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#1 Hank

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 03:35 PM

So there's a thread at HFBoards about 150 point players.
I made a comment about how Yzerman got 155 that year despite playing with relatively lesser linemates. I'm not taking anything away from Gerard Gallant as I love that dude but Paul MacLean crapped the bed in the 2nd half of that 88-89 season. I went on to explain how I thought Yzerman could have had a lot more points if he ever had a better winger or dman to work with.

So some clown comes on there saying how the fact that Stevie got 150+ points that year was no big deal because 3 other players did it that year too and that Yzerman is no better than #48 on his all time, best offensive players list.

I argued that there were 4 players that reached the 150 point plateau that season but that two of them were named Gretzky and Lemieux and the 3rd guy (Bernie Nichols) played with Wayne and got a bucket full of PP points playing with the Great One.

I then also argued that Esposito had some unbeleivable teammates the year he hit 152 pts and compared them to Yzermans. Gerard Gallant was the closest to Stevie that year with 93 points while Esposito had 3 teammates record over 100 points including one of the greatest players of all time, Bobby Orr (139 pts).

I still can't believe how some people refuse to give Stevie credit for what he was in his prime. Even that year he dislocated a vertabrae in his spine he was able to come back and nearly score 90 points in only 58 games. John Warton said that his back was so bad and he was in so much pain that he literally could barely hold his arms above his head and yet the dude went out and scored at a 112 pt pace.

This idiot at HF even had the audacity to say that Stan Makita was a better offensive player than Yzerman. What a joke! Makita was a very good player but he had Bobby Hull on his wing for most of his career. Yzerman never had a top guy playing with him like some players such as Lafontaine (Mogilny), Hull (Oates), Oates (Hull, Neely), Messier (Kurri), Esposito (Orr, Bucyk), etc.
Only Sakic and Jagr are players I would say are comparable to Yzermans' offensive skills during his prime.

I still wonder how many points or how effective Yzerman would be today if he never bashed his knee or wrecked his back. That knee and back injury was a total fluke, not some degenerative, oft injured thing like Lindros has. Even in his last season you could see that Stevie had the same vision and hands back in the day. If he had stayed healthy I have no doubt he'd still be playing today and could put up the same type of numbers that Sakic is now given the same amount of TOI and wingers.

EDIT: Sorry for the long rant, but I'm pretty fired up about it. I had the pleasure to watch Yzerman in his prime while other great players like Wayne, Mario, Sakic and Messier (among others) were in their primes, or close to it too, played. I think I'm right about YZerman's offensive skills during that time. And I know some older guys that had the privaledge of watching greats like Beleveau, Orr, Esposito, Statsny, Bobby Hull who have said that Yzerman is one of the greatest ever. Heck, Pavel Bure once said that Yzerman and Lemiuex were the two greatest hockey players he's ever seen. And that was during the same time when Hull, Messier, Sakic, Lafontaine were in their primes as well.

Edited by Hank, 19 March 2007 - 03:38 PM.


#2 NeverForgetMac25

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 03:39 PM

To me, I could care less about who racked up more points than others. For me, its all about being a complete player, something I believe Gretzky was not, and Stevie is the definition of.
It's amazing how much clarity comes when you care more about the Red Wings than any individual player.


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#3 Winged Scooter

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 03:42 PM

QUOTE(Never Forget Mac #25 @ March 19, 2007 - 04:39PM) View Post

To me, I could care less about who racked up more points than others. For me, its all about being a complete player, something I believe Gretzky was not, and Stevie is the definition of.

clap.gif well said, too bad they don't have stats that measures a player's HEART!
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#4 gowingsgo

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 03:43 PM

Steve Yzerman is the greatest Captain to ever lace em up. You dont need to argue on Steve's behalf. Anyone who knows anything about hockey respects the hell out of Steve Yzerman
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#5 NeverForgetMac25

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 03:45 PM

QUOTE(gowingsgo @ March 19, 2007 - 02:43PM) View Post

Steve Yzerman is the greatest Captain to ever lace em up. You dont need to argue on Steve's behalf. Anyone who knows anything about hockey respects the hell out of Steve Yzerman

QFT
It's amazing how much clarity comes when you care more about the Red Wings than any individual player.


"They are the best team in the world. They are a team that can just take over when they want to," Chicago's Patrick Kane said (of the Detroit Red Wings).

#6 Detroit # 1 Fan

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 03:48 PM

QUOTE(gowingsgo @ March 19, 2007 - 05:13PM) View Post

Steve Yzerman is the greatest Captain to ever lace em up. You dont need to argue on Steve's behalf. Anyone who knows anything about hockey respects the hell out of Steve Yzerman



Great Post. clap.gif

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#7 Elshupacabra

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 03:58 PM

QUOTE(gowingsgo @ March 19, 2007 - 03:43PM) View Post

Steve Yzerman is the greatest Captain to ever lace em up. You dont need to argue on Steve's behalf. Anyone who knows anything about hockey respects the hell out of Steve Yzerman


clap.gif Exactly, People who say Yzerman or Lidstrom are overated, obiviously know NOTHING about hockey they try to rag on them because they know there good, but I would bet any amount of money that 99% of those people would take Yzerman or Lidstrom in a heartbeat, you can't take it too personally

#8 superstarsingh

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 04:03 PM

It is true. Yzerman was the complete player. He also had great numbers for a guy who was as defensive as he was (after Bowman came). He also played through everything. There is one thing you cannot defend against and that one thing is courage.

#9 NeverForgetMac25

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 04:05 PM

QUOTE(superstarsingh @ March 19, 2007 - 03:03PM) View Post

It is true. Yzerman was the complete player. He also had great numbers for a guy who was as defensive as he was (after Bowman came). He also played through everything. There is one thing you cannot defend against and that one thing is courage.

Plagiarist tongue.gif
It's amazing how much clarity comes when you care more about the Red Wings than any individual player.


"They are the best team in the world. They are a team that can just take over when they want to," Chicago's Patrick Kane said (of the Detroit Red Wings).

#10 superstarsingh

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 04:07 PM

QUOTE(Never Forget Mac #25 @ March 19, 2007 - 05:05PM) View Post

Plagiarist tongue.gif

haha you caught me. Who said that? I remember it is in T-Ruff's Yzerman tribute.

#11 NeverForgetMac25

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 04:10 PM

QUOTE(superstarsingh @ March 19, 2007 - 03:07PM) View Post

haha you caught me. Who said that? I remember it is in T-Ruff's Yzerman tribute.

It was in the 2002 Championship video. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Darren Pang said it.
It's amazing how much clarity comes when you care more about the Red Wings than any individual player.


"They are the best team in the world. They are a team that can just take over when they want to," Chicago's Patrick Kane said (of the Detroit Red Wings).

#12 wingsfan979802

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 04:15 PM

when i think of yzerman i don't think about his points. when he was injured in the playoffs last year i wasn't thinking, "oh crap now we can't score." i was thinking, "oh crap the greatest leader of all time isn't there to inspire our team." some guy at our school said that yzerman doesn't do anything. meaning he doesn't get any points. i was about to just kill him.
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#13 toby91_ca

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 04:16 PM

Everyone is talking about how complete a player is and how he plays with heart, etc., etc., but I don't think that is the context of the discussion going on at the other board, from how it is described here.

I thought the poster was talking about Yzerman and his offensive abilities, this has nothing to do with how complete his game is. We are only talking about one dimension here.

I wouldn't get too worked up about this, as everyone will have different opinions. If they are way out in left field, that's one thing, but Stan Mikita, for example, won 4 scoring titles. You can argue whether or not Yzerman was better offensively than Mikita, but I wouldn't say someone is completely clueless for thinking Mikita is better offensively.

I think we'd need to understand a little more about the frustration here. If you are trying to argue that Yzerman is top 2 or 3 all time offensively, I am sorry, I would disagree as well. So it all comes down to context and where you are trying to place him on the list.

Edited by toby91_ca, 20 March 2007 - 09:31 PM.


#14 superstarsingh

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 04:17 PM

For those who have not seen the video.

Yzerman Biography Video

NFM...may I cite my quote? 02:42. laugh.gif

#15 FinWing

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 04:21 PM

QUOTE(Elshupacabra @ March 19, 2007 - 10:58PM) View Post

clap.gif Exactly, People who say Yzerman or Lidstrom are overated, obiviously know NOTHING about hockey they try to rag on them because they know there good, but I would bet any amount of money that 99% of those people would take Yzerman or Lidstrom in a heartbeat, you can't take it too personally

To me it's not even possible to overrate these gentlemen, they epitomize everything that is good about this sport. They've got the traits that everyone should look up to.

Stevie was not only a great scorer, but also a great defensive player and probably the most responsible team leader ever. Not to mention all the sacrifices he made, he would play through almost anything. And Nick is quite simply the definition of reliable, he is rock solid year after year after year. I don't know how he does it, he's unbelievable.
Thank You TeeMan

#16 Elshupacabra

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 04:23 PM

QUOTE(FinWing @ March 19, 2007 - 04:21PM) View Post

To me it's not even possible to overrate these gentlemen, they epitomize everything that is good about this sport. They've got the traits that everyone should look up to.

Stevie was not only a great scorer, but also a great defensive player and probably the most responsible team leader ever. Not to mention all the sacrifices he made, he would play through almost anything. And Nick is quite simply the definition of reliable, he is rock solid year after year after year. I don't know how he does it, he's unbelievable.


I agree with you 100%

#17 NeverForgetMac25

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 04:36 PM

QUOTE(superstarsingh @ March 19, 2007 - 03:17PM) View Post

For those who have not seen the video.

Yzerman Biography Video

NFM...may I cite my quote? 02:42. laugh.gif

Noted
It's amazing how much clarity comes when you care more about the Red Wings than any individual player.


"They are the best team in the world. They are a team that can just take over when they want to," Chicago's Patrick Kane said (of the Detroit Red Wings).

#18 TheLegend19

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 04:40 PM

QUOTE(Never Forget Mac #25 @ March 19, 2007 - 04:39PM) View Post

To me, I could care less about who racked up more points than others. For me, its all about being a complete player, something I believe Gretzky was not, and Stevie is the definition of.

Exactly. Sure, Gretzky owns all the records and glory, but if I'm correct, he never had the 'C' sewn on his sweater. Furthermore, Yzerman won the Lester Patrick Trophy for overall contribution to hockey in the United States.

That award is not on Gretzky's resume.
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#19 Heroes of Hockeytown

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 04:43 PM

QUOTE(Manny4Prez @ March 19, 2007 - 05:40PM) View Post

but if I'm correct, he never had the 'C' sewn on his sweater.

Gretzky served as captain on every team he played for in the NHL (reserve captain in New York).
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#20 toby91_ca

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 04:50 PM

QUOTE(Manny4Prez @ March 19, 2007 - 05:40PM) View Post

Exactly. Sure, Gretzky owns all the records and glory, but if I'm correct, he never had the 'C' sewn on his sweater. Furthermore, Yzerman won the Lester Patrick Trophy for overall contribution to hockey in the United States.

That award is not on Gretzky's resume.

So....I think your post is wrong in every way, unless I am losing it.

As someone already pointed out, Gretzky served as captain pretty much his whole career, unless you are arguing the C was an iron on and not sewn on tongue.gif

With respect to the Lester Patrick Trophy, Gretzky won this award in 1994.

Edited by toby91_ca, 19 March 2007 - 04:52 PM.






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