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#2606019 Jim Devellano on Mantha's play: "Very disappointing"

Posted by Richdg on Yesterday, 09:12 PM

Calling him out like that is 1. Unnecessary and 2. Embarrassing guy came back after a broken leg and went into his first pro season. Heck I'd trade Nyquist, Tatar before trading Mantha guy has the size and skill to become a power forward.

True, but we have to remember. Kenny prefers his forwards to be 5-10/180 and from docile socialist countries.......LOL. This makes it easier for him to make a trade for a 37+ year old pending UFA.......

#2605460 Things you would like to see for 2015-16 Season

Posted by Playmaker on 01 May 2015 - 04:03 PM

I really love seeing all the "We need the kids to play. We need to be faster." 


Oh yeah?


Who do you think has played the last two years? How'd that work out for us?


"Youth and enthusiasm will only take you so far." - Brett Hull (Hockeytown 3)


We need to teach these guys to play.


Why is Datsyuk so much better? Oh, I don't know. Scotty. Shanahan. Yzerman. Federov. They were at the tail end of their careers...


No one probably remembers this but in 2002 Datsyuk missed an assignment against Colorado. They scored. He never saw the ice the rest of the game.


Now I know a lot of you are just begging to see the Detroit Griffins, but newsflash, the NHL isn't the AHL.


How'd Pulk look when he came up? And is Mantha just lights out right now in the minors?


Give me a break. Think about what you're saying.


Someone else wrote on here, "No free agent is guaranteed." That logic applies to prospects, too. i.e. Everyone who was drafted before Datsyuk who is probably not as good.


We need to try and win a Cup every single year. That's the goal. If you're not about that, then move to Nashville. They make the playoffs a lot. Whoop-dy Freaking Doo.  

Well, the Wings played Datsyuk and Zetterberg from 2003 through 2007, didn't they?  How'd that work for us?  Oh yeah, they got experience, learned from losing and eventually lead the team to a Stanley Cup.  Yzerman and Fedorov were both criticized early in their careers for not "showing up".  It takes some players longer than others, especially Europeans due to longer season, smaller ice surface and more physical play.  I'm not ready to discard Nyquist, Tatar or Pulkkinen.  The team obviously doesn't have the depth that they once did because of the salary cap and lower draft picks.  The league is set up for parity and not dynasties.  


Another thing that seems to be overlooked is that the Wings used to be able to get those late round finds in Europe because of Hakan Andersson.  Unfortunately, his success also means he's not a secret anymore.   He can't anonymously scout some of the diamonds in the rough like he used to.  


It's also a must in the salary cap era to bring in young talent.  It's not possible to pay a team full of veterans. I find it ironic that two or three years ago, Holland and Babcock were highly criticized for bringing playing the old, slow, tired veterans.  Now they're playing the young players and are getting criticized for that, too.  


With the "home team" having the advantage with UFAs and the restrictions in becoming a UFA, there just isn't much quality out there, but the prices are going higher.  


There's no way to know if the prospects are more than that unless they are in the lineup.  I'd rather lose in the first round with Tatar, Nyquist and Marchenko and at least have them getting the experience than a bunch of old, slow washed up veterans.  


No team in any sport can compete for a championship every year in the modern era.  

#2605463 Who is the coach next season?

Posted by haroldsnepsts on 01 May 2015 - 04:21 PM


If that's really the case, then Mike Babcock isn't as great as everyone makes him out to be.  Lots of teams win Cups without a Zetterberg or a Datsyuk.  Joel Quenneville never had a 90+ point, two way, superstar.  Neither did Darryl Sutter.  Neither of them had a Lidstrom either. 


I sure hope that Babcock has more faith in his coaching ability than that.  Because if he really thinks he can't win without a Datsyuk or Zetterberg, then he absolutely sucks. 


Lots of teams? Like who? 


The first one I can kind of think of is Carolina.  And they at least had Staal.


Quenneville had an 88 point player in Kane, a 68 point great two way forward in Toews, and a Norris winning defenseman in Keith.  And Hossa.  So he had three superstar forwards and a great #1 d-man.  Quenneville hadn't been to the Cup finals until he coached a team with that talent.


Sutter didn't win the Cup until he had Kopitar, Doughty, Quick, along with Brown, Richards and Carter.  Sutter had several great forwards, a great #1 d-man, and a great playoff goaltender.


Are you really saying those two teams won the Cup without players of the calibre of Datsyuk and Zetterberg?

#2605565 At What Point Does Holland Deserve Blame?

Posted by lomekian on 02 May 2015 - 10:22 AM

Comparing Z & D to Nyquist and Tatar is not helping anyone.


Zetterberg took his great leap forward at the age of 19/20, and by 22 was a more complete player than either of our new kids, and came straight to the NHL on a stacked roster.

Similar with Dats, who arrived with less hurrah, but his team-mates (especially one Brett Hull) were very vocal in saying that he would be a star.


Of course, both had the advantage of being able to develop under the radar to a degree due to the fact that that roster was bolstered by 6 guys who finished with comfortably over 1000 points, and Larionov who would have done had he been allowed over here before he was. And Chelli. And the grind line. And Homer. Apart from the bottom two pairing on D and in net  that was as good a roster as any of us have seen. I would imagine, if Tats and Nike were 3rd liners on a stacked outfit, the transition would be easier.


But ultimately anyone hoping our new euro kids will match the twins is only making a rod for their backs. As I've said elsewhere, if you want a comparison, they are basically slightly more talented versions of Slava Kozlov without the same playoff touch. Very good complimentary players who are unlikely to ever be core stars. But for a mid 2nd and a 5th, that's already far more than this organisation has the right to expect.

#2605534 At What Point Does Holland Deserve Blame?

Posted by kickazz on 02 May 2015 - 01:02 AM


While I don't disagree with your logic, I will say this.  Tatar and Nyquist have outperformed Datsyuk and Zetterberg (both regular season and playoffs) at similar points in their careers.  Dats and Z weren't very good in the playoffs at all during their first few years.  And they were about the same ages when they came into the league (arguably both with MORE experience than Nyquist or Tats). 


I agree, there's nothing to guarantee that either of these guys will be stars.  But based on the information we have, and observation and comparison to our last two stars, I don't think it's out of the question either.  At the very least it's premature to think these two guys are don't improving given their respective ages and experience levels.  Consistent 65-70 point seasons is not out of the question for either of them.  Which isn't super star talent, but isn't anything to scoff at either. 



Nyquist in 4 seasons -


Season: 179 Games played - 115 points. PPG 0.64

Playoffs: 30 Games played - 7 points PPG 0.23


Zetterberg in 4 seasons - 

Season: 280 Games played - 240 points. PPG 0.85

Playoffs: 40 Games played - 25 points PPG 0.625


Statistically, Zetterberg was better in his first 4 seasons in both playoffs and in regular season than Nyquist.


Datsyuk in 4 seasons - 

Season: 284 Games played - 241 points. PPG 0.85

Playoffs: 42 Games played - 21 points PPG 0.5



Datsyuk had the same exact Point per game ratio in his first 4 seasons as Zetterberg  and still higher than Nyquist in his first four seasons. Datsyuk's playoff numbers were inferior to Zetterberg's in his first 4 seasons but it was still better than Nyquists.


Can't look at Tatar's number's quiet yet as he's only played 2 legitimate seasons and playoffs. 


Both Zetterberg and Datsyuk also killed penalties and had more responsibilities than Tatar and Nyquist did (or ever will, they simply are not even close to being as good defensively as the other two were). 

#2605462 At What Point Does Holland Deserve Blame?

Posted by haroldsnepsts on 01 May 2015 - 04:10 PM


Exactly. No one knew  s***  about Datsyuk in 2002 other than he had great hands. If you had told me after the cup run in 02 that Datsyuk would go on to score almost 100 points in a season and win a bazillion Selkes I wouldn't have believed it.


Hell, Holland nearly traded him for Scott Gomez.


I may have been influenced by the number on the back of the sweater but initially I thought Datsyuk would be like Slava Kozlov.  A guy with great hands and some nifty moves who could be a great supporting piece but not one of the main guys.  Man was I wrong. 


That being said I don't think we have a Datsyuk or Zetterberg in Nyquist or Tatar, but I'd love to be wrong again. 

#2605195 Who is the coach next season?

Posted by lomekian on 30 April 2015 - 09:19 PM


I agree.  All these great young players people raved about for years turned out to be nothing more than serviceable players who aren't that useful in big games.  Smith is not special.  Tatar and Nyquist aren't special.  


Mrazek may be special but a good young goalie is hardly an anomaly in today's league.  Besides, he can't score goals or play defense.    


I just hope people are right about Mantha and Larkin.  

To be fair, even when the hype was it its greatest, Smith was projected as top-4 guy with the ability to put up 30-40 points, which might not be a stretch if he actually got any PP time, and in a more run-and-gun (and probably less successful) team, i think he'd produce more.


Same with Tatar and Nyquist...for a long time they were seen as possible 2/3 line guys, and it was only really the goose's goal output last year that gave anyone genuine hope beyond that.  Certainly RWC (RIP) managed to predict most of the kids that have come through remarkably well, such as Howard being a solid but not brilliant starter, Marchenko being a good 5-6 guy and Sheahan being a 2/3 Center. These are the Kozlovs of old rather than the Federovs...very good players who are ultimately expendable in a good trade. 


The only real disappointments regarding serious projections of prospects I read were Kindl, Grigorenko and Emmerton. Kindl has all the skill to be a top 4 guy, but sadly none of the calm under pressure, fortitude or physical courage. Grigs never got back after the crash and underestimated what it took to make the NHL. Emmerton was only ever ok at a lot of things, without being NHL standard at anything.


Re the coaching issue, Bab's is clearly an excellent coach as squeezing a lot of not much, but too many of our current younger players and potential assets would be better suited to a different system. So either the roster needs some major re-shaping or a new coach may be for the best. Certainly we will not maximise Smith, Kindl, Weiss, Pulks, Nyquist, Tatar in Babcock's systems. 


If he stays, he's a good enough coach to keep this team going, and the kids 2-3 years away are much more to his taste. If he leaves, some of the current roster may flourish, but overall results may suffer a little.

#2604943 Who is the coach next season?

Posted by DSM on 30 April 2015 - 10:08 AM

Pull a mulligan on the Dave Lewis years and bring in Barry Smith.

#2604900 Who is the coach next season?

Posted by greenrebellion on 30 April 2015 - 08:12 AM

Without Babcock this season, we miss the playoffs imo.  Team's outperform their true talent when Babcock is coaching.  Wouldn't be surprised if the Wings streak ended next season without him.

#2604628 Who is the coach next season?

Posted by GMRwings1983 on 29 April 2015 - 09:54 PM

Blashill, with Lidstrom and Cleary as assistant coaches.  

#2605035 Things you would like to see for 2015-16 Season

Posted by joesuffP on 30 April 2015 - 01:06 PM

Dekeseyer needs to work on his point shot. There's no reason why he can't put pucks on net with his frame and hockey IQ. Not having anybody on the blueline that can get pucks on goal is a massive team weakness

#2605259 Sigh, having a relapse of irritation

Posted by GMRwings1983 on 01 May 2015 - 08:38 AM

There's a thin line between winning and losing sometime.  I don't think it's a coincidence, though, that we ended up on the wrong side of that line.  We're just lacking that something extra right now to win this kind of game.


Too many squandered chances in the first two periods.  

#2605104 At What Point Does Holland Deserve Blame?

Posted by romagoth on 30 April 2015 - 03:12 PM

22? Do you even know how many teams make the playoffs and are in the NHL?

Yeah, see my other post where I responded to a correction to that number. Oh, and they weren't being snarky. Thanks.


How do you define "competitive"?  Making the playoffs every year and losing in the early round?


If so, then I agree that we're competitive.


Since when do we need to measure team success against Edmonton and Buffalo?   

I would say that yes, making the playoffs every year IS defined as competitive. I have never heard of a sports franchise that wins championships every year, especially in this day of parity in pro sports.

#2605008 At What Point Does Holland Deserve Blame?

Posted by Nightfall on 30 April 2015 - 12:16 PM


The past was a long time ago.  Let it go.  


Wow, so our cup back in 08 and cup finals appearance in 09 was a "long time ago"?  Man, I wonder how Toronto feels with their last cup win.  Or Edmonton for that matter.  Heck, lets ask the Rangers how they feel since their last cup.

This really does show the level of entitlement that Wings fans have grown accustomed to over the course of the last 25 years.  Most teams have bandwagon fans.  The Wings have achieved a level of greatness where the bandwagon effect hasn't been measured because we have been good for so freaking long.


Now we are looking at Holland deserving blame for making the playoffs and not getting past the 2nd round since making it to the finals in 09.  When I see this attitude, I just shake my head in disbelief.  Is this really what some Wings fans have deteriorated to?  The salary cap era has made the playing field level.  No team is a slam dunk for a championship anymore. 


I will say this much.  Any new GM that comes in may have successes in some areas, but failures in others.  No GM is going to hit it out of the park on everything they do.  So while a new GM may have landed Parise and Suter for Detroit, he may have not gotten Dekeyser and wouldn't have gotten Hossa either because he wouldn't have had the money to get them all. 


I get it, Wings fans want a championship.  Its championship or bust mentality that really has to change though.  Only 1 team gets to win the Stanley Cup every year, and the favorite doesn't win it much of the time.  The sooner that we all realize that the Wings are just one of 16 teams in the playoffs and things have to go right for the team that wins it, the better off we will be.

#2605002 At What Point Does Holland Deserve Blame?

Posted by romagoth on 30 April 2015 - 12:12 PM

New to this board but been following it for awhile now.


I just can't understand the amount of hyperbole from some people regarding Holland. We are in an age of absolute parity in the NHL, this isn't the 50's and 60's when Montreal won 5 straight Cups. Making the playoffs is the goal now, because as we have seen anything can happen once the playoffs start (just look at the Kings last year). The days of winning the president's trophy and rolling through the playoffs year after year are over. Holland has made mistakes but he has still done a remarkable job with what he has been given.

So what, if we made the playoffs for 24 consecutive seasons (you don't get a trophy for it). Its not about making it to the playoffs, it's what you do in the playoffs that matters.

Go ahead and tell that to the 22 teams that didn't make the playoffs this year. I am thankful for our playoff streak, it gives me more Wings hockey into the spring/early summer while other fans are watching....baseball.