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kliq

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25 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Veleno plays penalty kill precisely because he is not good defensively. Cleary and Horcoff have both said as much. That this is player who's leaned on his tremendous scoring in previous leagues and hasn't had to develop his defensive game as much. The Red Wings need this to be a C who they can throw out against any other teams top line, and so they are trying to cultivate that in him.

Is that also why he's out to defend leads late in games? And was on Canada's penalty kill at the WJC?

Veleno was never expected to play defense up until his final season of junior, and now his first season of pro. He's taken huge strides in that area of his game. I'm sure management want him to "continue" working on his defensive game, but it's far from "abysmal", despite his terrible +/-.

33 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I suspect this is also the reason he's playing 2C. Turgeon is playing a much better defensive game and is scoring at pretty much the same rate as Veleno, but he's stuck at 3C. Why? Cause Turgeon is probably never gonna be a piece that makes the Red Wings, and in the longshot he does it will be in a very minimal role. Even Pearson is scoring at almost the clip as Veleno at 4C. But this is a development league and the Wings are trying to develop Veleno over Turegon and Pearson. I wholly agree with that approach... but that does not at all mean Veleno is having some tremendous season. He's not.

I've never said anything to indicate that I think Veleno is having a "tremendous" season. He's not. His season thus far has been average at best. You know who else had an average (or very, very disappointing) rookie season with the Griffins? Mantha. A lot of people were really down on him too.

37 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

No one's calling a Veleno a bust. But I am saying he was more well-rounded and ahead of Veleno at the same age. Just as he's the better player this year.

I agree that Rasmussen was ahead of Veleno at the same age, and is still today. I've never disputed that. I just think Veleno has a higher upside. Whether or not he ever reaches his full potential is yet to be seen.

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2 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Is that also why he's out to defend leads late in games? And was on Canada's penalty kill at the WJC?

He's 2nd line C. Of course his line is out late in games. Duh.

WJC - A tournament for juniors - Not developed AHL players. Seider was playing like 30 min a game in that tournament. He's not doing that in the AHL, as he shouldn't.

5 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Veleno was never expected to play defense up until his final season of junior, and now his first season of pro. He's taken huge strides in that area of his game. I'm sure management want him to "continue" working on his defensive game, but it's far from "abysmal", despite his terrible +/-.

Precisely why he's not great at it. I'm sure he's growing and making progress, but I'm not going to pretend this is some defensive stalwart out there. He's in over his head and learning by trail by fire right now.

10 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I've never said anything to indicate that I think Veleno is having a "tremendous" season. He's not. His season thus far has been average at best. You know who else had an average (or very, very disappointing) rookie season with the Griffins? Mantha. A lot of people were really down on him too.

I agree that Rasmussen was ahead of Veleno at the same age, and is still today. I've never disputed that. I just think Veleno has a higher upside. Whether or not he ever reaches his full potential is yet to be seen.

There's every reason to think Ras has higher upside. Drafted 21 picks higher in the first round. Entered the league more complete and well rounded. Better track record of success so far.

I'd like to see some argument/evidence that doesn't just hinge on "well I watch the games, and no else, and I think he's better"

I remember Rasmussen's draft like it was yesterday. Everyone salty that we didn't take Vilardi. Everyone passing around BS speculation that he's only a 3rd line PP specialist, as if the Wings would draft for that that high. You going on and on about he's not actually a C despite nothing to back that up. You're still carrying that bias despite the mounting evidence in front of you.

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10 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

He's 2nd line C. Of course his line is out late in games. Duh.

WJC - A tournament for juniors - Not developed AHL players. Seider was playing like 30 min a game in that tournament. He's not doing that in the AHL, as he shouldn't.

Exactly. A tournament in which the coaches wanted to win, not develop certain skills, and yet he was chosen to kill penalties. Why? Because he's terrible defensively? Sure...

12 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Precisely why he's not great at it. I'm sure he's growing and making progress, but I'm not going to pretend this is some defensive stalwart out there. He's in over his head and learning by trail by fire right now.

Again, I didn't say he was "great at it". Why do you insist on trying to put words in my mouth? Veleno hasn't been "abysmal" defensively. That's my argument. That's it. I'm not saying he's a future Selke winner. Nor am I saying he's having an amazing season. Quit trying to make an argument out of nothing.

19 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I remember Rasmussen's draft like it was yesterday. Everyone salty that we didn't take Vilardi. Everyone passing around BS speculation that he's only a 3rd line PP specialist, as if the Wings would draft for that that high. You going on and on about he's not actually a C despite nothing to back that up. You're still carrying that bias despite the mounting evidence in front of you.

I never said "he's not actually a center". I just thought, like a lot of people, that he might better suited on the wing. He's looked good in GR at center though, so we'll see. I have no bias against Rasmussen at all. Never have since we drafted him.

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1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

Exactly. A tournament in which the coaches wanted to win, not develop certain skills, and yet he was chosen to kill penalties. Why? Because he's terrible defensively? Sure...

Sure among his junior peers his defensive skills looked good, I agree. I'm sure if we sent him back to junior he could PK and all that too.

The AHL is not a junior tournament. It's a pro league full of developed borderline big club players. And he certainly is in over his head with them. But it's good learning for him. He's still trying to figure out to defend at pro level.

7 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Again, I didn't say he was "great at it". Why do you insist on trying to put words in my mouth? Veleno hasn't been "abysmal" defensively. That's my argument. That's it. I'm not saying he's a future Selke winner. Nor am I saying he's having an amazing season. Quit trying to make an argument out of nothing.

I never said "he's not actually a center". I just thought, like a lot of people, that he might better suited on the wing. He's looked good in GR at center though, so we'll see. I have no bias against Rasmussen at all. Never have since we drafted him.

You've been up and down two threads now rabidly defending your boy because "he plays the PK this" and "defends leads that". And now we're agreeing he's not all that great? How about if I use the term "below average". Would that assuage you?

Then you obviously have a Brendan Smith level opinion of Veleno. Even though play-wise and pedigree wise there's every reason to believe Rasmussen has a higher ceiling and better track record of success.

 

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40 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Sure among his junior peers his defensive skills looked good, I agree. I'm sure if we sent him back to junior he could PK and all that too.

The AHL is not a junior tournament. It's a pro league full of developed borderline big club players. And he certainly is in over his head with them. But it's good learning for him. He's still trying to figure out to defend at pro level.

You've been up and down two threads now rabidly defending your boy because "he plays the PK this" and "defends leads that". And now we're agreeing he's not all that great? How about if I use the term "below average". Would that assuage you?

Then you obviously have a Brendan Smith level opinion of Veleno. Even though play-wise and pedigree wise there's every reason to believe Rasmussen has a higher ceiling and better track record of success.

Yup, he's bad defensively.

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7 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

True or false? Rasmussen is better than Veleno. True or false?

Right now? I'd say true. I think Ras will be a solid 2nd or 3rd line winger If everything goes right, I get the impression he has JVR upside.

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19 hours ago, kipwinger said:

The short answer?  No.  Veleno is abysmal defensively at the AHL level and needs to round out that part of his game.  He's getting TORCHED at 5on5.  Plus his offense is only middling.  About half of his 7 goals are either junk goals or else situations where someone else did the heavy lifting and Veleno simply finished off the play.  Offensively he's no better than fellow AHL rookie Chase Pearson, who's scoring about as much in significantly fewer minutes. 

Based on the first half of the season, I'd agree with this. But the kid has been steadily improving since the WJC. My guess is he finishes the season strong and starts off in the AHL again next season. That is when he'll make the case to be called up and start in Detroit on the wing, similar to Larkin. 

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2 hours ago, marcaractac said:

Based on the first half of the season, I'd agree with this. But the kid has been steadily improving since the WJC. My guess is he finishes the season strong and starts off in the AHL again next season. That is when he'll make the case to be called up and start in Detroit on the wing, similar to Larkin. 

Sounds like you're agreeing with everything I said, because my only point was that he's not ready to play in the NHL because he has deficiencies in his game.  So we're on the same page. 

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41 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Sounds like you're agreeing with everything I said, because my only point was that he's not ready to play in the NHL because he has deficiencies in his game.  So we're on the same page. 

"Deficiencies in his game" and "abysmal defensively" are two completely different things. He definitely has deficiencies in his game, like most young, first year pros. He's far from "abysmal" defensively.

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47 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Sounds like you're agreeing with everything I said, because my only point was that he's not ready to play in the NHL because he has deficiencies in his game.  So we're on the same page. 

I mean, sure, but I just wanted to put it out there that he has shown steady improvement. NHL ready? No. But nothing about his progress this year says he won't be at some point. Your explanation as to why he isn't NHL ready certainly explains his performance earlier in the season, but is very much incorrect based on the last month or so. At this point, I'd argue that his main deficiency is consistency.  

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2 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

I mean, sure, but I just wanted to put it out there that he has shown steady improvement. NHL ready? No. But nothing about his progress this year says he won't be at some point. Your explanation as to why he isn't NHL ready certainly explains his performance earlier in the season, but is very much incorrect based on the last month or so. At this point, I'd argue that his main deficiency is consistency.  

That was never the question.  The original question asked was "Do you think he's ready for the NHL".  And I said no, he's not. 

On 2/13/2020 at 11:37 AM, kliq said:

I don’t watch any GR games, but I do follow them. Is Veleno ready for that spot?

 

Meaning the 2C spot on the Red Wings.  That's what I was responding too.  Nobody said he wasn't going to make the NHL someday.  I said he's not good enough to do so without being a liability right now because he's got a lot of growing to do.

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22 hours ago, kipwinger said:

The short answer?  No.  Veleno is abysmal defensively at the AHL level and needs to round out that part of his game.  He's getting TORCHED at 5on5.  Plus his offense is only middling.  About half of his 7 goals are either junk goals or else situations where someone else did the heavy lifting and Veleno simply finished off the play.  Offensively he's no better than fellow AHL rookie Chase Pearson, who's scoring about as much in significantly fewer minutes. 

 

2 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

That was never the question.  The original question asked was "Do you think he's ready for the NHL".  And I said no, he's not. 

You also said allllll that extra stuff in the bold. That is the part I was following up on. Particularly with the upsized word. The initial question has nothing to do with it when you add a bunch of analysis that is no longer applicable to his current level of play. 

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Just now, marcaractac said:

 

You also said allllll that extra stuff in the bold. That is the part I was following up on. Particularly with the upsized word. The initial question has nothing to do with it when you add a bunch of analysis that is no longer applicable to his current level of play. 

Why is it no longer applicable?  He still isn't producing much offensively, and he still gets scored on more than anyone else in GR.  I agree he's probably better than he was at the beginning of the season, but he's still not good enough to be a 2C in the NHL because he doesn't produce enough offense and he gets scored on a lot.  I stand by it.  It's still a valid assessment of his game, even if it's marginally less true than it was a few months ago.

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2 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Why is it no longer applicable?  He still isn't producing much offensively, and he still gets scored on more than anyone else in GR.  I agree he's probably better than he was at the beginning of the season, but he's still not good enough to be a 2C in the NHL because he doesn't produce enough offense and he gets scored on a lot.  I stand by it.  It's still a valid assessment of his game, even if it's marginally less true than it was a few months ago.

The original question had nothing to do with the portion of your post I was mainly replying to. I was responding to your assessment of his AHL performance, which is only correct if all you have done was look at stats. 

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15 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

The original question had nothing to do with the portion of your post I was mainly replying to. I was responding to your assessment of his AHL performance, which is only correct if all you have done was look at stats. 

This is the same sh*t that KRsmith says.  It's starting to get old.  I watch as many games as I can watch, and I check the box scores on the games I miss. Sue me. 

My assessment from that observation is that Veleno isn't scoring enough at the AHL level to justify a promotion to a top 9 role in the NHL.  And I'm not seeing some top defender either. He's been moved to a scoring line, with two scoring wingers (Terry and Svech). He's not being utilized as a matchup guy (a la Glendening).  H's not taking defensive zone draws. Turgeon and Pearson are doing those things. Veleno WAS on a checking line, and they moved him away from that defensive responsibility when they swapped him with Turgeon (who was the 2C).  He is on the PK, which is a credit to him, but so was AA when he played in GR so I'd take it with a grain of salt.  AND he still gets scored on a lot against AHL caliber scoring lines. 

So I'm not sure what you two are watching.  If he's produced a bunch more points, or started shutting down opposition scoring lines, and I just missed it somehow then I'm happy for you (or KRsmith) to prove me wrong with something other than "we watch more games than you".  But it sure doesn't seem like he's ready for a promotion to the NHL based on his play up to this point. 

Edited by kipwinger

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9 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

The original question had nothing to do with the portion of your post I was mainly replying to. I was responding to your assessment of his AHL performance, which is only correct if all you have done was look at stats. 

Which is all he did... Of course he's bad defensively. He has a team worst +/-...

Fact is, his defensive game has grown leaps and bounds since the beginning of the season. Like Larkin, the organization want him to concentrate on that part of his game, and he's starting to mold into more of a 200 foot center because of it.

He's not ready yet, and likely won't make the team out of camp. But by this time next year (when we trade Filppula at the deadline), I fully expect him to be up full time. 

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1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

This is the same sh*t that KRsmith says.  It's starting to get old.  I watch as many games as I can watch, and I check the box scores on the games I miss. Sue me. 

My assessment from that observation is that Veleno isn't scoring enough at the AHL level to justify a promotion to a top 9 role in the NHL.  And I'm not seeing some top defender either. He's on a scoring line, with two scoring wingers (at that level). He's not being utilized as a matchup guy (a la Glendening).  H's not taking defensive zone draws. Turgeon and Pearson are doing those things. He is on the PK, which is a credit to him, but so was AA when he played in GR so I'd take it with a grain of salt.  AND he still gets scored on a lot against AHL caliber scoring lines. 

So I'm not sure what you two are watching.  If he's produced a bunch more points, or started shutting down opposition scoring lines, and I just missed it somehow then I'm happy for you (or KRsmith) to prove me wrong with something other than "we watch more games than you".  But it sure doesn't seem like he's ready for a promotion to the NHL based on his play up to this point. 

No one is arguing whether or not Veleno is ready to make the jump right now. He's clearly not. What I'm arguing is you saying he's "abysmal defensively". He's not. And to me, the only way that you'd come up with such a conclusion is if you didn't watch games, and just looked at box scores / stats, and seen his "abysmal" +/-... Maybe you do watch the games, but if you do, you're watching a different game than me, and many others.

Kaser was just raving a few games ago about Veleno's two way game. I know that they can be homers, like any announcer, but he specifically talked about his defensive game.

Anyway, I'm done with this. Veleno isn't ready, his defensive game is far from perfect, but he is developing a well rounded game.

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12 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Which is all he did... Of course he's bad defensively. He has a team worst +/-...

Fact is, his defensive game has grown leaps and bounds since the beginning of the season. Like Larkin, the organization want him to concentrate on that part of his game, and he's starting to mold into more of a 200 foot center because of it.

He's not ready yet, and likely won't make the team out of camp. But by this time next year (when we trade Filppula at the deadline), I fully expect him to be up full time. 

He was moved out of a defensive role when he was swapped with Turgeon.  And they did that because he was totally overmatched.  If he looks better now, it's only because he's being asked to do less defending. Just like Detroit, GR uses their checking line player in defensive roles and their top six players in offensive ones. 

GR posts their lines before every game.  Go look.  Over the course of the season Veleno was moved off the defensive line and put on an offensive one with two offensive players in Terry and Svech.

Edit:  For the record, I've never mentioned plus/minus at all.  You can't seem to shut up about it however.

 

Edited by kipwinger

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3 hours ago, marcaractac said:

Based on the first half of the season, I'd agree with this. But the kid has been steadily improving since the WJC. My guess is he finishes the season strong and starts off in the AHL again next season. That is when he'll make the case to be called up and start in Detroit on the wing, similar to Larkin. 

The kid has definitely gotten better since the beginning of the season without a doubt. Especially defensively. Hence why I agree with Ben Simon casting him into the ocean to sink or swim on special teams and the 2nd line.

However realistically he's still probably only an AHL 3C at this point. Still impressive in it's own right for a 19 year old.

I'd say he needs a full season as 1C in GR next year. There's absolutely no reason to rush this kid developmentally. His game was nowhere as complete as Ras's when he turned pro.

 

Edited by ChristopherReevesLegs

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1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

This is the same sh*t that KRsmith says.  It's starting to get old.  I watch as many games as I can watch, and I check the box scores on the games I miss. Sue me. 

My assessment from that observation is that Veleno isn't scoring enough at the AHL level to justify a promotion to a top 9 role in the NHL.  And I'm not seeing some top defender either. He's been moved to a scoring line, with two scoring wingers (Terry and Svech). He's not being utilized as a matchup guy (a la Glendening).  H's not taking defensive zone draws. Turgeon and Pearson are doing those things. Veleno WAS on a checking line, and they moved him away from that defensive responsibility when they swapped him with Turgeon (who was the 2C).  He is on the PK, which is a credit to him, but so was AA when he played in GR so I'd take it with a grain of salt.  AND he still gets scored on a lot against AHL caliber scoring lines. 

So I'm not sure what you two are watching.  If he's produced a bunch more points, or started shutting down opposition scoring lines, and I just missed it somehow then I'm happy for you (or KRsmith) to prove me wrong with something other than "we watch more games than you".  But it sure doesn't seem like he's ready for a promotion to the NHL based on his play up to this point. 

I'm not saying he is playing well enough for promotion to a top 9 NHL role. I'm saying he is playing far better now than he did early in the season, and that if you don't think that's the case, it's because you haven't been watching. You keep twisting what I say as if I'm saying he is NHL ready when I clearly stated he isn't. So perhaps read my entire posts instead of spot picking certain lines that go along with this argument you are basically having with yourself at this point. 

Literally nobody is saying Veleno is NHL ready, yet you are arguing as if everyone is saying he is.  

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

The kid has definitely gotten better since the beginning of the season without a doubt. Especially defensively. Hence why I agree with Ben Simon casting him into the ocean to sink or swim on special teams and the 2nd line.

However realistically he's still probably only an AHL 3C at this point. Still impressive in it's own right for a 19 year old.

I'd say he needs a full season as 1C in GR next year. There's absolutely no reason to rush this kid developmentally. His game was nowhere as complete as Ras's when he turned pro.

 

100% this. I fully expect him to continue to improve this season in the AHL. MAYBE he gets a 9 game look to end this season. If he does, it's not because he is ready. Perhaps management wants to give him a taste. Learn a couple things to take back to the AHL with him.

My guess is he finishes this season strong, then next season becomes the go to center on the team, whether it be right away or after a couple months. Once he proves he is too good for the AHL, he'll be up. If that happens late next season when guys get shipped at the deadline, that would be grand. 

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1 hour ago, marcaractac said:

I'm not saying he is playing well enough for promotion to a top 9 NHL role. I'm saying he is playing far better now than he did early in the season, and that if you don't think that's the case, it's because you haven't been watching. You keep twisting what I say as if I'm saying he is NHL ready when I clearly stated he isn't. So perhaps read my entire posts instead of spot picking certain lines that go along with this argument you are basically having with yourself at this point. 

Literally nobody is saying Veleno is NHL ready, yet you are arguing as if everyone is saying he is.  

 

Am I eating crazy pills?  I responded to someone who definitely did ask if Veleno was NHL ready.  Then you responded to my criticisms of his game, saying that he was better than he was earlier in the season. That's how we got here.  I never addressed you once until you responded to my discussion with someone else and immediately changed the narrative to something different. 

Whether or not Veleno has improved over the course of the season is irrelevant to the discussion I was having.  He's not good enough, offensively or defensively, to be in the NHL as of today.  That's what was being discussed before you parachuted into the middle of things.

It's not like I sought you out to talk about Veleno's improvement and then changed the topic to whether he's NHL ready.  In fact it's the exact opposite.  You jumped into a discussion about whether he's NHL ready and then changed the topic to his improvement. 

Edited by kipwinger

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1 hour ago, marcaractac said:

100% this. I fully expect him to continue to improve this season in the AHL. MAYBE he gets a 9 game look to end this season. If he does, it's not because he is ready. Perhaps management wants to give him a taste. Learn a couple things to take back to the AHL with him.

My guess is he finishes this season strong, then next season becomes the go to center on the team, whether it be right away or after a couple months. Once he proves he is too good for the AHL, he'll be up. If that happens late next season when guys get shipped at the deadline, that would be grand. 

I am glad that you agree, but I don't think he is ready or deserving of an NHL taste this season.

Smith, Rasmussen, Svechnikov, Hirose, Turgeon, and even Kuffner are more ready IMO

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