with Crosby and malkin.

Or like chicago could be if the reports on Kane and toews are true.

And when z retires, weve got danny Dekeyser, Gustav nyquist, Tatar....there will be plenty of options to be C, not even mentioning the talent coming up.

At some point reasons need to stop being referred to as excuses by those who don't understand the explanation.

And for all your disheveled statements about holland preparing for datsyuk and z, youre telling him to go out and build a bridge when weve got half a room full of kids who build dams.

Again, to be clear, bear in mind that I haven't once said that Holland failed because he didn't sign an elite defenseman. Sure, I think he should've tried to bring another higher level guy before Lidstrom left, and I say that knowing full well that it'd cost us a lot and it'd likely have compromised some of our offensive depth. I think if Holland had played the situation better, he would've been shopping for the high-end defenseman he wanted before Lidstrom retired, not after when our backs are against the wall and we have to deal with the loss of Stuart too. But whatever; it didn't happen and realistically that is a tougher thing to pull off. If it was just that, I wouldn't be upset, but as I said, what blows my mind is that he hasn't even brought in a guy that could fill a Stuart-sized hole.

Elite defenseman don't grow on trees, I get that, and it's ideal to not overpay for higher end guys if you can. But there are a lot more quality d-men out there that could fill in the hole Stuart left, and when you really think about just that hole being filled in the context of our current defense, it's not hard to see how much a guy like that would help, perhaps even dramatically. Even if we had to overpay a bit for an above-average mid-level defenseman, I think it would be well worth it, and again, it's something that Holland absolutely should've been able to have done at some point over the last three years.

But you know, even that wouldn't bother me quite so much if not for the fact that he seems to have forgotten that we lost three top four defensemen, and instead has spent more time signing old, typically washed up, mid-level scrubs that oftentimes have done nothing to help this team and have only burnt through cap space. And most would agree that they would've been overpaid had they even played, but when you consider that many didn't even play, my mind just goes numb when I turn to look at what he's done for the defense in the same span of time.

Bottom line, I'm really a lot less concerned with bringing in big names than most. It's always nice when you can find a high end guy who makes your team better, but it's foolish to think you're going to pull those deals off too often in the cap era. But if you can't find a way to plug holes with solid, dependable mid-level guys at least, you wind up in the sort of mess we've been in for awhile now.

You mention that he's the reason that we can roll teams that can be competitive with the Grand Rapids kids, but that clearly wasn't part of his plans in either of the last two years. We've stumbled into the playoffs the last couple of years largely based off the steam from GR call ups, but the team that Holland put together that was supposed to do the job either couldn't stay healthy or the players were so bad that they couldn't even beat a minor leaguer out for an NHL job on an injury-plagued team. Meanwhile, again, we're wasting valuable cap space on these guys Ken Holland signed to fill out the team, but we still don't want to overpay anyone who could actually contribute and fill a hole.

I don't know how involved Ken Holland is in our scouting program, but even so, it seems like the point your making illustrates that Holland doesn't have a good handle on the players he has. If these kids are good enough to beat out the guys he's signing and help the team make the playoffs, why are we wasting time and money signing guys that won't play when we could get these kids up and growing in the NHL, and at much cheaper prices than the mid-level scrubs they're winning spots from? I'll give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to our scouting and drafting program, and it's why I've said that it'd be ideal to keep him in the organization if possible if we go in another direction at GM. But as said, I still think you have to stop and question our strategy with the kids and thus also with how we pursue outside talent via trade or free agency when you look at how the last couple of years have gone specifically. Maybe it's time to start thinking about building teams with AHLers that are ripe as opposed to waiting for them to be overripe, and use the extra cap space saved from using younger guys to be more aggressive in signing the mid-level talent that you know can make your team better and maintain a spot in the lineup.

But lastly, about the kids, I'm very optimistic, but I'm trying to be realistic too. Yes, we have half a room of kids with potential to build dams, but realistically speaking, if we're lucky, half of them will pan out to be solid NHLers, and only half of them will go full blown Ville Leino. It might sound negative or pessimistic, but realistically, it's pretty much inevitable. And as much as I'd like to be optimistic enough to believe Nyquist and Tatar could eventually fill the shoes of Z and Dats...and to be utterly and completely clear, I really like these guys, a lot, seriously, a lot...but if I'm being brutally honest with myself, I'd be shocked if they reached the levels of Z and Dats. They're real good players with a lot of potential and I hope they have long careers as Red Wings, but it's still way too early to expect them to become elite guys. It's possible, but I don't think either has the innate, almost supernatural talent of Dats, which truly was blatantly evident immediately, and Z is just an all around warrior of a player that few compare to. I'm not going to hold either player to the standards of Dats and Z at this point because it's simply not fair to them at all, and it's bound to lead to being unnecessarily disappointed in them. Furthermore, both Nyquist and Tatar completely disappeared in the playoffs, so clearly, they still have some learning to do and some important things to prove before we really get an idea of the level of players they'll be over the course of their careers. I'm not saying we should be worried, I'm just saying we should stay grounded and reasonable.

Long story short though, I like our kids, I really do, but we don't have any that you can be sure that you'll be able to build a team around, and we generally don't draft high enough to get the kind of players that are really worth taking those bigger bets on. If Holland wants to float in-between rebuilding mode and a tweaking mode, we need to do a better job of bringing in proven NHL talent that is at least good enough to crack the lineup on the regular and contribute to this team. Again, I'm not saying we need to sign or trade for superstars. Not at all. Obviously it's great to get those guys when you can, but at this point, we haven't even been able to successfully bring in outside mid-level talent! That's ultimately what does kill me about some of the Holland bashers, because they piss and moan about missing out on the big names when the real story and concern lies more in Holland's inability to recruit role players that can crack the lineup. And that's the worst part of this.

We still have a great core in Dats and Z. Kronwall is better suited to be a number two guys and loses some of his effectiveness in certain areas of his game having to be the number one guy, but even so, he's still a hell of defenseman. Jimmy at his worst is still capable of getting the job done if he gets a little bit better defense in front of him, and at his best, he's brilliant. If we'd do a better job of integrating our kids in a little sooner, trimming some of the washed-up veteran fat, and sucking it up and overpay if you have to a bit to bring in another solid top four defenseman, we'd be a lot closer to contender status. I've been saying it for years because I believe it fully: any team with Dats and Z in the lineup is a team capable of making the playoffs. I don't think we're nearly as far from being a contender as some think, but between the numerous bonehead moves Holland's made for forwards and his utter and complete lack of ability to bring in a proven NHL defenseman that solidifies our top four, the team just continues to slip deeper into a funk, and all the while the core guys are getting older and less-effective. It's just a real shame to me.

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Well I definitely don't want to make it seem like Holland can't, and hasn't, made mistakes. We know he does. Particularly when it comes to player acquisition post 2005 lockout.

But I'd agree with Rick in saying that despite his shortcomings, the draft is one area in which Holland has almost universally excelled.

Edited by kipwinger
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Again, to be clear, bear in mind that I haven't once said that Holland failed because he didn't sign an elite defenseman. Sure, I think he should've tried to bring another higher level guy before Lidstrom left, and I say that knowing full well that it'd cost us a lot and it'd likely have compromised some of our offensive depth. I think if Holland had played the situation better, he would've been shopping for the high-end defenseman he wanted before Lidstrom retired, not after when our backs are against the wall and we have to deal with the loss of Stuart too. But whatever; it didn't happen and realistically that is a tougher thing to pull off. If it was just that, I wouldn't be upset, but as I said, what blows my mind is that he hasn't even brought in a guy that could fill a Stuart-sized hole.

Elite defenseman don't grow on trees, I get that, and it's ideal to not overpay for higher end guys if you can. But there are a lot more quality d-men out there that could fill in the hole Stuart left, and when you really think about just that hole being filled in the context of our current defense, it's not hard to see how much a guy like that would help, perhaps even dramatically. Even if we had to overpay a bit for an above-average mid-level defenseman, I think it would be well worth it, and again, it's something that Holland absolutely should've been able to have done at some point over the last three years.

But you know, even that wouldn't bother me quite so much if not for the fact that he seems to have forgotten that we lost three top four defensemen, and instead has spent more time signing old, typically washed up, mid-level scrubs that oftentimes have done nothing to help this team and have only burnt through cap space. And most would agree that they would've been overpaid had they even played, but when you consider that many didn't even play, my mind just goes numb when I turn to look at what he's done for the defense in the same span of time.

Bottom line, I'm really a lot less concerned with bringing in big names than most. It's always nice when you can find a high end guy who makes your team better, but it's foolish to think you're going to pull those deals off too often in the cap era. But if you can't find a way to plug holes with solid, dependable mid-level guys at least, you wind up in the sort of mess we've been in for awhile now.

You mention that he's the reason that we can roll teams that can be competitive with the Grand Rapids kids, but that clearly wasn't part of his plans in either of the last two years. We've stumbled into the playoffs the last couple of years largely based off the steam from GR call ups, but the team that Holland put together that was supposed to do the job either couldn't stay healthy or the players were so bad that they couldn't even beat a minor leaguer out for an NHL job on an injury-plagued team. Meanwhile, again, we're wasting valuable cap space on these guys Ken Holland signed to fill out the team, but we still don't want to overpay anyone who could actually contribute and fill a hole.

I don't know how involved Ken Holland is in our scouting program, but even so, it seems like the point your making illustrates that Holland doesn't have a good handle on the players he has. If these kids are good enough to beat out the guys he's signing and help the team make the playoffs, why are we wasting time and money signing guys that won't play when we could get these kids up and growing in the NHL, and at much cheaper prices than the mid-level scrubs they're winning spots from? I'll give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to our scouting and drafting program, and it's why I've said that it'd be ideal to keep him in the organization if possible if we go in another direction at GM. But as said, I still think you have to stop and question our strategy with the kids and thus also with how we pursue outside talent via trade or free agency when you look at how the last couple of years have gone specifically. Maybe it's time to start thinking about building teams with AHLers that are ripe as opposed to waiting for them to be overripe, and use the extra cap space saved from using younger guys to be more aggressive in signing the mid-level talent that you know can make your team better and maintain a spot in the lineup.

But lastly, about the kids, I'm very optimistic, but I'm trying to be realistic too. Yes, we have half a room of kids with potential to build dams, but realistically speaking, if we're lucky, half of them will pan out to be solid NHLers, and only half of them will go full blown Ville Leino. It might sound negative or pessimistic, but realistically, it's pretty much inevitable. And as much as I'd like to be optimistic enough to believe Nyquist and Tatar could eventually fill the shoes of Z and Dats...and to be utterly and completely clear, I really like these guys, a lot, seriously, a lot...but if I'm being brutally honest with myself, I'd be shocked if they reached the levels of Z and Dats. They're real good players with a lot of potential and I hope they have long careers as Red Wings, but it's still way too early to expect them to become elite guys. It's possible, but I don't think either has the innate, almost supernatural talent of Dats, which truly was blatantly evident immediately, and Z is just an all around warrior of a player that few compare to. I'm not going to hold either player to the standards of Dats and Z at this point because it's simply not fair to them at all, and it's bound to lead to being unnecessarily disappointed in them. Furthermore, both Nyquist and Tatar completely disappeared in the playoffs, so clearly, they still have some learning to do and some important things to prove before we really get an idea of the level of players they'll be over the course of their careers. I'm not saying we should be worried, I'm just saying we should stay grounded and reasonable.

Long story short though, I like our kids, I really do, but we don't have any that you can be sure that you'll be able to build a team around, and we generally don't draft high enough to get the kind of players that are really worth taking those bigger bets on. If Holland wants to float in-between rebuilding mode and a tweaking mode, we need to do a better job of bringing in proven NHL talent that is at least good enough to crack the lineup on the regular and contribute to this team. Again, I'm not saying we need to sign or trade for superstars. Not at all. Obviously it's great to get those guys when you can, but at this point, we haven't even been able to successfully bring in outside mid-level talent! That's ultimately what does kill me about some of the Holland bashers, because they piss and moan about missing out on the big names when the real story and concern lies more in Holland's inability to recruit role players that can crack the lineup. And that's the worst part of this.

We still have a great core in Dats and Z. Kronwall is better suited to be a number two guys and loses some of his effectiveness in certain areas of his game having to be the number one guy, but even so, he's still a hell of defenseman. Jimmy at his worst is still capable of getting the job done if he gets a little bit better defense in front of him, and at his best, he's brilliant. If we'd do a better job of integrating our kids in a little sooner, trimming some of the washed-up veteran fat, and sucking it up and overpay if you have to a bit to bring in another solid top four defenseman, we'd be a lot closer to contender status. I've been saying it for years because I believe it fully: any team with Dats and Z in the lineup is a team capable of making the playoffs. I don't think we're nearly as far from being a contender as some think, but between the numerous bonehead moves Holland's made for forwards and his utter and complete lack of ability to bring in a proven NHL defenseman that solidifies our top four, the team just continues to slip deeper into a funk, and all the while the core guys are getting older and less-effective. It's just a real shame to me.

:lol:

marcaractac likes this

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I don't know what Red Wings drafting has to do with Kesler and the Ducks but yeah we draft well.

Unless Anaheim's young players really become elite this year, which could happen, I don't think Kesler puts them anywhere close to over the top.

krsmith17 likes this

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@gcom007

Im almost 100% positive he's aware how fast he lost 3/4 d men, and you're not giving him his due.

id take Ericsson over Stuart any day.

I'd take dd now over the last two years of rafalski.

He filled from within, which would've gotten praise had he landed an elite defender, unfortunately he couldnt pull it off.

And that's not being negative, its realistic.

Prospects don't always turn out like you thought, but I kind of believe those players have already played the way off the team, they went bad instead of turning overripe.

And Holland signed players.for depth.

It sucks those depth players were bert, and Cleary and it was unfortunate that nyq had to sit out to start, but we needed the the veteran presence whenever we could get it last year.

The only one I really full heartedly.didn't like was Sammy.

krsmith17 likes this

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Some of you may disagree with his approach to trades and UFA signings. Fair enough.

But one thing Holland can do as a GM is run a draft.

I think we should all, as intelligent Wings fans, be able to agree on this.

Absolutely. Again, as said, I think it's getting to the point where we need a fresh perspective from a GM. But if we can do so while keeping Holland in the organization, it's a win-win. Again, I don't know how intimately involved he is in all of the processes that go into drafting, but I can't take anything away from the success we've had drafting, and I'm more than willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on that front.

To be utterly and completely clear, I don't think the guy is an idiot at all. And to be honest, if he became the GM of another team, I wouldn't be shocked at all if he built a great program from the ground up. I don't doubt the guys hockey sense and I don't doubt the quality of his "craft" I suppose you could say.

What I doubt is his ability to still effectively apply his craft at the GM position in Detroit. He's a loyal guy, and perhaps a sentimental guy, which in so many ways are great traits to have when you're talking about being a good human being. But I think it's become abundantly clear that these traits haven't served him so well in the cap era. I'm generally a loyal guy and somewhat sentimental as well, and there's a part of me that hates the idea of letting guys like Cleary go, or not giving Bert one more "one more last chance" at a Cup, but you've got to be realistic about what's best for the team and make some tough decisions. You've also got to get more comfortable with the idea of bringing in guys you're less familiar with, because again, clearly, the old guys have been mediocre at best and oftentimes total disasters.

That Holland is even entertaining the idea of bringing Cleary back after last year is colossally worrying to me, and I wasn't even one of the one's that worked up about it last year. Look it up; I was pretty neutral about it while the majority of people lost their s***. But the writing is no longer just on the wall, it's evolved into a Cloverfield monster that can speak, and it's hissing and screaming: "HANG THEM UP, DANNY BOY!"

Again, I respect the guy for his loyalty and I can relate to being sentimental, but his judgement just seems too clouded by these traits anymore when it comes to personnel decisions, and I can say that not even accounting for my frustration with his resistance to moving guys we developed like Flip to make room for say, ******* Marian Hossa (!!!), when you have the chance to sign him to a lifetime deal at a great cap hit. But no, we'll stand by our guys, lose some of them to free agency immediately because they're not as loyal to us, then continue to keep hoping for that elusive breakout year from others, and then we won't even move them at the deadline a few years later when it's obvious we're going to lose them to free agency...I'm sorry, that one just still burns so much.

Bottom line, again, I think Holland is an important part of this organization, and I'd like to see him stay a part of it on some level, but I think it's time for someone new to take over the GM role. Holland had a great run, and he probably would've been wise to stick to his "joke" and pass the torch when Lidstrom retired.

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:lol:

Being a history major in college for four years was just a terrible thing for me. We ended up writing 3-4 papers a week, all in the 10-20 page range. When you have to churn out that much writing constantly, you learn to just spew; it's a survival tactic. I finally quit being a history major when I realized I really didn't want to go to law school, but the damage was done. I no longer have a concise bone in my body when it comes to writing, and I have no ******* clue how to get over it!

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Being a history major in college for four years was just a terrible thing for me. We ended up writing 3-4 papers a week, all in the 10-20 page range. When you have to churn out that much writing constantly, you learn to just spew; it's a survival tactic. I finally quit being a history major when I realized I really didn't want to go to law school, but the damage was done. I no longer have a concise bone in my body when it comes to writing, and I have nof****** clue how to get over it!

The funny part is law school would have taught you to write concisely lol

Source: Law grad

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