2020 Offseason

[krsmith17 7,191]

57 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Cause his play

Okay we've at least got our foot in the door now. What play is that? Describe it. Why do you like it?

Because it's real gud. He's real gud. He has the potential to be great.

He's smart, has a lethal shot, underrated passing, plays both sides of the puck. He just put up over *half* a point per game in his rookie season, as a 20 year old. If he tops out as a 40 point winger, it will be a huge disappointment, but still wouldn't be labeled a bust by anyone in the hockey world. Good news though... He's still very young, and will only improve on each and every area of his game.

Edited May 15, 2020 by krsmith17

[marcaractac 3,963]

3 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Depends on his age vs the size of his contract.

And the team's cap situation

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

On 5/15/2020 at 11:48 AM, mackel said:

Hot tip I didn't write the article...  they writers at the Hockey News did so your beef is with them... Let's see how that goes for ya.

 I understand it was an article. But when someone else said Zadina should have been 5th on the list above Koke and Hayton, you said "No...Try again." The reasonable conclusion I deduce from your response is that you think Koke and Hayton should be above Zadina.

You have explained why you think Kotkaniemi is still the better player. I disagree, but you at least addressed it.

What I am wondering is why you think Hayton should also be above Zadina in a redraft based on where they are and what they've done 2 years later. Hayton has only played in 20 NHL games so far and only has 4 points. Based on those facts, I just don't see how anyone can make a valid argument that he is a better player. And you haven't made one either.

You call myself and others "homers" because we think Zadina has been better than both Kotkaniemi and Hayton, implying that we have a bias for our own draft picks.

But at the same time, you argue that both of those players are better than Zadina, despite the stats saying otherwise, especially in the case of Hayton. This gives me the impression that you actually have a personal bias against Zadina yourself.

Bias goes both ways my friend.

[13dangledangle 965]

Our boy Mo sat down and talked with Bob Kaser, nothing too interesting but it’s better than nothing at this point.  That and perhaps it’ll shake up this thread a little...

 

https://youtu.be/DV7mNg_B6P8

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

On 5/15/2020 at 3:37 PM, krsmith17 said:

Because it's real gud. He's real gud. He has the potential to be great.

He's smart, has a lethal shot, underrated passing, plays both sides of the puck. He just put up over *half* a point per game in his rookie season, as a 20 year old. If he tops out as a 40 point winger, it will be a huge disappointment, but still wouldn't be labeled a bust by anyone in the hockey world. Good news though... He's still very young, and will only improve on each and every area of his game.

Bingo: Huge disappointment.

Your - and you're not alone on the board in this - obsession with my use of the word "bust" really needs to be gotten over. You know where I stand - Zadina = Hudler/Tatar/Nyquist - so why do we have to have this "HE'S NOT A BUST THOUGH!" diatribe every time we discuss Zadina? By your own definition of the word bust, I don't think he's a bust... so why're you wasting my time with this every time Zadina comes up? If you don't like me saying "bust relative to draft position" just substitute it for "huge disappointment relative to draft position" I don't care. 

I would say Zadina is very skilled and know's how to operate with the puck on his stick, but I wouldn't say he's smart. I'll elaborate. I breakdown smarts into two categories: decision-making and situational-awareness.

Situational-awareness: The ability to read the unfolding play. Players who are high in situational awareness rarely find themselves out of position and operate well in a cycle.  Examples: Datsyuk, Tyler Bertuzzi

Decision-making: The ability and instinct to make the correct decision with or without the puck. Players who have good decision-making commit less turnovers and operate well in clearly defined systems. Examples: Zetterberg, Chris Ehn

Essentially awareness is the ability to go to the correct spot on the ice, and decision making is the ability to execute the correct play once you get there.

These attributes aren't mutually exclusive. Players like Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Lidstrom exhibit both to a high degree. Whereas someone like Ehn has very good decision making, but comparatively very poor awareness. Likewise Tyler Bertuzzi has very high awareness, but maybe average to above average decision making.

Zadina has extremely good decision-making, but very average awareness from what I've seen. Almost the FOIL of Tyler Bertuzzi. If I put him in position to score or to strip the puck he will most certainly do it. He has that high level of skill and know how. But I question his ability to get to that position in the first place. Lets take his defense as an example. Zadina back checks HARD, and if you let him get too close he will certainly pick pocket you in a very Datysukian way. However, this sorta play doesn't happen all that often with him... Why? Because he rarely finds himself in the correct position to make this play. Unlike Datsyuk he's prone to getting caught a half second behind the unfolding play. This translates to his offensive game as well and it's probably going to get exposed a lot worse this coming year now that teams are dialed in on him. He won't have the same time and space he did this year. The worst part about this is it's much easier to teach correct decision making than it is too teach instinctive awareness.

His shot is extremely good. But I keep seeing this "his passing his underrated" trope everywhere I go since the end of this season. Nah, his passing is pretty average and always has been. I really do think fans are trying to compensate here. 7 assists on the season is good for a rookie, but there's no hidden passing gem there. If Zadina's passing is so underrated then so is Hudler's and Tatar's.

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[krsmith17 7,191]

13 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Bingo: Huge disappointment.

Your - and you're not alone on the board in this - obsession with my use of the word "bust" really needs to be gotten over. You know where I stand - Zadina = Hudler/Tatar/Nyquist - so why do we have to have this "HE'S NOT A BUST THOUGH!" diatribe every time we discuss Zadina? By your own definition of the word bust, I don't think he's a bust... so why're you wasting my time with this every time Zadina comes up? If you don't like me saying "bust relative to draft position" just substitute it for "huge disappointment relative to draft position" I don't care. 

I would say Zadina is very skilled and know's how to operate with the puck on his stick, but I wouldn't say he's smart. I'll elaborate. I breakdown smarts into two categories: decision-making and situational-awareness.

Situational-awareness: The ability to read the unfolding play. Players who are high in situational awareness rarely find themselves out of position and operate well in a cycle.  Examples: Datsyuk, Tyler Bertuzzi

Decision-making: The ability and instinct to make the correct decision with or without the puck. Players who have good decision-making commit less turnovers and operate well in clearly defined systems. Examples: Zetterberg, Chris Ehn

Essentially awareness is the ability to go to the correct spot on the ice, and decision making is the ability to execute the correct play once you get there.

These attributes aren't mutually exclusive. Players like Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Lidstrom exhibit both to a high degree. Whereas someone like Ehn has very good decision making, but comparatively very poor awareness. Likewise Tyler Bertuzzi has very high awareness, but maybe average to above average decision making.

Zadina has extremely good decision-making, but very average awareness from what I've seen. Almost the FOIL of Tyler Bertuzzi. If I put him in position to score or to strip the puck he will most certainly do it. He has that high level of skill and know how. But I question his ability to get to that position in the first place. Lets take his defense as an example. Zadina back checks HARD, and if you let him get too close he will certainly pick pocket you in a very Datysukian way. However, this sorta play doesn't happen all that often with him... Why? Because he rarely finds himself in the correct position to make this play. Unlike Datsyuk he's prone to getting caught a half second behind the unfolding play. This translates to his offensive game as well and it's probably going to get exposed a lot worse this coming year now that teams are dialed in on him. He won't have the same time and space he did this year. The worst part about this is it's much easier to teach correct decision making than it is too teach instinctive awareness.

His shot is extremely good. But I keep seeing this "his passing his underrated" trope everywhere I go since the end of this season. Nah, his passing is pretty average and always has been. I really do think fans are trying to compensate here. 7 assists on the season is good for a rookie, but there's no hidden passing gem there. If Zadina's passing is so underrated then so is Hudler's and Tatar's.

Disappointment ≠ Bust

Why are you wasting everyone else's time by using the word, when it clearly doesn't describe the player, or his game. Not now, and likely not ever.

Your entire argument has been based on what an 18, 19 and now 20 year old is now, and not what he is likely to develop into. The problem with that is, he obviously still has a ton of room to grow, and I fully expect him to. His numbers early on have been impressive, and he has been and will continue to improve in all areas of the game.

I'm done with this argument now. You don't think he will be a bust, you just think his ceiling is what most believe to his floor. That's fine.

I posted this video in the prospects thread, but I'll throw it in here as well...

Kid is going to be real gud.

Edit: regarding his passing... I believe it is underrated. It is on full display in quite a few of the clips above. Worth the watch.

Edited May 18, 2020 by krsmith17

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

10 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Disappointment ≠ Bust

Why are you wasting everyone else's time by using the word, when it clearly doesn't describe the player, or his game. Not now, and likely not ever.

Maybe because I'm not at the mercy of your definition of "Bust"... Maybe spend more time watching Zadina play instead of policing other posters language.

13 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Your entire argument has been based on what an 18, 19 and now 20 year old is now

And your entire argument is based on "kid gunna be real gud. Source: trust me"

15 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

and not what he is likely to develop into. The problem with that is, he obviously still has a ton of room to grow, and I fully expect him to. His numbers early on have been impressive, and he has been and will continue to improve in all areas of the game.

This is maybe your dumbest post so far. I'm 100% basing my eval on what I think he'll develop into. How did you miss it? I explicitly say multiple times I think he'll develop into a future Hudler/Nyquist/Tatar.

19 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I'm done with this argument now.

Please. I'd like to discuss Zadina with an adult who doesn't whine about the word bust in every post.

[krsmith17 7,191]

9 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Maybe because I'm not at the mercy of your definition of "Bust"... Maybe spend more time watching Zadina play instead of policing other posters language.

You've used a word to inaccurately describe a player. I'm calling you out on it.

I've watched Zadina plenty. I'm betting much more than you. I just posted a 28 minute highlight video and you responded in less than 20 minutes, so I'm going to assume you didn't bother to watch. Why bother right?

15 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

And your entire argument is based on "kid gunna be real gud. Source: trust me"

And your entire argument is based on 'wall of text' that inaccurately describes his game. "Trust me".

Your bias is showing...

16 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

This is maybe your dumbest post so far. I'm 100% basing my eval on what I think he'll develop into. How did you miss it? I explicitly say multiple times I think he'll develop into a future Hudler/Nyquist/Tatar.

Yes, keep saying that his ceiling is Hudler / Nyquist / Tatar, and that equals bust. It doesn't. Just because all were 2nd round (or later) picks, doesn't mean s***. In a re-draft, all would be top 10-20 draft picks. Also, Zadina is waaaaay ahead of all of them in his development at the same age. Your comparison doesn't make any sense, aside from style of play. Overall potential, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that would agree.

25 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Please. I'd like to discuss Zadina with an adult who doesn't whine about the word bust in every post.

LOL cry more.

[mackel 681]

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Maybe because I'm not at the mercy of your definition of "Bust"... Maybe spend more time watching Zadina play instead of policing other posters language.

And your entire argument is based on "kid gunna be real gud. Source: trust me"

This is maybe your dumbest post so far. I'm 100% basing my eval on what I think he'll develop into. How did you miss it? I explicitly say multiple times I think he'll develop into a future Hudler/Nyquist/Tatar.

Please. I'd like to discuss Zadina with an adult who doesn't whine about the word bust in every post.

@krsmith17 would be the type of guy to look at this stat line for a 19 year old prospect and project a superstar in the making:

NHL

48

17

14

31

24

Clearly this player projects to be the next big thing and certainly NOT a bust...  based on the STATS.

Well this player is Nail Yakupov, one of the biggest busts in league history... THAT IS problem with making a projection based solely on stats especially when combined with a small sample size.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

54 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

You've used a word to inaccurately describe a player. I'm calling you out on it.

>thinking a subjective opinion is inaccurate

56 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I've watched Zadina plenty. I'm betting much more than you. I just posted a 28 minute highlight video and you responded in less than 20 minutes, so I'm going to assume you didn't bother to watch. Why bother right?

Classic Krsmith: "no one watches the games except me"
I've already seen all of Zadina's highlights partner. I watched 3 hours of Miro Heiskanen footage yesterday for the fun of it.

58 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

And your entire argument is based on 'wall of text' that inaccurately describes his game. "Trust me".

Your bias is showing...

I have a "wall of text" because I think critically about Zadina and developed an analysis of his talents for discussion based on those thoughts and observations. Instead of disputing any of my points, you just write that mine is "inaccurate"...

You don't want to discuss. You want everyone to just accept "he real gud" and move on. Because you don't have anything of value to contribute to the discussion besides "he real gud". You're devoid any substance or critical thought. Sad.

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Yes, keep saying that his ceiling is Hudler / Nyquist / Tatar, and that equals bust. It doesn't. Just because all were 2nd round (or later) picks, doesn't mean s***. In a re-draft, all would be top 10-20 draft picks. Also, Zadina is waaaaay ahead of all of them in his development at the same age. Your comparison doesn't make any sense, aside from style of play. Overall potential, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that would agree.

Again, more obsession and triggering over the word bust. Color me surprised.

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

LOL cry more.

"Im done with this discussion"
*Keeps responding*

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

15 minutes ago, mackel said:

@krsmith17 would be the type of guy to look at this stat line for a 19 year old prospect and project a superstar in the making:

NHL

48

17

14

31

24

Clearly this player projects to be the next big thing and certainly NOT a bust...  based on the STATS.

Well this player is Nail Yakupov, one of the biggest busts in league history... THAT IS problem with making a projection based solely on stats especially when combined with a small sample size.

Krsmith timeline:

>Brendan Smith is gonna be real gud
>Petr Mrazek is gonna be real gud
>Tomas Jurco is gonna be real gud
>Filip Zadina is gonna be real gud <--- you are here

My favorite part is he claims to watch more footage than everyone else. But he can't write anything about Zadina's game other than: "shot good. pass good. he gonna be real good" and argue the stats. Truly a mega big galaxy brain.

[krsmith17 7,191]

16 minutes ago, mackel said:

@krsmith17 would be the type of guy to look at this stat line for a 19 year old prospect and project a superstar in the making:

NHL

48

17

14

31

24

Clearly this player projects to be the next big thing and certainly NOT a bust...  based on the STATS.

Well this player is Nail Yakupov, one of the biggest busts in league history... THAT IS problem with making a projection based solely on stats especially when combined with a small sample size.

Yup, you're right. Based on those stats alone, at the age of 19, anyone would assume future superstar. The difference is, we have more than stats to go on here. There's nothing in Zadina's game that would indicate he's anything close to a bust.

Yakupov was the exception, not the rule. He had a bad attitude and didn't want to put in the work. Zadina is a work horse and is very clearly willing to put in the work. Big difference.

6 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Classic Krsmith: "no one watches the games except me"

I didn't say or imply that you don't watch the games, but it's worth questioning with your terrible analysis.

8 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I've already seen all of Zadina's highlights partner. I watched 3 hours of Miro Heiskanen footage yesterday for the fun of it.

Good for you... lol

9 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I have a "wall of text" because I think critically about Zadina and developed an analysis of his talents for discussion based on those thoughts and observations. Instead of disputing any of my points, you just write that mine is "inaccurate"...

You don't want to discuss. You want everyone to just accept "he real gud" and move on. Because you don't have anything of value to contribute to the discussion besides "he real gud". You're devoid any substance or critical thought. Sad.

You've yet to come up with anything of substance to back up your claim that "he's the next Hudler / Nyquist / Tatar". Probably because there's nothing there.

Again, he's way ahead of all of them at the same age. You have nothing, except for the fact that they're all European, smallish (Zadina is bigger than all three) skilled wingers.

10 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Krsmith timeline:

>Brendan Smith is gonna be real gud
>Petr Mrazek is gonna be real gud
>Tomas Jurco is gonna be real gud
>Filip Zadina is gonna be real gud <--- you are here

My favorite part is he claims to watch more footage than everyone else. But he can't write anything about Zadina's game other than: "shot good. pass good. he gonna be real good" and argue the stats. Truly a mega big galaxy brain.

I always know you're down and out when you bring up Brendan Smith... "Durrr, remember that time you thought Smith was good?"... "You were wrong back then, so you're obviously wrong now"...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

I didn't say or imply that you don't watch the games, but it's worth questioning with your terrible analysis.

You literally did just that lol

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

I've watched Zadina plenty. I'm betting much more than you. I just posted a 28 minute highlight video and you responded in less than 20 minutes, so I'm going to assume you didn't bother to watch. Why bother right?

If my analysis is so terrible dissect it. Debate it. Dispute. But you can't so you won't.

4 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

You've yet to come up with anything of substance to back up your claim that "he's the next Hudler / Nyquist / Tatar". Probably because there's nothing there.

 

Again, he's way ahead of all of them at the same age. You have nothing, except for the fact that they're all European, smallish (Zadina is bigger than all three) skilled wingers.

I literally posted a "wall of text" with my substantive views on the player. You're mental. I didn't even mention his size or europeaness in the entire thing lol.

[krsmith17 7,191]

4 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

You literally did just that lol

No, I literally didn't.

4 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

If my analysis is so terrible dissect it. Debate it. Dispute. But you can't so you won't.

I've done it. Others have done it. I'm not doing it again, and it's probably why others aren't getting involved again. It's a tired argument that I'm dumb for getting wrapped into again.

I refute something you say, and you choose not to address that part of my post. You do it all the time. You cherry pick everyone's posts.

7 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I literally posted a "wall of text" with my substantive views on the player. You're mental. I didn't even mention his size or europeaness in the entire thing lol.

Again, nothing of substance that would indicate to anyone (other than you), that his ceiling is a 2nd line winger (Hudler / Nyquist / Tatar)...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

No, I literally didn't.

I mean.. I can quote you again lol:

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

I've watched Zadina plenty. I'm betting much more than you. I just posted a 28 minute highlight video and you responded in less than 20 minutes, so I'm going to assume you didn't bother to watch. Why bother right?

 

3 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I've done it. Others have done it. I'm not doing it again, and it's probably why others aren't getting involved again. It's a tired argument that I'm dumb for getting wrapped into again.

I refute something you say, and you choose not to address that part of my post. You do it all the time. You cherry pick everyone's posts.

Your living in fantasy land. I've literally complained multiple times that no one will get into the nitty gritty with me about Zadina. And so far no one has. Dabura came close once.

6 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Again, nothing of substance that would indicate to anyone (other than you), that his ceiling is a 2nd line winger (Hudler / Nyquist / Tatar)...

A wall of text breaking down his cerebral abilities isn't substance? And "he real gud" is?

[krsmith17 7,191]

6 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I mean.. I can quote you again lol:

You sure can. And nowhere in that quote did I say, "no one watches the games except me"...

8 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Your living in fantasy land. I've literally complained multiple times that no one will get into the nitty gritty with me about Zadina. And so far no one has. Dabura came close once.

Yeah, okay... No one can explain the nitty gritty details of Zadina's game like you can...

10 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

A wall of text breaking down his cerebral abilities isn't substance? And "he real gud" is?

Sure, except none of what you say would leave anyone to believe he tops out as any of those players. If you're going for style of play, sure, I'd agree. But overall potential, not even close. AGAIN, the part that you have not, and will not address, he's much further ahead, at the same age as any of those players. He's still only 20 years old. To say he tops out as a 2nd line winger at this point is dumb.

I say he's an underrated passer, and you call it a trope. You want me to explain in detail why I believe he's a really good passer? Not worth the time and energy. Watch the highlight video I posted, and you'll see plenty quality passing. Anyway, we're very clearly watching a different player. I'm seeing the same things the majority of the hockey world are seeing. You're seeing the opposite. Agree to disagree... 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

43 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

You sure can. And nowhere in that quote did I say, "no one watches the games except me"...

Exhibit A:

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

I didn't say or imply that you don't watch the games

Exhibit B:

3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I've watched Zadina plenty. I'm betting much more than you.

Exhibit C:

3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I just posted a 28 minute highlight video and you responded in less than 20 minutes, so I'm going to assume you didn't bother to watch. Why bother right?

Classic KRsmith appeal to authority. You love to imply how much more hockey you watch than everyone else in an effort to assert that your opinion is the only valid one. Remember the Veleno/Fabbri thread? The one where you thought you were the only one who knows about AHLTV? lol

43 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Yeah, okay... No one can explain the nitty gritty details of Zadina's game like you can...

Have at it. For all the footage you watch one would think you'd have a pretty developed nuanced opinion of his play beyond "he real gud". I still have yet to see it. Instead you seem to have every excuse in the book as to why you can't post it. Topical suggestions:

• Skating
• Board work and forecheck
• Offensive cycle and positioning
• Defense
• Individual skills (passing shooting dekeing)
• Intangibles/Hustle

43 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Sure, except none of what you say would leave anyone to believe he tops out as any of those players. If you're going for style of play, sure, I'd agree. But overall potential, not even close. AGAIN, the part that you have not, and will not address, he's much further ahead, at the same age as any of those players. He's still only 20 years old.

I'm aware of how young he is. I'm also aware of the amount of success he had this season. I still don't see a ceiling any higher than Hudler or Tatar. Being good at a young age doesn't automatically mean a player develops into a superstar forward or 1A Dman, but it certainly helps. Does that address it enough for you?

43 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

To say he tops out as a 2nd line winger at this point is dumb.

Why? Cause you happen to disagree? Just too soon to tell?

What if I said he tops out as a 1st line winger with 70-90 pts? Would it still be dumb to you then?

If it's too soon to say, then when isn't it too soon to say? 21? 22? 23? 24? 25? 26? At what age does Zadina have to be that we are allowed to discuss him without making you all upset?

43 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I say he's an underrated passer, and you call it a trope. You want me to explain in detail why I believe he's a really good passer? Not worth the time and energy. Watch the highlight video I posted, and you'll see plenty quality passing. Anyway, we're very clearly watching a different player. I'm seeing the same things the majority of the hockey world are seeing. You're seeing the opposite. Agree to disagree... 

I call it a trope, because it's been in every Zadina fans mouth since about March. Anywhere you go suddenly everyone thinks he's secretly some underrated passing phenom. HFboards. Reddit. Twitter. Here. I think no differently about his passing this year than I did last year. He's a good passer. Always has been. Nothing's changed. Is he secretly some Joe Thornton 50, 60, 70 assist a season guy? Hell nah.

Go ahead and try me. Explain his passing greatness to me. You come here and go back and forth with me for pages over dribble but can't be bothered to actually further the discussion with substance about his passing? This is exactly what I complain about. No one has the balls to actually put there opinions out there and go thru the nitty gritty. Instead you have every excuse why you can't. If you have something insightful to say about it stop talking about saying it and SAY IT!

Edited May 18, 2020 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[krsmith17 7,191]

21 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Exhibit A:

Exhibit B:

Exhibit C:

Not one, not two, but three exhibits? None of which I said "no one watches the games except me"... 

I'm sure if someone said that Seider will top out as a middle pair defenseman, you would question how much they've actually watched him play, even if they typed a whole lot of drivel as well...

27 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Classic KRsmith appeal to authority. You love to imply how much more hockey you watch than everyone else in an effort to assert that your opinion is the only valid one. Remember the Veleno/Fabbri thread? The one where you thought you were the only one who knows about AHLTV? lol

Yeah, go find that quote too dumbass...

I've never said I watch more hockey then anyone. In fact, I've been asked recently on here, a question regarding a prospect, and I said I haven't been able to watch near as much hockey the past couple seasons. I used to watch a game, usually two, every single night, whether it was Red Wings, Griffins, CHL or some obscure European league. I still don't miss a Wings game (haven't in years), but I only watched a dozen or so Griffins games this year, and zero of any other league.

I'm sure there's many here that watch more hockey than me. You may even be one of them...

37 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Why? Cause you happen to disagree? Just too soon to tell?

Bingo. He's playing top six in the NHL at the age of 19/20, when none of the players you mentioned played that sort of role until they were 23/24. To say he tops out as the player he is now, is dumb.

"WhY? BeCaUsE yOu SaY sO?"

Sure...

It was too soon to call him a bust two years ago, and it's too soon today.

41 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

What if I said he tops out as a 1st line winger with 70-90 pts? Would it still be dumb to you then?

I'd say that's more accurate as a ceiling, yeah.

42 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

If it's too soon to say, then when isn't it too soon to say? 21? 22? 23? 24? 25? 26? At what age does Zadina have to be that we are allowed to discuss him without making you all upset?

You are more than welcome to discuss him now. I'm not at all upset. Discuss away. But say dumb things like, "Zadina is a bust", or he "tops out as a 2nd line winger", and you're going to get called out.

44 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I call it a trope, because it's been in every Zadina fans mouth since about March. Anywhere you go suddenly everyone thinks he's secretly some underrated passing phenom. HFboards. Reddit. Twitter. Here. I think no differently about his passing this year than I did last year. He's a good passer. Always has been. Nothing's changed. Is he secretly some Joe Thornton 50, 60, 70 assist a season guy? Hell nah.

Go ahead and try me. Explain his passing greatness to me. You come here and go back and forth with me for pages over dribble but can't be bothered to actually further the discussion with substance about his passing? This is exactly what I complain about. No one has the balls to actually put there opinions out there and go thru the nitty gritty. Instead you have every excuse why you can't. If you have something insightful to say about it stop talking about saying it and SAY IT!

Every fan is wrong, except for you and mackel I guess. You guys just have an knack for evaluating NHL talent...

"Underrated passing" does not equal "passing phenom", or "passing greatness". He's known as a sniper, so most people think he's not a great setup man. That's not true. He can see the seem, and go tape to tape in traffic.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

19 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Not one, not two, but three exhibits? None of which I said "no one watches the games except me"...

You stated you never implied it. You certainly did. At the very least that you watch more and therefore know better.

21 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I'm sure if someone said that Seider will top out as a middle pair defenseman, you would question how much they've actually watched him play, even if they typed a whole lot of drivel as well...

Try it. I haven't seen anyone do it.

On draft day more than a few folks questioned the pick. My response was lengthy posts about his usage in the DEL, comments from his coach, stats, and style of play. You can go back to that thread and see for yourself.

27 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Yeah, go find that quote too dumbass...

Here ya go:

On 2/11/2020 at 3:09 PM, krsmith17 said:

I can count on one hand the number of games I've missed in the past 10 years...

On 2/11/2020 at 12:46 PM, krsmith17 said:

Ok, so you don't watch the Griffins... No big deal. But it makes perfect sense why you think Rasmussen is the far superior player...

On 2/11/2020 at 11:21 AM, krsmith17 said:

You keep talking about the numbers. We're all well aware of the numbers. Have you watched them play? Serious question. I have a LOT this season, and both are being highly utilized. Veleno is always out there to take key draws. He's on the power-play (left wall) and penalty kill. Rasmussen is only on the power-play (net-front). I also wish TOI was tracked in the AHL, because I would think their average TOI is very close, maybe even slightly in Veleno's favor, due to being on both special teams. I think they're more of a 1A / 1B, than a 1 / 2 right now.

Which leads us to now:

35 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I've never said I watch more hockey then anyone. In fact, I've been asked recently on here, a question regarding a prospect, and I said I haven't been able to watch near as much hockey the past couple seasons. I used to watch a game, usually two, every single night, whether it was Red Wings, Griffins, CHL or some obscure European league. I still don't miss a Wings game (haven't in years), but I only watched a dozen or so Griffins games this year, and zero of any other league.

I'm sure there's many here that watch more hockey than me. You may even be one of them...

So which is it? You have watched the Girffins "a LOT" this season? Or only a dozen or so times?

38 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Bingo. He's playing top six in the NHL at the age of 19/20, when none of the players you mentioned played that sort of role until they were 23/24. To say he tops out as the player he is now, is dumb.

"WhY? BeCaUsE yOu SaY sO?"

Sure...

It was too soon to call him a bust two years ago, and it's too soon today.

I didn't say he tops out as the player he is now. I think he develops into a Tatar, Nyquist, Hudler.

41 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

"WhY? BeCaUsE yOu SaY sO?"

No I gave a "wall of text" as to why I think he tops out where I think he does. Good try though?

42 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I'd say that's more accurate as a ceiling, yeah.

Wait wait wait... I thought it's too soon to tell thou?

43 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

You are more than welcome to discuss him now. I'm not at all upset. Discuss away. But say dumb things like, "Zadina is a bust", or he "tops out as a 2nd line winger", and you're going to get called out.

I'm going to "get called out" for having a different opinion than your own?

46 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Every fan is wrong, except for you and mackel I guess. You guys just have an knack for evaluating NHL talent...

"Underrated passing" does not equal "passing phenom", or "passing greatness". He's known as a sniper, so most people think he's not a great setup man. That's not true. He can see the seem, and go tape to tape in traffic.

Every fan is wrong except me? I certainly never made this statement. I'm aware of the fact that I might be wrong on Zadina.

Sure he can pass in traffic. About as good as Hudler or Tatar or Nyquist can/could. And at 6th overall I should damn well hope he can pass at that level.

[mackel 681]

3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Yup, you're right. Based on those stats alone, at the age of 19, anyone would assume future superstar. The difference is, we have more than stats to go on here. There's nothing in Zadina's game that would indicate he's anything close to a bust.

Yakupov was the exception, not the rule. He had a bad attitude and didn't want to put in the work. Zadina is a work horse and is very clearly willing to put in the work. Big difference.

I didn't say or imply that you don't watch the games, but it's worth questioning with your terrible analysis.

Good for you... lol

You've yet to come up with anything of substance to back up your claim that "he's the next Hudler / Nyquist / Tatar". Probably because there's nothing there.

Again, he's way ahead of all of them at the same age. You have nothing, except for the fact that they're all European, smallish (Zadina is bigger than all three) skilled wingers.

I always know you're down and out when you bring up Brendan Smith... "Durrr, remember that time you thought Smith was good?"... "You were wrong back then, so you're obviously wrong now"...

You've got fewer stats than that, they aren't as good and I'm literally making fun of your sole argument from earlier in the thread.

His entire game is predicated on scoring goals (filling nets) and hes struggled to do that outside the Q, ie any league where he's been asked to have the least modicum of defensive responsibility. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

37 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

You stated you never implied it. You certainly did. At the very least that you watch more and therefore know better.

As I already said, only because I can't fathom anyone calling a recent 6th overall pick that has performed very well at the NHL level, at the age of 20, a bust.

And again, as I already said, I'm sure you would infer the same if someone said Seider is a "bust".

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Try it. I haven't seen anyone do it.

Why would I "try it", when it's not what I believe?

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

So which is it? You have watched the Girffins "a LOT" this season? Or only a dozen or so times?

My bad. At that point in the season, I had watched 23 (a few were partial) Griffins games. Just went back and checked. As I'm sure you know, you can click on the app and see exactly which games you've watched.

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I didn't say he tops out as the player he is now. I think he develops into a Tatar, Nyquist, Hudler.

Which is a top six winger. Zadina is already a top six winger, and would be on most NHL teams.

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

No I gave a "wall of text" as to why I think he tops out where I think he does. Good try though?

That was me saying that's what you would respond with. Not what I was asking you...

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Wait wait wait... I thought it's too soon to tell thou?

It's too soon to tell what Zadina will eventually become. So yes, in my opinion, it is way too soon to say his ceiling is a 2nd line winger. No it's not too soon to say his ceiling could be a top line winger... since that is the ceiling of any NHL winger...

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I'm going to "get called out" for having a different opinion than your own?

No. You're going to get called out for calling a 20 year old, top prospect, that has performed very well, a bust. 

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Every fan is wrong except me? I certainly never made this statement. I'm aware of the fact that I might be wrong on Zadina.

Sure he can pass in traffic. About as good as Hudler or Tatar or Nyquist can/could. And at 6th overall I should damn well hope he can pass at that level.

You certainly "implied it"...

"Every fan" thinks one thing. I think the opposite. I'm right. They're all wrong.

Nyquist was also a very underrated playmaker.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

7 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

No, I literally didn't.

I've done it. Others have done it. I'm not doing it again, and it's probably why others aren't getting involved again. It's a tired argument that I'm dumb for getting wrapped into again.

I refute something you say, and you choose not to address that part of my post. You do it all the time. You cherry pick everyone's posts.

Again, nothing of substance that would indicate to anyone (other than you), that his ceiling is a 2nd line winger (Hudler / Nyquist / Tatar)...

Just out of curiosity, are comparing him to those players in terms of their play, lineup position, or point totals?

Hudler never broke 60 points except for the 14-15 season in Calgary.

Nyquist only broke 50 points once.

Tatar broke 50 points in only 3 of his 9 seasons.

I just don't see any similarities. All 3 are different style players than Zadina.

All 3 are career 2nd line wingers. I see Zadina as a 2nd line winger as he's developing his game before becoming a top liner in his mid thru late 20's, then falling back into a middle 6 role in his 30's.

Also, I think Zadina puts up more points and becomes a better scorer than any of those 3. I think he becomes a 60 to 70 point guy by his mid 20's. None of those other 3 ever did that.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

As I already said, only because I can't fathom anyone calling a recent 6th overall pick that has performed very well at the NHL level, at the age of 20, a bust.

And again, as I already said, I'm sure you would infer the same if someone said Seider is a "bust".

Well lets be clear on what "bust" means now since your so very uptight about the use of the word. He's a bust relative to the expectations I have for someone of his draft pedigree.

Cool? Cool.

In regards to Seider we're gonna play "you would do the same in my shoes". Okay. Frankly I don't appreciate you assuming that. If I behave badly in a zealous defense of Seider plz go ahead and call me out with the blood on my hands. But till I do it, I resent the implication I would. Don't find me guilty before the crime is even committed. That outta the way, I gave you examples of my responses to Seider critics on draft day. The closest thing we got. I believe I won many folks over to Seiders team that day because I didn't brow beat anyone who critiqued him. I spoke passionately and in depth about his game, and let that speak for itself. The same thing I'm asking Zadina fans to do. I can write pages about why Seider is THAT good. Can you even give me one wall text about Zadina?

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Why would I "try it", when it's not what I believe?

Like I said, it hasn't been done other than draft day a little. But I do believe I could go to toe to toe with any theoretical persons with serious criticisms of him in a constructive substantive way. I could write a paragraph on his gap control alone. Till the day comes.

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

My bad. At that point in the season, I had watched 23 (a few were partial) Griffins games. Just went back and checked. As I'm sure you know, you can click on the app and see exactly which games you've watched.

Is this on your tv? I mostly only use the app on my phone.

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Which is a top six winger. Zadina is already a top six winger, and would be on most NHL teams.

lol naah he'll be better than this year. He woulda been at best a 3rd liner on any decent team and may have not even been called up.

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

That was me saying that's what you would respond with. Not what I was asking you...

And why're you assuming what I will respond with? You dont have a law or science background, that much I know now.

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

It's too soon to tell what Zadina will eventually become. So yes, in my opinion, it is way too soon to say his ceiling is a 2nd line winger. No it's not too soon to say his ceiling could be a top line winger... since that is the ceiling of any NHL winger...

Ohhhh I see. How convenient. Every forward has the potential to be a top liner yes. Now then by that logic you will concede that Chris Ehn has top line potential no?

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

No. You're going to get called out for calling a 20 year old, top prospect, that has performed very well, a bust. 

Don't get carried away now: Bust relative to expectation.

Alright. I'm all ears. Convince me I'm wrong. I want to believe. Go.

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

You certainly "implied it"...

"Every fan" thinks one thing. I think the opposite. I'm right. They're all wrong.

Nyquist was also a very underrated playmaker.

I'm not following.

Nyquist is a underrated passer huh? All the more the two have in common lol.

8 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Just out of curiosity, are comparing him to those players in terms of their play, lineup position, or point totals?

Hudler never broke 60 points except for the 14-15 season in Calgary.

Nyquist only broke 50 points once.

Tatar broke 50 points in only 3 of his 9 seasons.

I just don't see any similarities. All 3 are different style players than Zadina.

All 3 are career 2nd line wingers. I see Zadina as a 2nd line winger as he's developing his game before becoming a top liner in his mid thru late 20's, then falling back into a middle 6 role in his 30's.

Also, I think Zadina puts up more points and becomes a better scorer than any of those 3. I think he becomes a 60 to 70 point guy by his mid 20's. None of those other 3 ever did that.

Elaborate. Forewarning: I certainly don't agree.

Edited May 19, 2020 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

9 hours ago, mackel said:

@krsmith17 would be the type of guy to look at this stat line for a 19 year old prospect and project a superstar in the making:

NHL

48

17

14

31

24

Clearly this player projects to be the next big thing and certainly NOT a bust...  based on the STATS.

Well this player is Nail Yakupov, one of the biggest busts in league history... THAT IS problem with making a projection based solely on stats especially when combined with a small sample size.

 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

40 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Well lets be clear on what "bust" means now since your so very uptight about the use of the word. He's a bust relative to the expectations I have for someone of his draft pedigree.

Cool? Cool.

In regards to Seider we're gonna play "you would do the same in my shoes". Okay. Frankly I don't appreciate you assuming that. If I behave badly in a zealous defense of Seider plz go ahead and call me out with the blood on my hands. But till I do it, I resent the implication I would. Don't find me guilty before the crime is even committed. That outta the way, I gave you examples of my responses to Seider critics on draft day. The closest thing we got. I believe I won many folks over to Seiders team that day because I didn't brow beat anyone who critiqued him. I spoke passionately and in depth about his game, and let that speak for itself. The same thing I'm asking Zadina fans to do. I can write pages about why Seider is THAT good. Can you even give me one wall text about Zadina?

Like I said, it hasn't been done other than draft day a little. But I do believe I could go to toe to toe with any theoretical persons with serious criticisms of him in a constructive substantive way. I could write a paragraph on his gap control alone. Till the day comes.

Is this on your tv? I mostly only use the app on my phone.

lol naah he'll be better than this year. He woulda been at best a 3rd liner on any decent team and may have not even been called up.

And why're you assuming what I will respond with? You dont have a law or science background, that much I know now.

Ohhhh I see. How convenient. Every forward has the potential to be a top liner yes. Now then by that logic you will concede that Chris Ehn has top line potential no?

Don't get carried away now: Bust relative to expectation.

Alright. I'm all ears. Convince me I'm wrong. I want to believe. Go.

I'm not following.

Nyquist is a underrated passer huh? All the more the two have in common lol.

Elaborate. Forewarning: I certainly don't agree.

Nyquist, Tatar, and Hudler were all 5-9 to 5-10 and played even smaller IMO. They werent floaters necessarily, but they also weren't really aggressive, go in and get the puck type guys. The were like flies when they did have the puck, buzzing around, trying to weave in and out of traffic. They were also more dependant on others for offense.

Zadina doesn't play like that. He isn't much bigger per se, 6-0, but he doesn't seem "small" on the puck. He seems more aggressive to me. He creates more offense for himself than the others did. I think his shot is better, and I think he is a better finisher.

I've said before that I would compare Zadina's style of play to a different former Wing: Marion Hossa. Now Hossa was a better player, and I don't think Zadina reaches that level, but I do see him as a lesser Hossa.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Neomaxizoomdweebie