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Internet.Unknown

Member Since 11 Nov 2007
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#2534892 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by DickieDunn on 24 August 2014 - 03:04 PM

You need good scouting and proper development in order to get value from your draft picks, as well as a solid plan (looking at you, Oilers), but a high percentage of the elite players come from the top half of the first round.  Last year's top 8 scorers were first round picks, 3 first overall, a 2nd, a 5th, then 19th, 22nd, and 28th.  Looking at the top 30 scorers, only 6 were taken outside of the first round, and 18 of the 30 were top 10 picks.  Looking at defensemen by TOI/gm, 12 of the top 30 were first rounders, and 7 were taken in the second.  Given that 18 year old defensemen are harder to project, that makes sense, but it still shows that you're far more likely to get a #1 defenseman in the first round than you are in any other round.


I remember when z and d would never turn into Stevie and feds...

 

They didn't.  Yzerman and Fedorov were better players.




#2534502 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by number9 on 18 August 2014 - 03:27 PM

 

Ehrhoff, Niskanen are a big deal because they would have fixed an ever increasing hole since Lidas left.

 

Holland and some fans need to realize the time where players would come here for less are over. The Wings nowadays are just one of the teams asking for their service and if the money isn't comparable or hence better they won't sign. Overpayment and taking risks are part of a  GMs job, UFA is also known as overpayment day but guess what ? I would have given Suter, Parise even 15 years if it means we are getting to see another cup for Mr. I, Pasha and Z after they've done so much for this former TOP destination in the NHL.

 

Whats the point of having capsapce if the top guys aren't hitting UFA anymore or you aren't going to use it t o your  advantage ? Add to that it's not like the capspace has been used wisely this off-season either, overpayment for 2 players and third on the cusp of getting re-signed which doesn't leave a lot for a local hero (Danny D) is that smart cap management ? I don't think so.

 

Also Holland didn't take a risks and still lost a trades by a landslide (Poilé absolutely schooled him) so losing a big trade is much better than getting schooled by another gm, as did Yzerman two years ago..

 

As for McDavid the competition is fierce and tough you need to outtank: Buffalo, Florida, Winnipeg, Edmonton, New York, Calgary and maybe even Phoenix but keep in mind the second pick is also a great one Eichel will be a star in this league too.

 

There is about 0% chance we pick in the top 5, and a very small chance that we even pick in the top 10... but keep dreaming




#2534486 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by Fred_Bear on 18 August 2014 - 01:19 PM

 

To preface my own point, none of us are actually in the room when an offer is made. So other then hearing rumors and speculation, none of know for sure what was offered or what was turned down.

 

Rumor has it that Holland did try to sign some of these UFA's, but once the term/$ amount got ridiculous with the exception of Suter he walked away which I am personally extremely thankful for, even in the case of Suter (no thank you 14 years).

 

Also, I don't get why people speak as if Holland hasn't gotten a UFA in years. The fact that he didn't sign Boyle, Niskanen, or Erhoff this season is not a big deal, and each player had his own reason of going where they did. Last year the top UFA's were LeCavalier, Iginla, Alfie, Fillpulla, Weiss, and Clarkson, and he signed Alfie and Weiss two of the biggest out there. I'm sure some people are reading this saying "you're saying those are big names lol" to which I respond "you're right, buts that free agency now". This years class was "headlined" by Niskanen and Stasny, middle of the road to good players being overpaid to contracts that teams are going to be looking to buy-out or trade away in a couple years (In the case of LeCavalier it didnt even take 1 full season). Unless you are giving a vet a couple years, anyone at the top of a UFA class is going to be overpaid.

 

I understand that nobody is in the room, but you can't give the guy a pass on the bad because of it and only 'see' the good when someone signs. Ultimately, Holland's track record in FA signings isn't that good the last several years.

 

List of Holland's big signings (~$2M+/year) since the last Cup:

08-09 - Marian Hossa (1yr - not re-signed)

09-10 - None

10-11 - None

11-12 - Ian White (2yrs - not re-signed)

12-13 - Jordin Tootoo (3yrs - compliance buy-out)

12-13 - Carlo Colaiacovo (2yrs - compliance buy-out)

13-14 - Daniel Alfredsson (1yr - not re-signed as yet)

13-14 - Stephen Weiss (5yrs - played 26 games and scored 4 pts in year 1)

14-15 - Kyle Quincey (2yrs for a player Detroit was ready to walk away from)

 

The Suter/Parise snub was at least 'understandable' given the same money/term from Minnesota and the connection the players felt. Having Niskanen, Boyle, and Erhoff walk away from potentially more money in Detroit (in some reports) is more concerning. The fault isn't all on Holland, for sure, but top management should be looking in the mirror and trying to determine how to get better regardless of where you lay blame.

 

And, as someone else points out, FA isn't the only key to success. You have to draft well, too. So how many top-6 forwards or top-4 defensemen has Holland picked up in the last six-seven drafts?

 

2008-09 - Gustav Nyquist

2009-10 - Tomas Tatar (maybe)

2010-11 - None

2011-12 - None

2012-13 - None

2013-14 - Anthony Mantha (projected)

 

Drafts are much harder to judge especially for a draft-and-develop team like Detroit. The Wings do have a couple kids who still project well, too. But a lot don't. They are bottom-six / bottom pair grinders. It's drafting by a team/GM which relies on supplementing his home-grown talent with pick-of-the-litter FAs. You can't draft grinders and then not come through on the FAs...

 

The Wings haven't been a team which settles for 'serviceable' over the past few years. Is that what Detroit is becoming? 




#2534418 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by joshy207 on 17 August 2014 - 12:14 PM

"Tanking" implies losing on purpose.  Whether it's players underperforming, coaches using the wrong players or strategies, or management making moves to make the team worse, it's done with the intent of finishing lower in the standings and getting a higher draft pick.  Draft lotteries were invented to reduce the chances of this strategy working.  It was done more often in other sports, where high draft picks almost always become impact players right away.  The Indianapolis Colts' "Suck for Luck" season is one of the most recent examples.

The Red Wings did not tank to get Steve Yzerman, and there are two obvious reasons why: 1, the Wings had been terrible for almost two decades, making the playoffs twice in 17 years and only winning one series.  They didn't lose on purpose in "82-'83, they just couldn't win.  2, the Wings were heavily targeting local product Pat LaFontaine with the #4 pick, but he went #3 to the Islanders.  Yzerman was the consolation prize.


 

 

They didn't tank. They tried but went through a drought anyway. The whole notion of tanking is mostly a cap era phenomenon anyway. Therefore it's arrogant of you to just assume the Wings tanked the team in order to get a guy like Yzerman when you weren't even there. Because that's not what happened, and Stevie, even though he's heralded as such, was not the savior of this organization. He very well could have been the first coming of John Tavares had Wings not played their cards almost perfectly.

 

In regards to your above statements. Hindsight is 20/20. Just because we didn't win a cup those years doesn't mean the wings couldn't have. And the organization as well as most of us believed, and still do believe, they had a fair shot. Playing older vets kept younger players, like Nyquist, in the minors to build their confidence and develop their game better than they would being rushed into the NHL. Since vets, like you said, got essentially the same points that a rookie would have, there was more good done than harm.

 

I'm glad you're well-rounded in most sports. It means you obviously know that most hockey players aren't normally ready until 24, 26, or sometimes even 27, unlike most American sports where the ready-age is between 18 and 22. This organization is going to continue sheltering prospects as best they can until they hit those years despite anyone's impatient clamoring. Aside from the rare few who can truly squeak in at an earlier age.

 

Also, Wings players have routinely expressed their pleasure with Ken always putting together a veteran team. 

 

Tanking has been around for much longer than salary caps.  I think it's tougher to do today, between the cap and roster/player movement limitations.

 

Also, I think your "ready age" numbers are considerably off.  http://www.sbnation....es-age-analysis




#2533911 Predictions for the DRW 2014-15 Season!

Posted by rick zombo on 08 August 2014 - 10:36 AM

 

I wish I could "like" this 2,000 times.  Definitely my favorite post in a good long time.  Touche my man.  Touche. 

 

You could start by liking it 1 time. ;)




#2533880 Predictions for the DRW 2014-15 Season!

Posted by DeGraa55 on 07 August 2014 - 10:11 PM

How is holland trying to win? Not letting Tatar and nyquist get their chance when they deserve it? Continues to bring back ok broken down players who provide little to nothing.


I personally dot have a problem with rebuilding or go balls in to win. But holland is just sitting on the fence doing a little of both and thats what bothers me most.


#2533845 Predictions for the DRW 2014-15 Season!

Posted by kipwinger on 07 August 2014 - 11:27 AM

 

I don’t believe the Wings are not trying, I believe they are not willing to jeopardize their future to win now. They could trade the kids and be better in 2014, but that would hurt their bright future. They could make made a bigger splash in free agency, but then that would require signing someone to a bad contract that would restrict them cap wise down the road, which could result in them losing one of the kids 3 years from now. A few perfect examples of this is Toronto signing David Clarkson, leafs fans got a “big signing” a year ago, but that “big signing” ended up being a dud, and now they have a cap hit of 5.25million until 2021. Washington signed Niskanen to a 7 year deal with a cap hit of 5.75 million, the guy had 1 good year, very very strong possibility this blows up in their face at some point. Even the Suter signing a few years ago by Minnesota, I’m glad Detroit didn’t sign him. Minnesota now has a cap hit of 7,538,462 until 2025. Suter is 29 right now with 11 years left. If he regresses in lets say 3 years, this contract will severely handcuff them for another 8 years!

 

I’m not saying that you are in any way implying that the Wings should have made any of the above moves, I’m just using those examples to make my point. My point being simply that making a move to make you better “now” is not always what is best move for the franchise as whole. If this was pre-cap and they make a bad UFA signing, all that does is hurt them financially, now a days in can result in you having to lose very good players down the road because you cant fit them under the cap.

 

Feel free to think what you want, I'm not here to convince you.  I'm just here to say that fans expectations aren't "unrealistic" because the organization purportedly has the same expectations.

 

I'm sick of this whole "Red Wings fans are spoiled with success" argument.  You're supposed to want your team to compete for the championship every year.  You're also supposed to be bent out of shape when you don't think your team IS competitive.  That's what being a fan is all about.  Not sitting around casually observing the team and then clapping at the end of the game.  Ho hum. 




#2533675 Predictions for the DRW 2014-15 Season!

Posted by number9 on 04 August 2014 - 09:42 AM

Wow, this thread got carried away pretty quickly didn't it?  Seems like there's got to be a way to say what you're trying to say, without being so matadorish.  I'll take a stab at it.
 
DeGraa55:  I think the Wings will be just as bad as last year because we made no noticeable acquisitions to a team which has underwhelmed for 5 straight post seasons.  Plus, I think injuries will be a problem again because older players (e.g. Dats, Z, Franzen, Knonwall, etc.) tend to get injured MORE and not less over time. 
 
Number9:  I think the Wings will be better than last year because while we made no noticeable acquisitions, our young player were REALLY good last year and should be better this year.  And while injuries may be a problem again a year from now, they couldn't possibly be as bad as last year because that was just insane.  Plus, there's no way Jimmy will be that bad again right?  He's never been that bad his entire career.  We've got nowhere to go but up.
 
 
All better. 

I miss the days of our biggest problem being whether or not Filppula and Hudler were going to shoot.

*sigh*


#2533672 Predictions for the DRW 2014-15 Season!

Posted by kipwinger on 04 August 2014 - 09:09 AM

Wow, this thread got carried away pretty quickly didn't it?  Seems like there's got to be a way to say what you're trying to say, without being so matadorish.  I'll take a stab at it.

 

DeGraa55:  I think the Wings will be just as bad as last year because we made no noticeable acquisitions to a team which has underwhelmed for 5 straight post seasons.  Plus, I think injuries will be a problem again because older players (e.g. Dats, Z, Franzen, Knonwall, etc.) tend to get injured MORE and not less over time. 

 

Number9:  I think the Wings will be better than last year because while we made no noticeable acquisitions, our young player were REALLY good last year and should be better this year.  And while injuries may be a problem again a year from now, they couldn't possibly be as bad as last year because that was just insane.  Plus, there's no way Jimmy will be that bad again right?  He's never been that bad his entire career.  We've got nowhere to go but up.

 

 

All better. 




#2533527 Predictions for the DRW 2014-15 Season!

Posted by Z Winged Dangler on 02 August 2014 - 11:55 AM

 

I think you could also make a case for the Lightning, Canadiens, Blue Jackets, Avalanche.

Tampa is definitely the best on that list.  They'll be fun to watch for sure.  I'll cheer for them more cause Stevie Y built them.




#2533655 Who is YOUR most under-appreciated/unsung Red Wing?

Posted by number9 on 03 August 2014 - 09:00 PM

In my mind Konstantinov would have been legendary had that tragedy not occurred.


#2533294 Predictions for the DRW 2014-15 Season!

Posted by hillbillywingsfan on 29 July 2014 - 01:05 PM

My prediction Dats and Z both stay hurt all season after a total meltdown failure this season where we end up last place in all of the league. The whole plan to make Detroit a better place is abandoned by Mr I and he and the wings are moved to Vegas...But I totally hope I'm wrong......... :ninja:

 

My real prediction....I think...I hope we can stay healthy. I think if we do like what was said on a previous post we end up in the middle of the east getting into the playoffs a bit easier. I still don't think we are  there yet to even consider competing for the cup but hey who am I. I hope they totally surprise me and we win it all.




#2533235 Tatar Signs 3 Year Deal $2.75 mill AAV

Posted by LeftWinger on 28 July 2014 - 10:34 PM

ok, ok, no more Diesel... :lol:

 

I said its too much so he better get 20-30 goals to prove he is worth it. If he never gets 20 then its way over payment. Closer to 30 and he is worth it for sure! In the end I am glad he is still a Red Wing! Go Tatar!




#2533227 Tatar Signs 3 Year Deal $2.75 mill AAV

Posted by number9 on 28 July 2014 - 09:32 PM

too much money. He best get 25-30 goals in each of his years...this is the reason the salary cap was put in place. There is no way a sub twenty goal scoring RFA should be anywhere near this amount. But it is Ken Holland. He hasn't changed anything in his approach. This means Diesel will get at least $4M.


Also I still hate the "diesel" nickname


#2533122 Predictions for the DRW 2014-15 Season!

Posted by marcaractac on 28 July 2014 - 12:31 PM

1. Weiss will make a lot of people eat crow by having a 50+ point season

2. Hank will have a career year.

3. Howard will have a bounce back season.

4. The team makes the playoffs with a lot less stress than the past 2 seasons. 

5. A forward we'll hate to see go will be traded to bring in a dman that we need.

6. Many Wings fans will finally see that the team is going in the right direction.