Holland: Wings won't deal unless prices come down

[Lou_Siffer 1]

Why is it worthless, do you ask? Because Holland's actions in the offseasons are in the past. Nobody can go back and change what happened. Thus, criticizing those actions in the context of today's events reaches the pinnacle of worthlessness. Worse, in addition to accomplishing nothing, it creates a negative air.

Of course, it might not seem so worthless to you if destructive complaining makes you feel better somehow--if that's the case, then just register the complaints with a wall.

Then will you admit, if the Wings fail at the deadline, that Holland made a major blunder in the offseason? I dont believe Holland should be given credit for not overpaying now, which many are doing, because the inactivity in the offseason is what led the Wings to the point of having to overpay. He gets no kudos for that. Get it?

[Guest Crymson]

annalyzing and criticizing the past are the only ways we learn anything. you, as a science major, should know that. it is important to criticize last summer as it is a way to better prepare for next summer. hopefully holland now realizes you can't necessarily wait for the trade deadline like you could before the lock-out. needs need to be better met in the off-season post-lockout.

* grammer

Disagree. Analysis and criticism are only useful if they carry a constructive purpose. Here, they do not, because we have absolutely no control over Holland's actions this postseason. Regardless, in reality--and by default--what some here have devolved to is simple finger-pointing and complaining.

Then will you admit, if the Wings fail at the deadline, that Holland made a major blunder in the offseason? I dont believe Holland should be given credit for not overpaying now, which many are doing, because the inactivity in the offseason is what led the Wings to the point of having to overpay. He gets no kudos for that. Get it?

What do I care about deciding if Holland made a blunder in the offseason? That's in the past, and returning to it in order to make judgments will not help me at all here in the present. This is why I refer to such behaviors as worthless.

Edited February 24, 2007 by Crymson

[WhiteLightning91 105]

Good for Holland. I like to see him playing hardball. No reason to throw away a 1st rounder and a prospect this season since the guys available at the deadline are not going to turn us into contenders. Even if we got both Guerin and Tkachuk, I still do not see us as Stanley Cup contenders.

As for those of you who are bringing up the past off-season...

Dumont was in talks with Holland during the offseason, but he was looking for more money than he was worth. Signing someone for $2.5 Million who does not address our toughness/grit issues is assanine.

As for Guerin (God, I can't believe some people will not let this go!!!!) yes, we all know that we could've gotten him in the offseason. WE GET IT!!! The fact remains that he was looking for too much money after coming off a horrendous season in Dallas. Can you blame Kenny? It was too much of a risk, especially since we were still trying to get Shanahan signed.

God. I can't wait until next season to see if Bertuzzi has a Guerin-type season next year and all you babies come back on this board saying "Oh my lord, look what we missed out on again....God Dammit Kenny."

I can't even believe that some idiot even brought up Sykora. Don't even get me started on why in the hell we do not need that guy on our team...

for Kenny.

Edited February 24, 2007 by WhiteLightning91

[SwedeLundin77 460]

Holland would not have been able to sign the type of player that this team needs last offseason. Crymson is right, the psat is the past, it's over. Besides, your arguments for Guerin, Sykora, and Dumont don't solve any problems, and if we had those players, there is no guarantee we would be that much better. Holland did not make any major signings in the offseason - result = 39-16-7 record (2nd best in the league). This is a different team than last season, we may be missing some pieces likea big gritty scoring winger, but we have more youth this year, and we've seen with teams like Edmonton last season and Pisani, that youth can step up. We have 2 guys that have the potential to blow up in Hudler and Filppula. I am not counting on this that much, but anything is possible.

And i'm pretty sure Holland will make at least one move before the deadline.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

What do I care about deciding if Holland made a blunder in the offseason? That's in the past, and returning to it in order to make judgments will not help me at all here in the present. This is why I refer to such behaviors as worthless.

Because he might have had the chance of bettering this team, this year's roster, already and they might not have had to worry about getting a guy/two like they might want now.

Forgetting the past alltogether is never going to happen.

I'm not Holland's biggest fan, but I don't think he's the second coming of Satan either like osme here. He can't be faulted right now if asking prices for players all across 30 teams are too high.

If he might have gotten a player like he's coveting now in the offseason, he might not have to worry about getting the right guy now as much.

Somehow though I think this is going to be twisted around into me complaining or something...

Edited February 24, 2007 by SouthernWingsFan

[datsyukismyfriend 4]

Disagree. Analysis and criticism are only useful if they carry a constructive purpose. Here, they do not, because we have absolutely no control over Holland's actions this postseason. Regardless, in reality--and by default--what some here have devolved to is simple finger-pointing and complaining.

What do I care about deciding if Holland made a blunder in the offseason? That's in the past, and returning to it in order to make judgments will not help me at all here in the present. This is why I refer to such behaviors as worthless.

so, according to this paradigm, we have no foundation for criticism as criticism by necessity is invariably directed towards passed circumstances. a past which we cannot change and consequently should refrain from commenting on. that being so, what exactly can we talk about on this site?

[Wings_Dynasty 267]

The fact is that Holland is going to do what is best without jeopardizing the future. He masy pull off a legitimate trade like he's done with Lang and Cheli and go after some one with multiple years left on their contract.

Not every option is a rental player. Maybe the rental players are the reason the prices he's seen are so bad.

[johnnyoski 0]

After last year's playoffs I think the team's biggest needs were D and goaltender. Holland addressed those needs with Hasek and Markov.

I think we were all counting on more production from Lang and Williams and therefore passed on overpaying for a winger that could be on his last leg. Guerin has obviously had a great year so his stock has soared and in hindsight it looks bad that we didn't sign him in the offseason. But he looked HORRIBLE last season.

Those of you who are so quick to fault Holland had better lump Bowman, Yzerman, Nill and Devellano into that thought because they all confer on any deal before it is made.

[SwedeLundin77 460]

After last year's playoffs I think the team's biggest needs were D and goaltender. Holland addressed those needs with Hasek and Markov.

I think we were all counting on more production from Lang and Williams and therefore passed on overpaying for a winger that could be on his last leg. Guerin has obviously had a great year so his stock has soared and in hindsight it looks bad that we didn't sign him in the offseason. But he looked HORRIBLE last season.

Those of you who are so quick to fault Holland had better lump Bowman, Yzerman, Nill and Devellano into that thought because they all confer on any deal before it is made.

Spot on.

[Kp-Wings 3]

Why are we still on this thing with not signing Guerin last summer? He was horrible in Dallas, and nobody wanted him. Did you see a big line of teams calling him up with offers? Unless there's something that I don't know, then no. The only team that was willing to give him what he wanted was St. Louis, who finished dead last, and were in need of players after Dean McCammond stated he did not want to play for the Blues anymore. That, combined with their already too many rookies and not enough veteran leadership, meant St. Louis needed someone like Guerin, so they gave him what he wanted. He suprised everyone by having such a good season, and because St. Louis is not going to make the playoffs, his name is mentioned as a good suiter for a playoff team. But stop saying Holland should have went out and signed Guerin in the offseason. What if he would have came here and bombed out compleatly? Then what? We'd be stuck with him, and Holland would have been an idiot for signing. Nobody could have predicted he'd have this good of a season. While I don't always agree with what Holland does, I do agree with him not signing Guerin back then. If Guerin would have came here and sucked, we would be stuck with his large contract and there's nothing we could have done. It's over and done with, so let it go.

[FinWing 26]

Hindsight, hindsight, hindsight...

How much time is there left exactly? ~3 days of course but I'm sure someone has his/her countdown clock running.

It's starting to feel like Christmas!

[Flip-check 6]

Disagree. Analysis and criticism are only useful if they carry a constructive purpose. Here, they do not, because we have absolutely no control over Holland's actions this postseason. Regardless, in reality--and by default--what some here have devolved to is simple finger-pointing and complaining.

Actually, I'd say that the people who are pointing out some faults and the ones who aren't whining about it do carry a constructive purpose. Primarily because there does bear a lesson to learn yet for next season: don't wait until the last minute for deals to crop up. -Do- keep your eyes open, but get your important needs met first earlier on.

And even aside from our loss of Shanny, had we kept him? We'd still majorly benefit from one or two guys who can fill out a more physical role. So his late sayonara to us matters a lot less. He wasn't our end-all to representing our team's toughness, and it'd be silly to let that be the case. Kenny knows what he's doing right now, and he knows his job. And building team toughness is a longer and different project than trades over one or even two years can ever solve. However, that doesn't mean that there isn't a lesson to learn here: often the best learners are those whose minds have a larger field of assessing "what is constructive." This sets them apart from the people who hastily say 'there is nothing here to think on.'

[Barrie 900]

I'm glad Kenny has his limits. There's no point in trading away a 1st and Hudler or Filppula for an over the hill UFA.

I don't think we have to win the Cup this year. We're set for a while with our young talent. I don't want to ruin the future for a Tkachuk or Guerin, it's not worth it.

[HockeyCrazy3033 168]

He's pretty much right on. Prices are very ridiculous and GM's are STUPID if they think anyone is going give what they are asking for.

That being said, I still believe the Wings will make a big trade..but they won't overpay.

[Flip-check 6]

He's pretty much right on. Prices are very ridiculous and GM's are STUPID if they think anyone is going give what they are asking for.

That being said, I still believe the Wings will make a big trade..but they won't overpay.

I've got that feeling too.. but yeah, and at this point, I'm not aware of anyone on the market that's worth dumping one of our better young guys. I'm betting if Kenny picks someone up it'll be a name we don't recognize though.

Out on the ice I don't know too much about Rex because he hasn't stood out to me, but I know Flip's gold waiting to turn like.. Sonic with all seven chaos emeralds. I'm pretty much preparing that this may be the team we go to war with.

[Guest Crymson]

can't change the past, but I can definitely say that the strategy of putting your problems in the backburner has been a bad one. He needs to learn that slightly overpaying for someone in the summer is the way to go, than giving up high picks/young players at the deadline

By the time Shanahan decided to hit the road, a large chunk of available UFAs had signed, while others were deep in contract talks with other teams. The money set aside for Shanahan accounts for much of our currently free cap space. Other factors were involved this summer. Although it is very easy to look back and horridly simplify things, one only creates an illusion of the past by doing so. Rest assured that Holland did his part to make some acquisitions after Shanahan decided not to re-sign with the Wings--clearly his efforts did not succeed, and it is to his credit that he did not spend the available money on a sub-par player. At present--with how the trade deadline talks look--one might feel that Holland indeed should have splurged the money on somebody who was perhaps worth 75% of it. However, to do so would have bordered on insanity when the team was already quite good, and when all expected that a trade deadline acquisition would be much more helpful.

As SL77 very intelligently brought up, we would have been in much better shape this season had Williams not seen a terrible drop in production, and had Samuelsson not broken his foot. However, saying "in much better shape" is somewhat comical, as we are currently two points out of first place in the entire league. As compared to other teams, we have a great roster--you can credit that much to Holland. Please keep that in perspective, and give him credit for the things he does RIGHT.

Actually, I'd say that the people who are pointing out some faults and the ones who aren't whining about it do carry a constructive purpose. Primarily because there does bear a lesson to learn yet for next season: don't wait until the last minute for deals to crop up. -Do- keep your eyes open, but get your important needs met first earlier on.

And even aside from our loss of Shanny, had we kept him? We'd still majorly benefit from one or two guys who can fill out a more physical role. So his late sayonara to us matters a lot less. He wasn't our end-all to representing our team's toughness, and it'd be silly to let that be the case. Kenny knows what he's doing right now, and he knows his job. And building team toughness is a longer and different project than trades over one or even two years can ever solve. However, that doesn't mean that there isn't a lesson to learn here: often the best learners are those whose minds have a larger field of assessing "what is constructive." This sets them apart from the people who hastily say 'there is nothing here to think on.'

See the text in bold. Said comment is entirely situational. As I've said, other factors existed. Holland felt that the retention of Shanahan was important to the team. Obviously you feel otherwise. In any case, what if this trade deadline had seen--or DOES see--a MASSIVE windfall for the Wings? What would you say then?

I find utterly silly your assertion that Holland violated some cardinal rule, when in fact what is better depends entirely on the circumstances.

Again, do not doubt that Holland DID work to find players after Shanahan left. Clearly this simply did not work out, leaving us waiting for the trade deadline. Do not forget that we are currently one of the best teams in the league anyway. I hardly find this situation catastrophic, and I find such vehement attacks on Holland utterly silly given our present position.

Edited February 24, 2007 by Crymson

[MacAttack25 44]

I think we really need to make a move, but Holland is playing it smart as of right now.

[Guest ZetterBurger40]

can't change the past, but I can definitely say that the strategy of putting your problems in the backburner has been a bad one. He needs to learn that slightly overpaying for someone in the summer is the way to go, than giving up high picks/young players at the deadline

Check the standings, I'm not sure what you people are complaining about Holland for. Yeah, I would like a power forward, so would everyone else, but he has built a great team & If the Wings win the cup this year, everyone (meaning the 10 LGW posters) that doesn't like him will go back to loving him.

[Flip-check 6]

See the text in bold. Said comment is entirely situational. As I've said, other factors existed. Holland felt that the retention of Shanahan was important to the team. Obviously you feel otherwise. In any case, what if this trade deadline had seen--or DOES see--a MASSIVE windfall for the Wings? What would you say then?

Something totally different, because is there anything better than saying a team played -great- if they win a single game, but breaking the panic button if they lose? Actually, wait. I think I'd be pretty rational. Then I'd say: good job Kenny, but I still fail to see the point in waiting til February to start fitting in missing puzzle pieces.

Obviously different deals are going to arise as teams start realizing they want to drop players at the 60 game mark. However, on a team that won't have its needs met with one tough forward, inking deals in February? Not the best policy. And about Shanny... yeah, I'm going to admit not keeping tabs on how much salary space we had at that point in the summer prior to #14 hitting Manhatten, and that's the crucial point in the double interest of resigning him and keeping an eye out for someone else in addition.

If there were any players we could have traded to clear space for Shanny -and- someone else, that most assuredly would be a start. Shanny, I love the man, but he isn't a big enough puzzle piece to fill the vacant spot of grit in the Wings org.

Do not forget that we are currently one of the best teams in the league anyway. I hardly find this situation catastrophic, and I find such vehement attacks on Holland utterly silly given our present position.

Yeah, people attacking Kenny is pretty stupid. And reminding people that we're one of the best teams is wise, too, but there's still a bit of a ways to go. I feel confident about the Wings this year, but it's always with the awareness that they may get shut down, worn out, and beaten solidly to a pulp when the post-season comes. This knowledge does not alarm me, but it doesn't give me much rest, either.

[Guest Crymson]

Check the standings, I'm not sure what you people are complaining about Holland for. Yeah, I would like a power forward, so would everyone else, but he has built a great team & If the Wings win the cup this year, everyone (meaning the 10 LGW posters) that doesn't like him will go back to loving him.

[Mighty Wings 0]

By the time Shanahan decided to hit the road, a large chunk of available UFAs had signed, while others were deep in contract talks with other teams. The money set aside for Shanahan accounts for much of our currently free cap space. Other factors were involved this summer. Although it is very easy to look back and horridly simplify things, one only creates an illusion of the past by doing so. Rest assured that Holland did his part to make some acquisitions after Shanahan decided not to re-sign with the Wings--clearly his efforts did not succeed, and it is to his credit that he did not spend the available money on a sub-par player. At present--with how the trade deadline talks look--one might feel that Holland indeed should have splurged the money on somebody who was perhaps worth 75% of it. However, to do so would have bordered on insanity when the team was already quite good, and when all expected that a trade deadline acquisition would be much more helpful.

As SL77 very intelligently brought up, we would have been in much better shape this season had Williams not seen a terrible drop in production, and had Samuelsson not broken his foot. However, saying "in much better shape" is somewhat comical, as we are currently two points out of first place in the entire league. As compared to other teams, we have a great roster--you can credit that much to Holland. Please keep that in perspective, and give him credit for the things he does RIGHT.

I do give him credit when he does something well, such as the Markov signing. I thought the value of his signing was very good. The Hasek signing outta left field was a risky move, but if he could stay healthy that would be a great move as well. But after losing to edm last year, he said he wanted to add toughness/grit, and he still hasn't addressed it yet (he might before the deadline). He still needed to add a top 6 winger after shanny left, and no matter what I'm still gonna say they should've taken care of it in the summer(unless they acquire someone by tuesday). As for the standings, don't bother lookin' at em unless your goal is to win the presidents cup. If that doesn't convince you, this should give you a

Edited February 24, 2007 by Mighty Wings

[HockeyCrazy3033 168]

Something totally different, because is there anything better than saying a team played -great- if they win a single game, but breaking the panic button if they lose? Actually, wait. I think I'd be pretty rational. Then I'd say: good job Kenny, but I still fail to see the point in waiting til February to start fitting in missing puzzle pieces.

Obviously different deals are going to arise as teams start realizing they want to drop players at the 60 game mark. However, on a team that won't have its needs met with one tough forward, inking deals in February? Not the best policy. And about Shanny... yeah, I'm going to admit not keeping tabs on how much salary space we had at that point in the summer prior to #14 hitting Manhatten, and that's the crucial point in the double interest of resigning him and keeping an eye out for someone else in addition.

If there were any players we could have traded to clear space for Shanny -and- someone else, that most assuredly would be a start. Shanny, I love the man, but he isn't a big enough puzzle piece to fill the vacant spot of grit in the Wings org.

Yeah, people attacking Kenny is pretty stupid. And reminding people that we're one of the best teams is wise, too, but there's still a bit of a ways to go. I feel confident about the Wings this year, but it's always with the awareness that they may get shut down, worn out, and beaten solidly to a pulp when the post-season comes. This knowledge does not alarm me, but it doesn't give me much rest, either.

I love your avatar.

[ShanahanMan 473]

honestly, i think our chances of a trade are down to about 50/50. The Blues might not even trade their top guys if they keep winning.......i think its pretty important that the Blues lose tomorrow. I still think a small trade for someone like Nolan is fine......better then nothing

[HockeyCrazy3033 168]

honestly, i think our chances of a trade are down to about 50/50. The Blues might not even trade their top guys if they keep winning.......i think its pretty important that the Blues lose tomorrow. I still think a small trade for someone like Nolan is fine......better then nothing

Well I read that Guerin and Tkachuk have already been told they will be traded. Anyways, I just saw on the Blues forum that Manny is out with a lower body injured.

[Flip-check 6]

I love your avatar.

I knew Ozzie needed a little extra attention. Graci, HC!