Fabbri or Zadina?

[LeftWinger 5,153]

2 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

The Bruins fans I've spoken with basically have no interest in Leddy. According to them he was terrible for the Islanders last year and his stats reflect that that has continued in Detroit.

When it comes to Zadina, I am very eager to get Berggren on this team. IDK how the apologists are going to try to explain away a rookie outperforming Zadina, but they will, and it will be pathetic, and it will be blood in the water for anyone questioning his bad play. 

I guess, but does it really matter who the fans are interested in? If Boston feels Leddy can help, they'll acquire him.

I think Berggren will make the team whether or not Zadina is dealt. We have 3 pending UFA's, what are the chances Yzerman re-signs all of Namestnikov, Gagner and Rowney?

[Scott R Lucidi 675]

30 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

1) You insinuate it 40 times a day. "Sure Zadina has disappointed, but you don't trade him because he's only 22". If you don't trade him when he's young and sucks, and you shouldn't trade him if he's good, then when should you trade him?

2) I'd rather have Vlad Namestnikov fill in the top six in case of injury. At least he can score. And there are about 2 million guys like Vlad Namestnikov floating around the league. How on earth could we ever hope to find such a player? P.S. we got Robby Fabbri for a dude we claimed off waivers. Zadina ain't good, or special.

3) There are two powerplay units. Berggren will start on one of them. Zadina gets powerplay time and he's not on the top unit. It's a pretty simple concept. I'll make a friendly wager with you, assuming Zadina is still on the team I'll bet Berggren scores more than him as early as next season?

4) For the millionth time, I don't expect Zadina to be Raymond. That ship has VERY OBVIOUSLY sailed. But I do expect him to be better than Sam Gagner and Vlad Namestnikov. He isn't. He's decidedly worse. He's not even better than Michael Rasmussen.

1) This is false.  I don't insinuate anything.  I say what i mean and mean what i say.  If you are INFERRING something different than what I say, that's on you.  I've never said we can't or shouldn't trade him.  If the deal is right, I would have no problem with it.  My problem is that some people on here put out trades for him that involve receiving rejects from other teams and not the "24 younger players in the NHL that are younger and scoring more than Zadina" or prospects/draft picks that have a good chance of fitting that scenario in the future.  If you want to talk Zadina for Farrabee, Filip Tomasino, or Seth Jarvis, let's talk.  But I'm going to call you stupid if your trade discussion goes like this:

 

Kip: Zadina sucks.  Trade Zadina for Eric Stahl and a 3rd.

Scott: How does that make us better?

Kip: Zadina sucks, bro.  He's not gonna turn into a good player.  Just like Brendan Smith, you need to realize.  He's never getting better.

 

So to reiterate the point I'm actually making, show me how we're going to get better by trading Zadina or doing something different with him, and I'll listen.  There are good arguments to be made against the Wings management/coaches playing the right players at the current moment, so I think you could actually make some valid points.  But I think past this year, you're going to be SOL with that argument.  I believe you're going to see the top 20 guys in the organization in the lineup each night, provided they are healthy, from the start of next season on.

 

2) Namestnikov and Fabbri will both soon be gone.  They are rentals/stop gaps filling in until younger players are ready.  AGAIN, not saying Zadina is one of the younger players that is ready.  Only saying that we don't need to play guys that aren't part of our future.  That doesn't help us AT ALL.

 

3) You're on.  $10.00 for fun.  You can hold onto the money if you send me your paypal.  I've been welched on twice now on LGW (Number9/CRL/BlueAdams cough cough cough).

 

4) Fair enough on the first part.  Not true on the 2nd part.  Zadina is better than you want to give him credit for.  He's just not in the role he's been in his whole life (scoring winger on the top line), so you have to get used to accepting non-scoring winger out of him.  I'll give you that he's not very good at non-scoring winger compared to the guys we've had in the past (Maltby, Brown, McCarty, etc.).  But this is a different league today and we're a different talent level team.  You know that.  I think all of your frustration is just stemming from you wanting us to be better faster.  That's completely understandable.  I'd like to see that too.

 

[bIueadams 776]

13 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

I guess, but does it really matter who the fans are interested in? If Boston feels Leddy can help, they'll acquire him.

I think Berggren will make the team whether or not Zadina is dealt. We have 3 pending UFA's, what are the chances Yzerman re-signs all of Namestnikov, Gagner and Rowney?

It points out that the perception of Leddy outside of Detroit is not good. If Boston fans recognized that Leddy hit a wall last year, you better believe the Boston org saw that too.

SY (and we) got swindled in that trade. Leddy hasn't even come close to hitting expectations. His almost valueless even at half price. If DK is untradeable them so is Leddy. 

[LeftWinger 5,153]

8 minutes ago, Scott R Lucidi said:

Namestnikov and Fabbri will both soon be gone.

I think Namestnikov will re-sign here for as many times as Yzerman wants...plus Fabbri already sign a 3 year extension. Fabbri is part of this rebuild and will be on our next Cup winning team.

[Scott R Lucidi 675]

4 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

I think Namestnikov will re-sign here for as many times as Yzerman wants...plus Fabbri already sign a 3 year extension. Fabbri is part of this rebuild and will be on our next Cup winning team.

Names: Agreed, but I think that Yzerman wants time frame is end of current contract.

Fabrri: I wouldn't count on this.  Guy is GLASS JOE.  

7 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

It points out that the perception of Leddy outside of Detroit is not good. If Boston fans recognized that Leddy hit a wall last year, you better believe the Boston org saw that too.

SY (and we) got swindled in that trade. Leddy hasn't even come close to hitting expectations. His almost valueless even at half price. If DK is untradeable them so is Leddy. 

Agree with this.  I still think Leddy will be traded at the deadline.  I just think the return is going to be poor - prospect we've never heard of and a 3rd.

[kipwinger 8,771]

6 minutes ago, Scott R Lucidi said:

1) This is false.  I don't insinuate anything.  I say what i mean and mean what i say.  If you are INFERRING something different than what I say, that's on you.  I've never said we can't or shouldn't trade him.  If the deal is right, I would have no problem with it.  My problem is that some people on here put out trades for him that involve receiving rejects from other teams and not the "24 younger players in the NHL that are younger and scoring more than Zadina" or prospects/draft picks that have a good chance of fitting that scenario in the future.  If you want to talk Zadina for Farrabee, Filip Tomasino, or Seth Jarvis, let's talk.  But I'm going to call you stupid if your trade discussion goes like this:

 

Kip: Zadina sucks.  Trade Zadina for Eric Stahl and a 3rd.

Scott: How does that make us better?

Kip: Zadina sucks, bro.  He's not gonna turn into a good player.  Just like Brendan Smith, you need to realize.  He's never getting better.

 

So to reiterate the point I'm actually making, show me how we're going to get better by trading Zadina or doing something different with him, and I'll listen.  There are good arguments to be made against the Wings management/coaches playing the right players at the current moment, so I think you could actually make some valid points.  But I think past this year, you're going to be SOL with that argument.  I believe you're going to see the top 20 guys in the organization in the lineup each night, provided they are healthy, from the start of next season on.

 

2) Namestnikov and Fabbri will both soon be gone.  They are rentals/stop gaps filling in until younger players are ready.  AGAIN, not saying Zadina is one of the younger players that is ready.  Only saying that we don't need to play guys that aren't part of our future.  That doesn't help us AT ALL.

 

3) You're on.  $10.00 for fun.  You can hold onto the money if you send me your paypal.  I've been welched on twice now on LGW (Number9/CRL/BlueAdams cough cough cough).

 

4) Fair enough on the first part.  Not true on the 2nd part.  Zadina is better than you want to give him credit for.  He's just not in the role he's been in his whole life (scoring winger on the top line), so you have to get used to accepting non-scoring winger out of him.  I'll give you that he's not very good at non-scoring winger compared to the guys we've had in the past (Maltby, Brown, McCarty, etc.).  But this is a different league today and we're a different talent level team.  You know that.  I think all of your frustration is just stemming from you wanting us to be better faster.  That's completely understandable.  I'd like to see that too.

 

I've already proposed Zadina + Leddy + 3rd for Holloway and Kassian elsewhere. So lets not pretend like I've said we should trade Zadina for Eric Staal.

Secondly, you're rewriting history to advance a false narrative. Zadina has almost never been asked to be anything other than what he is. He has been in a top six scoring role for MOST of the season (and his NHL career so far), and has been given tons of powerplay time. He's played WAY more games with Larkin/Raymond/Bert/Fabbri/Suter than he has with guys like Rasmussen. Nobody is asking him to be something he wasn't in juniors. Coincidentally, that's EXACTLY what they've asked Michael Rasmussen to do (in juniors he was a top line wing/center) and he's STILL scoring more than Zadina. But this is also circular logic. Zadina apologists all say "well sure he doesn't score, but he's good at everything else". But heaven forbid Blashill take him off a scoring line and put him on a checking line to use the skills he supposed does have.

"Sure Zadina never scores, but if you take him off a scoring line he's never going to score", and round and round we go.

[LeftWinger 5,153]

7 minutes ago, Scott R Lucidi said:

Names: Agreed, but I think that Yzerman wants time frame is end of current contract.

Fabrri: I wouldn't count on this.  Guy is GLASS JOE.  

Agree with this.  I still think Leddy will be traded at the deadline.  I just think the return is going to be poor - prospect we've never heard of and a 3rd.

Yet Fabbri is 4th on the team in goals scored with 14 and 6th in total scoring. He may end up trade bait before his (new) contract expires, but I think he fits in with the direction the team is headed. I guess this is a "we'll see" situation.

[Scott R Lucidi 675]

2 hours ago, kipwinger said:

I've already proposed Zadina + Leddy + 3rd for Holloway and Kassian elsewhere. So lets not pretend like I've said we should trade Zadina for Eric Staal.

Secondly, you're rewriting history to advance a false narrative. Zadina has almost never been asked to be anything other than what he is. He has been in a top six scoring role for MOST of the season (and his NHL career so far), and has been given tons of powerplay time. He's played WAY more games with Larkin/Raymond/Bert/Fabbri/Suter than he has with guys like Rasmussen. Nobody is asking him to be something he wasn't in juniors. Coincidentally, that's EXACTLY what they've asked Michael Rasmussen to do (in juniors he was a top line wing/center) and he's STILL scoring more than Zadina. But this is also circular logic. Zadina apologists all say "well sure he doesn't score, but he's good at everything else". But heaven forbid Blashill take him off a scoring line and put him on a checking line to use the skills he supposed does have.

"Sure Zadina never scores, but if you take him off a scoring line he's never going to score", and round and round we go.

I'm not a Zadina apologist.  I just give our prospects the benefit of the doubt is all.  I just don't see how swapping Zadina for Holloway helps us.  Getting rid of Leddy helps us.  That's for sure.

2 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Yet Fabbri is 4th on the team in goals scored with 14 and 6th in total scoring. He may end up trade bait before his (new) contract expires, but I think he fits in with the direction the team is headed. I guess this is a "we'll see" situation.

I want him to succeed.  I just think he'll get injured and be done.  He doesn't seem super durable so far.

[bIueadams 776]

Sens fans seem to realistically think a Brannstrom for Zadina deal is being explored.

Brannstrom had great stats for a 21 year old Dman last year, but seems to be taking a step backwards this year both in the NHL and AHL. He doesn't seem to fit the mold of an Yzerman Dman either. Mobile, but small. He is Swedish though at least, I guess that's a plus.

I think it's at least worth considering. If we are done with Zadina I don't know that we will get an offer like this in the future. And we have serious incoming needs for LHD.

To DET: Erik Brannstrom + Shane Pinto
To OTT: Filip Zadina

Zadorov - Seider
Oesterle - Hronek
Brannstrom - Lindstrom
Edvinsson

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

If Kyle Quincey can get a 1st, then Nick Leddy can get a 2nd.

[bIueadams 776]

Can someone please go check nyqvististhefuture/jesperwillbeawing's, or whatever he's calling himself now, twitter? He was obsessed with Brannstrom and always livid we didn't draft him

1 minute ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

If Kyle Quincey can get a 1st, then Nick Leddy can get a 2nd.

Only if Leddy is going to Edmonton

[bIueadams 776]

Quincey on a bad Colorado team the year we acquired him: 23 pts in 53 games, -1, 26 years old, caphit: $3.125

Leddy on a bad Detroit team the year we are selling him: 12 pts in 49 games, -27, 31 years old, caphit: $5

One of these things is not like the other.

Edited March 4, 2022 by bIueadams

[kipwinger 8,771]

1 hour ago, Scott R Lucidi said:

I'm not a Zadina apologist.  I just give our prospects the benefit of the doubt is all.  I just don't see how swapping Zadina for Holloway helps us.  Getting rid of Leddy helps us.  That's for sure.

I want him to succeed.  I just think he'll get injured and be done.  He doesn't seem super durable so far.

Holloway is a center. Our center depth after Larkin blows. Conversely, our depth at left shooting, top six, scoring winger is pretty deep with Bert, Vrana, and Fabbri all ahead of Zadina. You'd be giving up your fourth best left wing for your future 2C. And you still have Berggren, Sodorblom, and (maybe) Mastrosimone as future LW options. Zadina is not an obviously better option than any of those guys (except maybe Mastro). Meanwhile, Holloway is substantially better than every center we have in our prospect pool, and better than probably half the centers on our team. He put up Larkin like numbers in his draft plus one year in the NCAA and is currently eating up the AHL despite missing a huge chunk of time with a serious injury. He's really good. So that's how he helps.

 

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

11 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Holloway is a center. Our center depth after Larkin blows. Conversely, our depth at left shooting, top six, scoring winger is pretty deep with Bert, Vrana, and Fabbri all ahead of Zadina. You'd be giving up your fourth best left wing for your future 2C. And you still have Berggren, Sodorblom, and (maybe) Mastrosimone as future LW options. Zadina is not an obviously better option than any of those guys (except maybe Mastro). Meanwhile, Holloway is substantially better than every center we have in our prospect pool, and better than probably half the centers on our team. He put up Larkin like numbers in his draft plus one year in the NCAA and is currently eating up the AHL despite missing a huge chunk of time with a serious injury. He's really good. So that's how he helps.

 

Sounds like Edm should hang onto him

[kipwinger 8,771]

2 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Sounds like Edm should hang onto him

They've got 3 centers who are better (McDavid, Draisaitl, RNH) and they're trying to win now. If you believe in Zadina (and Holland did enough to draft him) then it's hard not to imagine him helping you now more than a 20 year old Holloway would. In the scenario I advocated Holland would also be getting pretty significant cap relief, which is going to be huge for him because if Edmonton falls flat he's going to have to do some major retooling in the offseason.

 

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

They've got 3 centers who are better (McDavid, Draisaitl, RNH) and they're trying to win now. If you believe in Zadina (and Holland did enough to draft him) then it's hard not to imagine him helping you now more than a 20 year old Holloway would. In the scenario I advocated Holland would also be getting pretty significant cap relief, which is going to be huge for him because if Edmonton falls flat he's going to have to do some major retooling in the offseason.

 

Ok, Im on board if you feel good about Holloway.

[kipwinger 8,771]

1 minute ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Ok, Im on board if you feel good about Holloway.

What's not to like about a center that's as big and fast as Ryan Kesler and scores like Larkin?

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

1 hour ago, bIueadams said:

Quincey on a bad Colorado team the year we acquired him: 23 pts in 53 games, -1, 26 years old, caphit: $3.125

Leddy on a bad Detroit team the year we are selling him: 12 pts in 49 games, -27, 31 years old, caphit: $5

One of these things is not like the other.

Correct. One GM overpaid with a first. Another will overpay with a 2nd.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

9 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

What's not to like about a center that's as big and fast as Ryan Kesler and scores like Larkin?

Im sold.  get it done!

[bIueadams 776]

10 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Correct. One GM overpaid with a first. Another will overpay with a 2nd.

We shall see. I'm not even positive Leddy moves. We might finish the season with him. He's that bad.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

5 hours ago, kipwinger said:

I'll make a friendly wager with you, assuming Zadina is still on the team I'll bet Berggren scores more than him as early as next season?

I hope this happens. It means the team has 4 solid top 6 wingers in Raymond, Bertuzzi, Vrana, and Berggren. It means the team has Fabbri, Rasmussen, and Veleno already in the bottom 6 and Neiderbach and Soderblom not far behind. The team would no longer need Zadina to improve, and wouldn't miss him even if he did so on another team. Trading him would be almost necessary at that point.

[bIueadams 776]

1 minute ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I hope this happens. It means the team has 4 solid top 6 wingers in Raymond, Bertuzzi, Vrana, and Berggren. It means the team has Fabbri, Rasmussen, and Veleno already in the bottom 6 and Neiderbach and Soderblom not far behind. The team would no longer need Zadina to improve, and wouldn't miss him even if he did so on another team. Trading him would be almost necessary at that point.

Exactly why he should be fodder in acquiring a LHD. I am OCD level concerned about the LHD. Chychrun, Valimaki, Brannstrom. Use Zadina to get one. We don't have bad forwards at this point, especially with Soder and Berg coming in. Zadina is unnecessary. Bounce this clown.

[kipwinger 8,771]

8 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I hope this happens. It means the team has 4 solid top 6 wingers in Raymond, Bertuzzi, Vrana, and Berggren. It means the team has Fabbri, Rasmussen, and Veleno already in the bottom 6 and Neiderbach and Soderblom not far behind. The team would no longer need Zadina to improve, and wouldn't miss him even if he did so on another team. Trading him would be almost necessary at that point.

I almost salivate thinking about Berggren skating and passing to someone like Vrana. He's that good. The only reason he's not leading the AHL in scoring right now is because Grand Rapids has zero offensively capable forwards outside of him.

Niederbach is an interesting case. He's young for his draft class, and he's super underdeveloped. I think he's got another year in Sweden and then probably a year in GR (same developemental path as Berggren). I'm not as confident in Niederbach, but it's hard to say what he'll look like if he ever hits puberty. He's a high level thinker though. Check out this goal where he passes to himself off the end board and splits two d-men.

 

[bIueadams 776]

5 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I almost salivate thinking about Berggren skating and passing to someone like Vrana. He's that good. The only reason he's not leading the AHL in scoring right now is because Grand Rapids has zero offensively capable forwards outside of him.

Niederbach is an interesting case. He's young for his draft class, and he's super underdeveloped. I think he's got another year in Sweden and then probably a year in GR (same developemental path as Berggren). I'm not as confident in Niederbach, but it's hard to say what he'll look like if he ever hits puberty. He's a high level thinker though. Check out this goal where he passes to himself off the end board and splits two d-men.

 

I'm not as confident in Berggren as some. I do have concerns about his soft perimeter style play.

[kipwinger 8,771]

2 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

I'm not as confident in Berggren as some. I do have concerns about his soft perimeter style play.

Hasn't really been an issue this year. I mean, he's never gonna be Tyler Bertuzzi (we have Mazur for that) but I'd say he's just as willing to go to the hard areas as guys like Vrana or Raymond. But he's going to score most of his points on assists anyway. His passing is elite.