kliq 3,755 Report post Posted May 9, 2015 Can we instead agree that Kronwall is a very good D-man, and labels don't mean s***? Agreed Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richdg 267 Report post Posted May 10, 2015 I think he's great considering what role he's been forced into since Lidstrom, Rafalski and Stuart left. If he had someone like Seabrook or Stralman he would play elite. Elite players don't need others to make them elite. The truely elite players in every sport make others around them better. That is very much part of the description of being elite. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DickieDunn 2,571 Report post Posted May 10, 2015 I think he's great considering what role he's been forced into since Lidstrom, Rafalski and Stuart left. If he had someone like Seabrook or Stralman he would play elite. Elite players don't need others to make them elite. The truely elite players in every sport make others around them better. That is very much part of the description of being elite. Nobody says he's elite. There's elite, who are Norris candidates, then #1 level guys, who are at the top of the league but not quite elite. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toby91_ca 620 Report post Posted May 10, 2015 I admit that I get caught up in labeling as #1 or not, but my main thinking on this one is this.....I'm not in love with a D group if he is the best on the team. If the other 5 were all really good, not a big deal, but it never works that way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rhah 195 Report post Posted May 10, 2015 I find it hard to believe in this day and age of advanced analytics, there aren't some defensive stats to show some sort of rankings for guys. Even if they have some reliance on pairings there has to be something Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unsaddleddonald 357 Report post Posted May 10, 2015 Kronner does not have a capable slap shot from the point, therefore he is not elite. I'm kind of kidding there, but IMO here are d-men who are better than Kronner. Drew Doughty Duncan Keith Alex Pietrangelo Erik Karlsson Shea Weber Ryan Suter Kris Letang P.K. Subban Keith Yandle Oliver Ekman-Larsson Ryan McDonaugh Mark Giordano Brent Burns Dustin Byfuglien John Carlson Roman Josi Kevin Shattenkirk Denis Wideman That's 18 I'm comfortable with and then you can add Justin Faulk, Victor Hedman, Dougie Hamilton, Jake Muzzin, Aaron Ekblad, Tyson Barrie, and T.J. Brodie to pass him soon. Admittedly my list is offense-heavy, but our blueline produces zero offense. Kronner is never going to be what we wanted him to be. Seriously though, the guy has a pretty weak slap shot. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DickieDunn 2,571 Report post Posted May 10, 2015 Kronner does not have a capable slap shot from the point, therefore he is not elite. I'm kind of kidding there, but IMO here are d-men who are better than Kronner. Drew Doughty Duncan Keith Alex Pietrangelo Erik Karlsson Shea Weber Ryan Suter Kris Letang P.K. Subban Keith Yandle Oliver Ekman-Larsson Ryan McDonaugh Mark Giordano Brent Burns Dustin Byfuglien John Carlson Roman Josi Kevin Shattenkirk Denis Wideman That's 18 I'm comfortable with and then you can add Justin Faulk, Victor Hedman, Dougie Hamilton, Jake Muzzin, Aaron Ekblad, Tyson Barrie, and T.J. Brodie to pass him soon. Admittedly my list is offense-heavy, but our blueline produces zero offense. Kronner is never going to be what we wanted him to be. Seriously though, the guy has a pretty weak slap shot. Some of those guys are not clearly better. They might put up points, but their defense is weaker. Burns in particular, he should be a forward instead of a d-man. 1 DatsyukianDekes reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DatsyukianDekes 2,428 Report post Posted May 10, 2015 Kronner does not have a capable slap shot from the point, therefore he is not elite. I'm kind of kidding there, but IMO here are d-men who are better than Kronner. Drew Doughty Duncan Keith Alex Pietrangelo Erik Karlsson Shea Weber Ryan Suter Kris Letang P.K. Subban Keith Yandle - No Oliver Ekman-Larsson Ryan McDonaugh Mark Giordano Brent Burns - No Dustin Byfuglien - No John Carlson - No Roman Josi Kevin Shattenkirk Denis Wideman - No That's 18 I'm comfortable with and then you can add Justin Faulk, Victor Hedman, Dougie Hamilton, Jake Muzzin, Aaron Ekblad, Tyson Barrie, and T.J. Brodie to pass him soon. Admittedly my list is offense-heavy, but our blueline produces zero offense. Kronner is never going to be what we wanted him to be. Seriously though, the guy has a pretty weak slap shot. Did you forget the defense part of the position? The guys I edited are definitely not all around better then Kronwall and there is a still a couple other questionable ones on there as well. 1 number9 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
barabbas16 499 Report post Posted May 10, 2015 Some of those guys are not clearly better. They might put up points, but their defense is weaker. Burns in particular, he should be a forward instead of a d-man. No, no. Put any scoring forward on defense and they'll be a better defenseman than Kronwall because they will score more points. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unsaddleddonald 357 Report post Posted May 10, 2015 Did you forget the defense part of the position? The guys I edited are definitely not all around better then Kronwall and there is a still a couple other questionable ones on there as well. LOL I'm not wrong about a subjective topic. 1 GMRwings1983 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rhah 195 Report post Posted May 10, 2015 Was trying to find some of the analytics I asked about and its damn hard without doing some serious number crunching around the current statistics and who the players matched against. A few articles were around notably this one that figured out the Top 14 D men in 14-15. Kronwall is 14th. http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=729524 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DatsyukianDekes 2,428 Report post Posted May 10, 2015 LOL I'm not wrong about a subjective topic. Not saying your wrong, it's your opinion. However, if you took a poll, sorry but 6-8 players on your list aren't above Kronner. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richdg 267 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 Kronner does not have a capable slap shot from the point, therefore he is not elite. I'm kind of kidding there, but IMO here are d-men who are better than Kronner. Drew Doughty Duncan Keith Alex Pietrangelo Erik Karlsson Shea Weber Ryan Suter Kris Letang P.K. Subban Keith Yandle Oliver Ekman-Larsson Ryan McDonaugh Mark Giordano Brent Burns Dustin Byfuglien John Carlson Roman Josi Kevin Shattenkirk Denis Wideman That's 18 I'm comfortable with and then you can add Justin Faulk, Victor Hedman, Dougie Hamilton, Jake Muzzin, Aaron Ekblad, Tyson Barrie, and T.J. Brodie to pass him soon. Admittedly my list is offense-heavy, but our blueline produces zero offense. Kronner is never going to be what we wanted him to be. Seriously though, the guy has a pretty weak slap shot. More that you missed: Seabrook, Dekeyser, Hjilmarlsson (spelling), Boychek, Niskenen, Phanueaf, Jones, Markov, and Edler. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,794 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 Not saying your wrong, it's your opinion. However, if you took a poll, sorry but 6-8 players on your list aren't above Kronner. A poll on this forum, maybe. How about a poll of forums around the league? That would be more unbiased. 1 unsaddleddonald reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DatsyukianDekes 2,428 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 A poll on this forum, maybe. How about a poll of forums around the league? That would be more unbiased. I would take that up on any board except for any rivals boards. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richdg 267 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 I find it hard to believe in this day and age of advanced analytics, there aren't some defensive stats to show some sort of rankings for guys. Even if they have some reliance on pairings there has to be something Since you asked: http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/ratings.php?db=201415&sit=5v5&type=individual&teamid=0&pos=defense&minutes=1000&disp=1&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC Follow that link. For the 2014/15 season, of the Dmen that played at least 1000 mins of 5 on 5 hockey, Kronwall is 70th in the NHL. He is 3rd on the RW's behind Dekeyser at 27th and KFQ at 67th. Zidlicky was 99th and Ericsson was 107th. Smith was 113th. Now if you use just the Corsi rankings here is the rankings: KFQ 41st Zidlicky 58th Smith 84th Dekeyser 86th Ericsson 91st Kronwall 117th Using fenwick: KFQ 63rd Zidlicky 66th Dekeyser 70th Smith 89th Ericsson 90th Kronwall 117th Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richdg 267 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 Now to be fair to Kronwall, where he is really good is on the PP. Of all the Dmen that had at least 100 mins of PP time, he was 12th in the league. Dekeyser was 41st, our next best. But Nick had over 230 mins of PP time and DD had barely 100, which does impact the rankings. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richdg 267 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 Just for a reference point, some of the UFA's and trade baits: 5 on 5, over 1000 mins Green is 3rd Franson is 41st Petry is 65th Seabrook 83rd Phanuef 93rd Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DickieDunn 2,571 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 I find it hard to believe in this day and age of advanced analytics, there aren't some defensive stats to show some sort of rankings for guys. Even if they have some reliance on pairings there has to be something Since you asked: http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/ratings.php?db=201415&sit=5v5&type=individual&teamid=0&pos=defense&minutes=1000&disp=1&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC Follow that link. For the 2014/15 season, of the Dmen that played at least 1000 mins of 5 on 5 hockey, Kronwall is 70th in the NHL. He is 3rd on the RW's behind Dekeyser at 27th and KFQ at 67th. Zidlicky was 99th and Ericsson was 107th. Smith was 113th. Now if you use just the Corsi rankings here is the rankings: KFQ 41st Zidlicky 58th Smith 84th Dekeyser 86th Ericsson 91st Kronwall 117th Using fenwick: KFQ 63rd Zidlicky 66th Dekeyser 70th Smith 89th Ericsson 90th Kronwall 117th That's all you need to know about the value of Fenwick and Corsi. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
number9 3,297 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 Since you asked: http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/ratings.php?db=201415&sit=5v5&type=individual&teamid=0&pos=defense&minutes=1000&disp=1&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC Follow that link. For the 2014/15 season, of the Dmen that played at least 1000 mins of 5 on 5 hockey, Kronwall is 70th in the NHL. He is 3rd on the RW's behind Dekeyser at 27th and KFQ at 67th. Zidlicky was 99th and Ericsson was 107th. Smith was 113th. Now if you use just the Corsi rankings here is the rankings: KFQ 41st Zidlicky 58th Smith 84th Dekeyser 86th Ericsson 91st Kronwall 117th Using fenwick: KFQ 63rd Zidlicky 66th Dekeyser 70th Smith 89th Ericsson 90th Kronwall 117th What Corsi/fenwick stat are you looking at exactly? There are many and each paint a different picture. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmyemeryhunter 2,747 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 What Corsi/fenwick stat are you looking at exactly? There are many and each paint a different picture.The ones that prove Kronwall is at best a 3rd pairing defender.Duh. 1 number9 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,794 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 Can we all just agree that he's been underwhelming in the postseason the last few seasons? That's all you need to know about the value of Fenwick and Corsi. Fenwick and Corsi sounds like a defensive pairing actually. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richdg 267 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 The ones that prove Kronwall is at best a 3rd pairing defender. Duh. Nope. I have said he is a second pair guy. Have since Lids retired. Just because he was forced to become a top pair guy, doens't mean he is able to actually do it. Kronwall is a second pair Dman/power play specialist. Which is fine. It is also how he is paid. Now if we all understand that we can then build from it. Now to tie this into another thought. Drafting and developing Dmen. For whatever the reasons, Dmen talk longer to develop in general. Teams only have control of guys for 3 years in the minors before waivers. This makes developing your BL corp internally tough to do. Not impossible. If we go back in our own recent history and look at the period we were a dominate team 95-09, we had older Dmen that were mainly picked up from other teams. Yes we drafted Lids, Vladdy, and Fischer, but Coffey, Rouse, Ramsey, Fetisov, Murphy, Schneider, Rafalski, Hatcher, Krupp, the 2 samuelsson's, Chelios, etc... were all UFA's or trades. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kliq 3,755 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 Nope. I have said he is a second pair guy. Have since Lids retired. Just because he was forced to become a top pair guy, doens't mean he is able to actually do it. Kronwall is a second pair Dman/power play specialist. Which is fine. It is also how he is paid. Now if we all understand that we can then build from it. Now to tie this into another thought. Drafting and developing Dmen. For whatever the reasons, Dmen talk longer to develop in general. Teams only have control of guys for 3 years in the minors before waivers. This makes developing your BL corp internally tough to do. Not impossible. If we go back in our own recent history and look at the period we were a dominate team 95-09, we had older Dmen that were mainly picked up from other teams. Yes we drafted Lids, Vladdy, and Fischer, but Coffey, Rouse, Ramsey, Fetisov, Murphy, Schneider, Rafalski, Hatcher, Krupp, the 2 samuelsson's, Chelios, etc... were all UFA's or trades. Who is the second Samuelsson that played D? We had Ulf for a hiccup. but I dont remember anyone else. I assume you are not talking about Mikael, as he was a forward. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richdg 267 Report post Posted May 11, 2015 Opps. was thinking Sandstrom, but he was a F. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites