Rankings: how teams have retired numbers.

[redwinger4747 6]

I've always felt very stongly about the honor of having your number retired with a franchise should be regarded as the highest honor a player can receive with a team and it should be reserved for only the most worthy, and loyal to the franchise. Some teams hold it to that standard, others retire numbers off a whim. I will rate how well I think teams regard that honor based on numbers they have retired. 21 current teams have at least 1 retired numbers. Teams will be judged on the players who have had their number retired and players who were rightfully or wrongfully denied that honor. Although people might disagree, I don’t feel tragic deaths should merit number retirement unless that honor was deserved anyways. Unofficial retirements wont count against teams.

1. Detroit Red Wings - 6 extremely worthy players, all champions with Detroit. Illitch is right not to hang an Aurie banner.

2. New York Islanders - 6 great players, loyal to the franchise, all core to their 4 cups in 80-83.

3. Chicago Blackhawks - 5 worthy players, only Savard and Esposito weren't champions with Chicago, but they deserve the honor. The only question might be Hull’s jumb to the WHA.

4. New York Rangers – 4 players, all deserving. Although Messier only had 10 seasons there, the cup year with his leadership was very special. Leech will be a nice addition as soon as he officially retires, and they are very right NOT to hang a Gretzky banner.

5. New Jersey Devils - 2 stellar defenseman, good choices.

6. Montreal Canadiens - they have a lot, but 10 of the 12 are very well-deserving, although having 2 people up for the same number is kind of stupid. I don’t agree with Plante or Dryden for not enough years with Montreal and especially considering their plethora of legends is all the more reason to hold a very high standard for the honor. Larry Robinson and Jacques Lemaire would be good choices and should get the honor instead. But a lot of good choices nonetheless.

7. Philedelphia Flyers – 3 of 4 are strong candidates, Barry Ashbee only played 4 seasons, but all

4 were there for the cup years.

8. Boston Bruins – 10 players, I don’t like Hitchman, Esposito or Neely, but I like the others, however, quite a few didn’t win cups there.

9. Cagary Flames – pretty good choices, they were there for 8 (McDonald) and 12 (Vernon) years and importantly, the cup year.

10. Carolina Hurricanes – Francis is a great only choice with 16 years of service, but saldy wasn’t there for the cup. They are right not to hang a Gordie Howe banner.

11. Vancouver Canucks - only 1, Stan Smyl, has been, but he played his entire carrer there and racked up a lot of pts. However, no cups means no great memories.

12. Los Angeles Kings – I don’t like Vachon and Gretzky is debatable, but the others are worthy. Again, no cups = no great memories, though.

13. Pittsburgh Penguins – they are 1 for 2. Lemieux needs no comment, Briere should definitely not have a banner. I’ll be happier once I know Jagr won’t get one, as he shouldn’t either.

14. Edmonton Oilers – Even though they have 5 cups, they have passed out this honor a little too easily. Gretzky and Messier belong, Kurri is an okay choice, Fuhr, Coffey, and Hamilton should not be there.

15. Colorado Avalanche – Roy is fine even at only 8 years, his 2 cups were special, but Bourque should not be there at all. Sakic’s banner will give it more credibility, as long as Forsberg stay off, unless he returns to the team.

16. St Louis Blues – a lot of mediocre choices here, Federko is the most deserving but what is Gassoff doing here? Even Hull and MacInnis aren’t that strong. Thank god no Gretzky.

17. Washington Capitols – Langway and Hunter aren’t bad choices, but not exceedingly great. Labre has no business there.

18. Buffalo Sabres – they have been giving this honor out way too easily. Only Perreault deserves it. The others, despite the French connection line, don’t have enough years and again, no cups.

19. Dallas Stars – Its tough because Broten and Goldsworthy are okay choices, but played mostly in Minnesota, not Dallas. Masterton barely played, he shouldn’t be there. A Modano banner will help things, especially considering the cup year. Why did he lose his captaincy?

20. Ottawa Senators – I don’t like this retirement because Finnigan played for the old Senators which isn’t the same franchise.

21. Toronto Maple Leafs – they are the cellar-dwellers for only retiring numbers for career-ending deaths and “honoring†all others, a retarded practice.

The other teams have not retired any numbers. I know this is a strange and/or meaningless thread, but ever since the Yzerman number retirement, I’ve been more fascinated with the honor.

[Elshupacabra 0]

I've always felt very stongly about the honor of having your number retired with a franchise should be regarded as the highest honor a player can receive with a team and it should be reserved for only the most worthy, and loyal to the franchise. Some teams hold it to that standard, others retire numbers off a whim. I will rate how well I think teams regard that honor based on numbers they have retired. 21 current teams have at least 1 retired numbers. Teams will be judged on the players who have had their number retired and players who were rightfully or wrongfully denied that honor. Although people might disagree, I don’t feel tragic deaths should merit number retirement unless that honor was deserved anyways. Unofficial retirements wont count against teams.

I totally agree

[Earthhuman 8]

It's pretty hard to argue anything here, and I love to argue. Good choices.

I have to agree that Detroit is the most careful with who their honor. If we were like Colorado, Hull would be hanging from our rafters. I would bump us down the list pretty far if Shanahan is retired here.

And why was Modano de-captaintized? He promised a comeback season and delivered, he is a great leader, and he had 4 points in 5 games in the playoffs at 36 years old. Morrow is a good guy...

Edited April 2, 2007 by Earthhuman

[redwinger4747 6]

It's pretty hard to argue anything here, and I love to argue. Good choices.

I have to agree that Detroit is the most careful with who their honor. If we were like Colorado, Hull would be hanging from our rafters. I would bump us down the list pretty far if Shanahan is retired here.

And why was Modano de-captaintized? He promised a comeback season and delivered, he is a great leader, and he had 4 points in 5 games in the playoffs at 36 years old. Morrow is a good guy...

Yeah, Lidstrom only for the future, no Shanahan or Fedorov. I really don't understand Modano losing captaincy. Hmm.....

[HomeNugget 2]

8. Boston Bruins - 10 players, I don't like Hitchman, Esposito or Neely, but I like the others, however, quite a few didn't win cups there.

15. Colorado Avalanche - Roy is fine even at only 8 years, his 2 cups were special, but Bourque should not be there at all. Sakic's banner will give it more credibility, as long as Forsberg stay off, unless he returns to the team.

why were Espositos' 8 years and two cups not as important as Roy's?

edit: and bobby orr only had 9 years and two cups. sure he had 8 norris trophies, but phil had 5 art ross trophies with the bruins. you can't tell me that's not impressive. he also set a single season scoring record.

Edited April 2, 2007 by HomeNugget

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

1. Detroit Red Wings - 6 extremely worthy players, all champions with Detroit. Illitch is right not to hang an Aurie banner.

4. New York Rangers – 4 players, all deserving. Although Messier only had 10 seasons there, the cup year with his leadership was very special. Leech will be a nice addition as soon as he officially retires, and they are very right NOT to hang a Gretzky banner.

6. Montreal Canadiens - they have a lot, but 10 of the 12 are very well-deserving, although having 2 people up for the same number is kind of stupid. I don’t agree with Plante or Dryden for not enough years with Montreal and especially considering their plethora of legends is all the more reason to hold a very high standard for the honor. Larry Robinson and Jacques Lemaire would be good choices and should get the honor instead. But a lot of good choices nonetheless.

7. Philedelphia Flyers – 3 of 4 are strong candidates, Barry Ashbee only played 4 seasons, but all

4 were there for the cup years.

11. Vancouver Canucks - only 1, Stan Smyl, has been, but he played his entire carrer there and racked up a lot of pts. However, no cups means no great memories.

12. Los Angeles Kings – I don’t like Vachon and Gretzky is debatable, but the others are worthy. Again, no cups = no great memories, though.

13. Pittsburgh Penguins – they are 1 for 2. Lemieux needs no comment, Briere should definitely not have a banner. I’ll be happier once I know Jagr won’t get one, as he shouldn’t either.

14. Edmonton Oilers – Even though they have 5 cups, they have passed out this honor a little too easily. Gretzky and Messier belong, Kurri is an okay choice, Fuhr, Coffey, and Hamilton should not be there.

15. Colorado Avalanche – Roy is fine even at only 8 years, his 2 cups were special, but Bourque should not be there at all. Sakic’s banner will give it more credibility, as long as Forsberg stay off, unless he returns to the team.

19. Dallas Stars – Its tough because Broten and Goldsworthy are okay choices, but played mostly in Minnesota, not Dallas. Masterton barely played, he shouldn’t be there. A Modano banner will help things, especially considering the cup year. Why did he lose his captaincy?

21. Toronto Maple Leafs – they are the cellar-dwellers for only retiring numbers for career-ending deaths and “honoring†all others, a retarded practice.

Kudos for the resaerch, but I think you are wrong on a few of these. Here are the problems I have with what you said.

4. New York Rangers - Right not to have a Gretzky hung? If I am correct, the league retired his 99. Every team should have some sort of banner recognizing this.

11. Vancouver - No cups means no great memories? So you are telling me that without his 2 cups, Mario's career would have no great memories? And did Gretzky win a cup after leaving Edmonton? No, yet he broke the all-time scoring record in L.A., that isn't a great memory? Ron Francis never won a cup with Carolina, yet his retirement is still of good choice?

12. L.A. Kings - Gretzky did more for that franchise than any player has done for any franchise, period.

13. Pittsburg Penguins - How does Jagr NOT get his 68 hung?! He won 2 cups, and spent 11 seasons there, what more do you want?

14. Edmonton Oilers - I'll concied Hamilton, but Coffey and Fuhr were very large parts of the cup years, how do they even come into question?

15. Colorado Avs - Yes, Raymond should not have a 77 there, but Forsberg IS desrving of his 21 to be hung there. Again, cups won and years spent. This seems to be your formula. He meets the criteria, his best years were there, he should get it.

19. Dallas Stars - Modano lost the 'C' because management wanted to bring in a young guy, Morrow, who will be the face of teh franchise for years to come. Modano is a great leader. I don't see why or how giving Morrow the 'C' changes that, but I still think it is a bad move that didn't sit well with Modano.

21. Toronto Maple Leafs - I like the idea of honoring numbers, rather than retiring them. I do not agree with the retiring of a chosen few based on tragedy, however. The reason I like the honoring method moreso than the retiring method is simply this: it's different. Also, if you look back at the storied history of the Leafs (or any original 6 team) there are dozens of numbers that you could make an argument for retirement. And at the rate that some teams are haning numbers from the rafters, well, sooner or later we are going to run out of two digit numbers. Then what? Letters? Maybe three digit numbers? Ha, it'll be intersting...

Overall, great job on the post, I enjoyed it very much...

Yeah, Lidstrom only for the future, no Shanahan or Fedorov. I really don't understand Modano losing captaincy. Hmm.....

No shanny no sergie? Do their years in red and white hoisting the cup mean less than stevie or nicks? without shanny and sergei we don't win any of the three cups!

[glasgowcelticwing 18]

I agree retiring of a number is an honour that should fall to the players that earns that right through there talent ,comitment and sacrafice to there team. Lidstrom is a lock to get it, and i actually think that due to there service and success , they should think long and hard about honouring shanny and feds once they " hang em up".

[toby91_ca 620]

6. Montreal Canadiens - they have a lot, but 10 of the 12 are very well-deserving, although having 2 people up for the same number is kind of stupid. I don’t agree with Plante or Dryden for not enough years with Montreal and especially considering their plethora of legends is all the more reason to hold a very high standard for the honor. Larry Robinson and Jacques Lemaire would be good choices and should get the honor instead. But a lot of good choices nonetheless.

Gotta disagree here.

Although Dryden only played 7 years, all were with Montreal and during that time, he won 6 Cups, 5 Vezinas, 1 Conne Smythe and the Calder.

Plante won 7 Vezinas with Montreal, 1 Hart and 6 Cups.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Overall, great job on the post, I enjoyed it very much...

No shanny no sergie? Do their years in red and white hoisting the cup mean less than stevie or nicks? without shanny and sergei we don't win any of the three cups!

no, their years don't mean less than Stevie or Nick's, but we're talking about the highest team honor here. Look at the names that have been retired by the Wings over the years.

Lidstrom is the only one who really meets that standard.

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

no, their years don't mean less than Stevie or Nick's, but we're talking about the highest team honor here. Look at the names that have been retired by the Wings over the years.

Lidstrom is the only one who really meets that standard.

True, but without Shanny and Sergei, we don't win the cups. If we don't win the cups, Steveie isn't a lock in the HOF. And quite possibly, he could have been dealt. If you remember, there was a lot of talk about Stevie getting traded right up until we finally won. Yes, it was just speculation, but so is how great Steveie would be without the cups.

[royedwards 0]

I would agree that P. Esposito belongs, too; it's hard to imagine the Bruins in the 60s-70s without him.

I know a Montreal fan who thinks they've retired way too many numbers--he expects to see those three-digit numbers any day now!

[HomeNugget 2]

4. New York Rangers - Right not to have a Gretzky hung? If I am correct, the league retired his 99. Every team should have some sort of banner recognizing this.

nobody agrees with you. retiring his number league wide was a mistake. you can't force teams to honor a player who didn't play for them.

edit: spelling

Edited April 2, 2007 by HomeNugget

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

True, but without Shanny and Sergei, we don't win the cups. If we don't win the cups, Steveie isn't a lock in the HOF. And quite possibly, he could have been dealt. If you remember, there was a lot of talk about Stevie getting traded right up until we finally won. Yes, it was just speculation, but so is how great Steveie would be without the cups.

a lot of things could have happened.

What did happen is that Stevie spent his career here in Detroit, was one of the greatest captains in the game, won three Stanley Cups, an Olympic Gold medal, and on and on and on...

so it's fitting that he has his number retired here.

Not so for Shanny or Feds. There were many important players on all of the 10 Cup winning teams. That doesn't mean that they should have their number retired.

Lidstrom is the only one who warrants jersey retirement.

Had Shanny and Fedorov stayed in Detroit for the remainder of their careers, they both would've had a better shot at jersey retirement.

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

a lot of things could have happened.

What did happen is that Stevie spent his career here in Detroit, was one of the greatest captains in the game, won three Stanley Cups, an Olympic Gold medal, and on and on and on...

so it's fitting that he has his number retired here.

Not so for Shanny or Feds. There were many important players on all of the 10 Cup winning teams. That doesn't mean that they should have their number retired.

Lidstrom is the only one who warrants jersey retirement.

Had Shanny and Fedorov stayed in Detroit for the remainder of their careers, they both would've had a better shot at jersey retirement.

So if Nick decides he wants to join another NHL team or finish his career in Sweden he shouldn't get his jersey hung?

Hell, with that line of thinking, lets climb in the rafters and cut down all teh jerseys except for Yzerman's. Afterall, every single one of those guys played on other teams.

[HomeNugget 2]

19. Dallas Stars – Its tough because Broten and Goldsworthy are okay choices, but played mostly in Minnesota, not Dallas. Masterton barely played, he shouldn’t be there. A Modano banner will help things, especially considering the cup year. Why did he lose his captaincy?

20. Ottawa Senators – I don’t like this retirement because Finnigan played for the old Senators which isn’t the same franchise.

so its a no on Finnigan because he played for a different senators franchise and tough for Broten and Goldsworthy because they played for the same stars franchise? or is it a no on Finnigan because he means something in ottawa and tough for Broten and Goldsworthy because they don't mean much in dallas? i think all three should be honored. i don't think teams should abandon their history when they change cities. (unless we're talking about the baltimore ravens) and i also think the senators retiring Finnegan's number is good because it establishes a little history and get people interested in the past. too often people forget about what went before.

So if Nick decides he wants to join another NHL team or finish his career in Sweden he shouldn't get his jersey hung?

Hell, with that line of thinking, lets climb in the rafters and cut down all teh jerseys except for Yzerman's. Afterall, every single one of those guys played on other teams.

except delvecchio.

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

so its a no on Finnigan because he played for a different senators franchise and tough for Broten and Goldsworthy because they played for the same stars franchise? or is it a no on Finnigan because he means something in ottawa and tough for Broten and Goldsworthy because they don't mean much in dallas? i think all three should be honored. i don't think teams should abandon their history when they change cities. (unless we're talking about the baltimore ravens) and i also think the senators retiring Finnegan's number is good because it establishes a little history and get people interested in the past. too often people forget about what went before.

except delvecchio.

1951-1952 He played 6 games in the AHL for Indianapolis Capitals. 3g, 6a, 4 PIM.

He did also play for the Wings that year.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

So if Nick decides he wants to join another NHL team or finish his career in Sweden he shouldn't get his jersey hung?

Hell, with that line of thinking, lets climb in the rafters and cut down all teh jerseys except for Yzerman's. Afterall, every single one of those guys played on other teams.

can you show me the part where I said being a Red Wing for your whole career was a requirement?

Had Shanny and Feds stayed here, it doesn't mean they suddenly deserved to have their jersey hung. But if they stayed and done more great things with the team, it would've increased their chances. The key part being "done more great things with the team."

Like I've said several times now, it's an extremely high standard. It has to be a great great player who spent a significant part of their career here.

Winning three Cups is definitely significant parts for Shanny and Fed's career, but neither will be looked upon as a Red Wing great like Stevie was and Lidstrom is.

[redwinger4747 6]

Kudos for the resaerch, but I think you are wrong on a few of these. Here are the problems I have with what you said.

4. New York Rangers - Right not to have a Gretzky hung? If I am correct, the league retired his 99. Every team should have some sort of banner recognizing this.

11. Vancouver - No cups means no great memories? So you are telling me that without his 2 cups, Mario's career would have no great memories? And did Gretzky win a cup after leaving Edmonton? No, yet he broke the all-time scoring record in L.A., that isn't a great memory? Ron Francis never won a cup with Carolina, yet his retirement is still of good choice?

12. L.A. Kings - Gretzky did more for that franchise than any player has done for any franchise, period.

13. Pittsburg Penguins - How does Jagr NOT get his 68 hung?! He won 2 cups, and spent 11 seasons there, what more do you want?

14. Edmonton Oilers - I'll concied Hamilton, but Coffey and Fuhr were very large parts of the cup years, how do they even come into question?

15. Colorado Avs - Yes, Raymond should not have a 77 there, but Forsberg IS desrving of his 21 to be hung there. Again, cups won and years spent. This seems to be your formula. He meets the criteria, his best years were there, he should get it.

19. Dallas Stars - Modano lost the 'C' because management wanted to bring in a young guy, Morrow, who will be the face of teh franchise for years to come. Modano is a great leader. I don't see why or how giving Morrow the 'C' changes that, but I still think it is a bad move that didn't sit well with Modano.

21. Toronto Maple Leafs - I like the idea of honoring numbers, rather than retiring them. I do not agree with the retiring of a chosen few based on tragedy, however. The reason I like the honoring method moreso than the retiring method is simply this: it's different. Also, if you look back at the storied history of the Leafs (or any original 6 team) there are dozens of numbers that you could make an argument for retirement. And at the rate that some teams are haning numbers from the rafters, well, sooner or later we are going to run out of two digit numbers. Then what? Letters? Maybe three digit numbers? Ha, it'll be intersting...

Overall, great job on the post, I enjoyed it very much...

No shanny no sergie? Do their years in red and white hoisting the cup mean less than stevie or nicks? without shanny and sergei we don't win any of the three cups!

For Rangers not having Gretzky, its b/c he only spent 3 yrs there, and the last 3, not great ones. Just b/c his number is retired league wide, doesn't mean every team should honor him with a banner.

For cups = memories, I don't mean that there are NO good memories, just not the absolute great ones that can only come from winning a cup. Thereby, winning cups with the franchise gives you a huge boost in my formula and not winning any makes it more difficult to deserve the honor, but not impossible, like Bourque with Boston.

Yes Gretzky helped the LA franchise but only spent 7 years there, half of Luc's. I wouldn't says he's undeserving, just debatable.

Forsberg w/ Colorado and Jagr with Pitt I think are undeserving b/c of loyalty reasons. Yes, they have cups and lots of great years, but then left the team halfway or a little past halfway through their careers. Its exactly the same situation with Fedorov here in Detroit. Therefore in my opinion, as a comparison for the honor, Forsberg does not equal Sakic, Jagr does not equal Lemiuex, and Fedorov does not equal Yzerman. The latter 3 deserve the honor, the former 3 do not.

For Edmonton, its b/c they spent lots of seasons on other teams, lacking the loyalty quality.

why were Espositos' 8 years and two cups not as important as Roy's?

edit: and bobby orr only had 9 years and two cups. sure he had 8 norris trophies, but phil had 5 art ross trophies with the bruins. you can't tell me that's not impressive. he also set a single season scoring record.

Hmmm.... I guess I can concide that Esposito was great for those 8 years, but what affects me (tho maybe it shouldnt) is that he also played a lot more years for other teams when Orr played only 9 years but that was pretty much all he played (minus the little in Chicago) And so percentage of carrer with Boston was very high for Orr but not so for Esposito. Ultimately, I can understand the disagreement.

Gotta disagree here.

Although Dryden only played 7 years, all were with Montreal and during that time, he won 6 Cups, 5 Vezinas, 1 Conne Smythe and the Calder.

Plante won 7 Vezinas with Montreal, 1 Hart and 6 Cups.

I don't like Dryden b/c of the terms with which he left. He held out for more money and then just retired, mostly out of spite, after only 7 years. Plante was great, yes, but this is simply a case of having so many Legends, its time to hold a higher standard, so I'd leave him off because the others played many more seasons with the Canadiens while Plante was there for less than half his career i believe.

so its a no on Finnigan because he played for a different senators franchise and tough for Broten and Goldsworthy because they played for the same stars franchise? or is it a no on Finnigan because he means something in ottawa and tough for Broten and Goldsworthy because they don't mean much in dallas? i think all three should be honored. i don't think teams should abandon their history when they change cities. (unless we're talking about the baltimore ravens) and i also think the senators retiring Finnegan's number is good because it establishes a little history and get people interested in the past. too often people forget about what went before.

I guess a team should hold onto to history in both cases, but the retirements aren't as strong for those reasons as they are for teams that havnt relocated or folded and reformed. Again, I respect the disagreement.

As for the Wings, you could say without Hasek, the 02 cup would not have been won. That doesnt make his 2.5 years of service warrant jersey retirement. Only the greatest AND loyal deserve it.

Edited April 2, 2007 by redwinger4747

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

a lot of things could have happened.

What did happen is that Stevie spent his career here in Detroit, was one of the greatest captains in the game, won three Stanley Cups, an Olympic Gold medal, and on and on and on...

so it's fitting that he has his number retired here.

Not so for Shanny or Feds. There were many important players on all of the 10 Cup winning teams. That doesn't mean that they should have their number retired.

Lidstrom is the only one who warrants jersey retirement.

Had Shanny and Fedorov stayed in Detroit for the remainder of their careers, they both would've had a better shot at jersey retirement.

More great things? What did Yzerman do that was so great before he won the cups? And after? I'll give you wearing the C. But you can't hold that against Sergei and Shanny. Nor can you count what Yzerman did in international play (mind you Shanny played with him and won gold as well) as reason why his Red Wings 19 should be retired.

Is Yzerman mare deserving that Sergie or Shanny? Yes. But is Nick? No. What has Nick done in Detroit that is so special, that Shanny and Sergei haven't? The only thing he has on them is playing a few more years with the team, and wearing the 'C'. And, you can't count that against them as they aren't here to even be considered for the 'C'.

[redwinger4747 6]

More great things? What did Yzerman do that was so great before he won the cups? And after? I'll give you wearing the C. But you can't hold that against Sergei and Shanny. Nor can you count what Yzerman did in international play (mind you Shanny played with him and won gold as well) as reason why his Red Wings 19 should be retired.

Is Yzerman mare deserving that Sergie or Shanny? Yes. But is Nick? No. What has Nick done in Detroit that is so special, that Shanny and Sergei haven't? The only thing he has on them is playing a few more years with the team, and wearing the 'C'. And, you can't count that against them as they aren't here to even be considered for the 'C'.

Not BEING HERE to be considered for the C , i CAN count that against them, which is the reason Nick is deserving, and they are not.

[Airborn 0]

Kudos for the resaerch, but I think you are wrong on a few of these.

Have to agree with Redwinger on just about all of these. We're talking about the highest honor. It SHOULD be incredibly selective. I would use three criteria in selecting the player:

1 Were they a hall of fame level player

2. Did they spend either their entire career there (or at least a giant chunk)

3. Was the franchise successful during their tenure (doesn't have to be cups, but there has to have been success)

Kudos to Redwinger for a great post

[Echolalia 2,961]

Methinks that sig is too large for me widescreen

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

For Rangers not having Gretzky, its b/c he only spent 3 yrs there, and the last 3, not great ones. Just b/c his number is retired league wide, doesn't mean every team should honor him with a banner.

For cups = memories, I don't mean that there are NO good memories, just not the absolute great ones that can only come from winning a cup. Thereby, winning cups with the franchise gives you a huge boost in my formula and not winning any makes it more difficult to deserve the honor, but not impossible, like Bourque with Boston.

Yes Gretzky helped the LA franchise but only spent 7 years there, half of Luc's. I wouldn't says he's undeserving, just debatable.

Forsberg w/ Colorado and Jagr with Pitt I think are undeserving b/c of loyalty reasons. Yes, they have cups and lots of great years, but then left the team halfway or a little past halfway through their careers. Its exactly the same situation with Fedorov here in Detroit. Therefore in my opinion, as a comparison for the honor, Forsberg does not equal Sakic, Jagr does not equal Lemiuex, and Fedorov does not equal Yzerman. The latter 3 deserve the honor, the former 3 do not.

For Edmonton, its b/c they spent lots of seasons on other teams, lacking the loyalty quality.

If team loyalty comes into play, then how does Mess get his in NY? Jagr was traded to the Caps, and yes Forberg and Sergie did leave, but how does that diminish at all what they accomplished while they were with their teams? Forsberg will likely retire in the next few seasons, leaving the greatest part of his career with the Nordiques/Avs, and Sergie will have spent over half his career with the Wings. You can't compare anyone, even the other jersey retirees to Yzerman, he is in a class of his own. As for Jagr, he carried the Pens when they were the worst team in the league, and there was no hope left. He was dealt to the Caps and carried them. He is a great player and IMO deserves his 68 in the rafters at Mellon (or whatever it is when he retires)

Not BEING HERE to be considered for the C , i CAN count that against them, which is the reason Nick is deserving, and they are not.

Your logic makes sense to only you. If you are counting not being on the team against them, you must also then agree that you can't retire any of the other jersey's, except Yzermans. Afterall, each of them played for other teams.

[redwinger4747 6]

If team loyalty comes into play, then how does Mess get his in NY? Jagr was traded to the Caps, and yes Forberg and Sergie did leave, but how does that diminish at all what they accomplished while they were with their teams? Forsberg will likely retire in the next few seasons, leaving the greatest part of his career with the Nordiques/Avs, and Sergie will have spent over half his career with the Wings. You can't compare anyone, even the other jersey retirees to Yzerman, he is in a class of his own. As for Jagr, he carried the Pens when they were the worst team in the league, and there was no hope left. He was dealt to the Caps and carried them. He is a great player and IMO deserves his 68 in the rafters at Mellon (or whatever it is when he retires)

Your logic makes sense to only you. If you are counting not being on the team against them, you must also then agree that you can't retire any of the other jersey's, except Yzermans. Afterall, each of them played for other teams.

Mess gets his because he came back to NY after he left. Jagr and Forsberg, again, didn't have the franchise loyalty of Lemiuex and Sakic. I believe it should be incredibly selective, therefore, no on Jagr and Forsberg for leaving.

If team loyalty comes into play, then how does Mess get his in NY? Jagr was traded to the Caps, and yes Forberg and Sergie did leave, but how does that diminish at all what they accomplished while they were with their teams? Forsberg will likely retire in the next few seasons, leaving the greatest part of his career with the Nordiques/Avs, and Sergie will have spent over half his career with the Wings. You can't compare anyone, even the other jersey retirees to Yzerman, he is in a class of his own. As for Jagr, he carried the Pens when they were the worst team in the league, and there was no hope left. He was dealt to the Caps and carried them. He is a great player and IMO deserves his 68 in the rafters at Mellon (or whatever it is when he retires)

Your logic makes sense to only you. If you are counting not being on the team against them, you must also then agree that you can't retire any of the other jersey's, except Yzermans. Afterall, each of them played for other teams.

Firstly, I think some do agree with me, 2nd, Delvecchio, and 3rd, had Fedorov not held out in 98, stayed for 5 more years, we win another cup, then he spends 2 season with Columbus and retires, he would probably be deserving. Its also because he left himelf, getting traded at the end of your career is more forgivable. Its not that they left at all, its how and when.

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

Mess gets his because he came back to NY after he left. Jagr and Forsberg, again, didn't have the franchise loyalty of Lemiuex and Sakic. I believe it should be incredibly selective, therefore, no on Jagr and Forsberg for leaving.

Again, JAGR WAS DEALT HE DIDN'T LEAVE, and Mess came back, yes, but he wasn't half the player he was, the reason he came back is because NO ONE wanted him. Not even Edmonton. That makes no difference. He still spent the majority of his career in Edmonton.

Mess gets his because he came back to NY after he left. Jagr and Forsberg, again, didn't have the franchise loyalty of Lemiuex and Sakic. I believe it should be incredibly selective, therefore, no on Jagr and Forsberg for leaving.

Firstly, I think some do agree with me, 2nd, Delvecchio, and 3rd, had Fedorov not held out in 98, stayed for 5 more years, we win another cup, then he spends 2 season with Columbus and retires, he would probably be deserving. Its also because he left himelf, getting traded at the end of your career is more forgivable. Its not that they left at all, its how and when.

Shanny left because he wasn't going to be a mojor part of the Wings plan this year. He went to a team where he could be a bigger part. Sergie left because the Wings wouldn't pay him, plane and simple. He deserved A LOT more than the Wings were offering. Can't blame him.