Obstruction, Hooking, Slashing. Holding, Clutching, and Grabbing

[Guest ZDH]

They do cheat, that's a fact. Very few people, however, are saying that their cheating ways are the only thing that's gotten them to where they are right now. We give credit where credit is due.

Now quit trolling, you're terrible at it.

I just laugh. INstead of enjoying the Ducks run to the Cup, this guy is letting Wings fans ruin it for him. Ducks cheat, Ducks cheat. Who cares? If you aint cheatin you aint trying hard enough. You think we cared when Dallas Stars fans blamed not having Joe Nieuwendyk available for the '98 WCF? Of course not. After the Ducks win the Cup, this Bandwagon Ducks fan will likely come on this board and rub it in everyone's face. Instead of enjoying his team winning the Cup. Some fans are like that. Well they are not really fans if you think about it. All I know is that when the Wings won their 3 most recent Cups, I did not go on the Avs board or Flyers board to rub it in. I also did not get mad when Avs fans told me we didn't deserve it. I just laughed. But that's just me. I enjoy when my team wins the Cup. Is this not what people do now?

Edited May 31, 2007 by ZDH

[Roberto Who? 0]

They do cheat, that's a fact. Very few people, however, are saying that their cheating ways are the only thing that's gotten them to where they are right now. We give credit where credit is due.

Now quit trolling, you're terrible at it.

im far from trolling my friend....kinda just annoyed with all of this...

[Hank 0]

im far from trolling my friend....kinda just annoyed with all of this...

Here's an idea then; LEAVE

I'm very sorry that you're being annoyed on a message board that isn't about your team.

[Guest Shoreline]

I can't find the stats, but the Ducks have been called more for penalties in each of their series. Therefore, the way to beat them is to SCORE on you pps, which the Red Wings fell a little short on....The Sens have been awful - potent pp my a$$.

Personally, I don't like the clutching/grabbing teams, but I have to disagree that the Ducks are the worst offenders. Ever see the Wild play? The Ducks at least have a roster of talented highly skilled players. I just don't like Burke's style of rough and tumble - who cares if we take penalties. I actually don't think the Ducks need that to win. But it's working for them....and they'll be lifting the Cup soon.

You're pretty much right on this one.

It's no surprise the Ducks get penalized so much, and even then still get away with so much, which speaks loudly as to how terrible the officiating is. What are they afraid of? That the Ducks will complain that the reffing is too biased? Well, because of the lack of officiating, it's clear it worked the opposite -- now the refs look biased because they refused to call the Ducks on so many obvious penalties, yet call other teams on marginal penalties.

There's truth to it that no team buried the Ducks when they took penalties. Both the WIngs nor the Sens have been able do it. Part of it is, as mentioned in the thread, the fact that the Ducks would stare down the refs while obstructing, shorthanded, daring them to call another penalty so they could cry foul, and that the refs decide all of the games rather than the players. Unfortunately, the so-called 'consistent' calling we were calling we were so looking forward to went to the wayside, and ended up favoring the Ducks. No doubt the Wings, particularly in the 2002 cup, were benefactors of the old clutch-and-grab style. However, every team used it back then as much as they could get away with. This time, it's two fair-minded teams in Ottawa and Detroit who are getting nailed in the coffin by the league. Hell, what about the exciting Tampa/Calgary series? Both were the example of offensive-minded teams, although Calgary was dirty as hell. They had a kamikaze, crash-the-net offense, while Tampa had a move-the-puck-around-until-you-get-tired-of-chasing-it-and-let-us-score style.

Anyways, had the officiating been somewhat reasonable, the Ducks would have been easily out in the Wings series, and also buried in this series as well if somehow they beat the Wings. I have very little respect for this team, if you recall in 2003 when Giguere looked like the marshmallow man in goal, and to an extent still does -- it was amazing how a sub-200lbs man looked like he weighed about a hundred pounds more. Then afterwards came the new rules and regulations regarding goalie pad sizes. Surprised? Not me. Oh, and also no surprise was that Selanne was caught throughout his career, finally punished him (by being forced to use a regulation stick and assessed a measly penalty which costed his team the game against the Sharks) -- this is nothing new for him, though, having a much wider stick than everyone else. Not to tire myself out with the ranting, but it's clear when so many people cry foul, there's probably some cheating going on. I hate seeing cheaters win.

[clutchngrab 12]

Any solution to the state of the game CANNOT rest with officiating. The only consistency they have shown is incompetence and incosnsistency. The answer is in creating a game environment where obstruction cannot as easily take place. That could be bigger ice or playing 4 on 4. Possibly eliminate offsides and other radical approaches. I know any of those changes would be radical and controversial, but face facts - the game is imploding right now and officiating is not the answer.

[datsyukismyfriend 4]

im far from trolling my friend....kinda just annoyed with all of this...

so then go back to the ducks board.

[ZAMBONI 0]

I just laugh. INstead of enjoying the Ducks run to the Cup, this guy is letting Wings fans ruin it for him. Ducks cheat, Ducks cheat. Who cares? If you aint cheatin you aint trying hard enough. You think we cared when Dallas Stars fans blamed not having Joe Nieuwendyk available for the '98 WCF? Of course not. After the Ducks win the Cup, this Bandwagon Ducks fan will likely come on this board and rub it in everyone's face. Instead of enjoying his team winning the Cup. Some fans are like that. Well they are not really fans if you think about it. All I know is that when the Wings won their 3 most recent Cups, I did not go on the Avs board or Flyers board to rub it in. I also did not get mad when Avs fans told me we didn't deserve it. I just laughed. But that's just me. I enjoy when my team wins the Cup. Is this not what people do now?

I'm enjoying it thoroughly just me and my lucky,sucky,cheating duckies.

[motorcitykid 42]

Here's an idea then; LEAVE

I'm very sorry that you're being annoyed on a message board that isn't about your team.

Here's hoping Ottawa gets back on track at home Saturday.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Forgive me for sounding like a jerk, but some of our posts about officiating, generally speaking, are starting to get a little bit ridiculous.

Yes, I understand the Wings getting eliminated is hard to deal with and we wanted them to be in the Finals. Yes, I understand there is frustration with referees and that they have been inconsistent. I’m definitely not denying that.

It’s not like the people are out there beating the crap out of each other with sledgehammers or shooting each other with handguns. I’m sorry, I just don’t get all that worked up share as much outrage concerning this (no I am not trying to sound like or imply I am better than others because of this, and please don’t assume that I am any less off a fan because I might not share or show as much passion or emotion as other fans).

Is the officiating perfect? Not even close. And no, I’m not saying it’s a crime to talk about it or be critical of it at all, but is it as bad as we are portraying in here? I don’t think so. Inconsistent officiating has always been part of the NHL pre-lockout and post-lockout, and it will probably always be this way. That is just a fact of hockey life for better or worse (mainly worse I know). I just don’t see officiating as something or an excuse that is just completely ruining or killing the NHL or Finals or embarrassing hockey altogether for the rest of mankind. I’m just trying to see the glass half-full. Refereeing is not going to drive the NHL or the ratings away downhill anytime soon (or anything else for that matter).

I can tell you from personal experience, that refereeing ANY SPORT on the court/field of action is difficult. I’ve refereed both basketball and soccer games back in college for a few years which young adults have played in. Needless to say, fairly fast paced action and a lot of things happen all at the same time. There is just so much to try to react to and consider, every second of a game. You see more on TV or in the stands at a game as opposed to on the court/ice/field. That’s just a plain, simple fact. Referees cannot be in the stands though. It is impossible to manage 10 or more multiple people on the court or ice at the same time when a body or two is just 3 feet in front of you and you are trying to see EVERYTHING POSSIBLE. Almost every call/non-call I’ve made has been criticized and people have called for my head as well. IT’S HARD WORK AND A DIFFICULT JOB.

So, I ask, at the very least, to just try to understand this and give them a shred of sympathy? Again, I speak from some personal experience even though it is not hockey-related and I am coming from a more general standpoint with officiating.

We watch hockey and we watch the Finals IN SPITE OF the Wings getting eliminated or the inconsistent officiating. The first two games have not been torturous and dramatically bad as some posts in here are out to make it to be. Not even close. Let’s get over whatever bitterness we might have with the refs or the Ducks or whatever else and just watch these last few games, all of us. I don’t think that’s too difficult of a request to ask.

*Straps flame suit on*

Edited May 31, 2007 by SouthernWingsFan

[BlueMonk 102]

Doesn't bother me at all. I've given up letting this type of thing get to me. First of all, nobody's ever happy with the officiating; it's either too much obstruction or ticky-tack penalties for phantom hooks. Whatever the officials do, a huge group of people complains. I know this board isn't a representative sample, but to judge by the majority of posters here, officiating is responsible for every loss the Red Wings have suffered this season. This is just the way it goes in sports, griping about the way they call games.

I love hockey whether it's being called like this or like it was last year.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Doesn't bother me at all. I've given up letting this type of thing get to me. First of all, nobody's ever happy with the officiating; it's either too much obstruction or ticky-tack penalties for phantom hooks. Whatever the officials do, a huge group of people complains. I know this board isn't a representative sample, but to judge by the majority of posters here, officiating is responsible for every loss the Red Wings have suffered this season. This is just the way it goes in sports, griping about the way they call games.

I love hockey whether it's being called like this or like it was last year.

[vangvace 12]

Forgive me ...

*Straps flame suit on*

nice post SWF

[Kp-Wings 3]

Here's an idea then; LEAVE

I'm very sorry that you're being annoyed on a message board that isn't about your team.

Good post.

I find it hilarious that this Robert Who? guy chooses to get so annoyed about what fans of another team say about the Ducks. I mean, I could get pissed off over what stupid things Blues fans say about the Wings, but it does no good. Besides that, it really doesn't bother me.

But yet, here we have a Ducks fan, losing his cool over Wings fans not liking his beloved Ducks. It's really quite funny.

[RedRockit 0]

Forgive me for sounding like a jerk, but some of our posts about officiating, generally speaking, are starting to get a little bit ridiculous.

Yes, I understand the Wings getting eliminated is hard to deal with and we wanted them to be in the Finals. Yes, I understand there is frustration with referees and that they have been inconsistent. I’m definitely not denying that.

It’s not like the people are out there beating the crap out of each other with sledgehammers or shooting each other with handguns. I’m sorry, I just don’t get all that worked up share as much outrage concerning this (no I am not trying to sound like or imply I am better than others because of this, and please don’t assume that I am any less off a fan because I might not share or show as much passion or emotion as other fans).

Is the officiating perfect? Not even close. And no, I’m not saying it’s a crime to talk about it or be critical of it at all, but is it as bad as we are portraying in here? I don’t think so. Inconsistent officiating has always been part of the NHL pre-lockout and post-lockout, and it will probably always be this way. That is just a fact of hockey life for better or worse (mainly worse I know). I just don’t see officiating as something or an excuse that is just completely ruining or killing the NHL or Finals or embarrassing hockey altogether for the rest of mankind. I’m just trying to see the glass half-full. Refereeing is not going to drive the NHL or the ratings away downhill anytime soon (or anything else for that matter).

I can tell you from personal experience, that refereeing ANY SPORT on the court/field of action is difficult. I’ve refereed both basketball and soccer games back in college for a few years which young adults have played in. Needless to say, fairly fast paced action and a lot of things happen all at the same time. There is just so much to try to react to and consider, every second of a game. You see more on TV or in the stands at a game as opposed to on the court/ice/field. That’s just a plain, simple fact. Referees cannot be in the stands though. It is impossible to manage 10 or more multiple people on the court or ice at the same time when a body or two is just 3 feet in front of you and you are trying to see EVERYTHING POSSIBLE. Almost every call/non-call I’ve made has been criticized and people have called for my head as well. IT’S HARD WORK AND A DIFFICULT JOB.

So, I ask, at the very least, to just try to understand this and give them a shred of sympathy? Again, I speak from some personal experience even though it is not hockey-related and I am coming from a more general standpoint with officiating.

We watch hockey and we watch the Finals IN SPITE OF the Wings getting eliminated or the inconsistent officiating. The first two games have not been torturous and dramatically bad as some posts in here are out to make it to be. Not even close. Let’s get over whatever bitterness we might have with the refs or the Ducks or whatever else and just watch these last few games, all of us. I don’t think that’s too difficult of a request to ask.

*Straps flame suit on*

I'm quoting your whole post because I agree with much of it.... BUT (hadta know it was coming, yes?).there's an importance in discussing the inconsistent reffing.

There's far more going on here than missed calls and human error-- and it's not Konspiratsia (much as I'd love to put it at Bettman's door). The rules, and more importantly, the common practices, for refs in our New NHL are evidently clear as the Cuyahoga. I honestly DO believe that the refs are doing as well as one can humanly expect, but I think they're faced with a quagmire for which they are ill-prepared. Something that should NEVER happen in professional sports, especially two years gone from change.

I was upset during the whole of the Wings/Ducks series, believing that cheap-shotting and hooking and tripping won that series,. BUT-- even if that were as true as my homer glasses told me: the Ducks got away with it, and in hockey, IF YOU CAN GET AWAY WITH IT, it's fair game.For anyone who watched the BUF/OTT semis, you saw Ottawa doing the same thing to the Sabres that the Ducks are now bringing to them (unclean hits, forechecking, interference whenever BUF tried to dump it in, etc. etc etc.) It's humourous that Murray is now complaining about the things that his team did simply because he's now up against a BiggerBadder.

At least in the so-called Old NHL, that was the rule-- if you can get away with it *winkwink* it's a fair play. C'mon, you all know our Red history isn't lilywhite-- nor is any other teams'. But this is supposed to be a New Era, and look-- two extremely physical teams made it to the SCF's over two skilled teams. The NHL is sending a message (however inadvertently, I don't give Bettman enough credit to send a message to his assistant's secretarty's assistant to send out for PIZZA on his own hook) and I personally rescind my preference to retain Bert (his history renders him virtually incapable of goonage) or to get lil Kozlov back (don't care about his skills, give me a nice big dumbass to shut down the other team's scorers however many pens they take, our PKs pretty potent, so what?).

Yikes, though I was done w/ bitter, evidently not from my last para. There are bright spots on the Ducks team that will leave me without a bitter taste, I WILL say... Getzlaf, Penner, and even eejit Corey (Yer Gonna Get It, and Yer Little Dog Too) Perry have shone, and evidently Don Cherry ADORES Sean O'Donnell (hmmmm, Ok, I kinda see it, but just hmmmm...), and Jiggy has been a solid wall.

Still praying for a SENS win, but I fear there aren't enough novenas... I already set the church on fire with candles last series.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Good post.

I find it hilarious that this Robert Who? guy chooses to get so annoyed about what fans of another team say about the Ducks. I mean, I could get pissed off over what stupid things Blues fans say about the Wings, but it does no good. Besides that, it really doesn't bother me.

But yet, here we have a Ducks fan, losing his cool over Wings fans not liking his beloved Ducks. It's really quite funny.

Its funny , they mock the wings , yet we always make the playoffs , they never do. They were IMO the worst team in the league the last 2 years (Philly aside this year) I just dont get it , we beat them bad every year , were a better team , better coach , better gm , better history.

It blows my mind man.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

There's far more going on here than missed calls and human error-- and it's not Konspiratsia (much as I'd love to put it at Bettman's door). The rules, and more importantly, the common practices, for refs in our New NHL are evidently clear as the Cuyahoga. I honestly DO believe that the refs are doing as well as one can humanly expect, but I think they're faced with a quagmire for which they are ill-prepared. Something that should NEVER happen in professional sports, especially two years gone from change.

This is probably the biggest problem in all the things to consider. It's not so much the the officiating of the games themselves might be bad or inconsistent, but after nearly two seasons of tweaking things and the rules, there still seems to be plenty of confusion between everybody on what is legal/illegal or legit or not. Better communication, planning and such are needed prior to next season.

That being said though, I'll still be watching because I love watching the sport in spite of the refs or whatever else.

[Statts 4]

Doesn't bother me at all. I've given up letting this type of thing get to me. First of all, nobody's ever happy with the officiating; it's either too much obstruction or ticky-tack penalties for phantom hooks. Whatever the officials do, a huge group of people complains. I know this board isn't a representative sample, but to judge by the majority of posters here, officiating is responsible for every loss the Red Wings have suffered this season. This is just the way it goes in sports, griping about the way they call games.

I love hockey whether it's being called like this or like it was last year.

Wow. Everything I was thinking and more. Excellent post.

[Kp-Wings 3]

Its funny , they mock the wings , yet we always make the playoffs , they never do. They were IMO the worst team in the league the last 2 years (Philly aside this year) I just dont get it , we beat them bad every year , were a better team , better coach , better gm , better history.

It blows my mind man.

Their jealous.

It's mostly after that series in 1996 when Yzerman scored the winner to eliminate them. I don't know what they expected. I mean, the Wings were the best team in the league that year. St. Louis was middle of the pack for most of the year. Was it really expected they'd win with Gretzky? He was past his prime at that point, and was a bust in St. Louis. I'll never understand how those people think, and why exactly they hold some grudge against the Wings. Their weird.

Edited June 1, 2007 by Kp-Wings

[RedRockit 0]

This is probably the biggest problem in all the things to consider. It's not so much the the officiating of the games themselves might be bad or inconsistent, but after nearly two seasons of tweaking things and the rules, there still seems to be plenty of confusion between everybody on what is legal/illegal or legit or not. Better communication, planning and such are needed prior to next season.

That being said though, I'll still be watching because I love watching the sport in spite of the refs or whatever else.

Absolutely-- last night's game was riveting, even though scoreless till late.

Here's a big caveat, though: I used to be proficient in marketing and PR, and in discussing that game with SabreFriend today, I PO'd her much by saying that the celebs schmoozing were a Good Thing for Hockey. And that, though hockey fans undoubtedly grokked that scoreless game, it would bore the heck outta a potential fan tuning in (dunno how many casual would-be's there would actually be, considering VS is NOT on anyone's, anywhere, FAV list, and most people in the US who have VS also have 120 other channels).

(Don't get me wrong-- it was truly creepy seeing Snoop signing auto's for little kids at a HOCKEY GAME. SO WRONG that I think the world whirled a bit off-axis last night. But looking at it from a purely biz angle (and thinking how much celebs have done to put the Lakers on the publicity map: Kobe and Shaq would have been LeBron--superstars w/out a PR hook, w/out the H'wood angle for E! or ET), maybe the Ducks appearance in the SCF could be good for hockey.

Anything's better than the non-existence of our sport on telly, and dumb, non-hockey stuff could bring new fans to the sport. Exposure is a HUGE thing, and our beloved sport just isn't getting any here in the US. There are ways to market it (SabFriend yelled at me about my overly-commercial ideas, so I won't bring 'em up here-- but heck, if even I have those ideas, couldn't a dream team of admen and PR peeps come up with a fantastic push?)

SabFriend thinks I'm insane, thinks I'm suggesting bastardizing our game. I'm just being realistic, but I must agree: Snoop, and all that the man has embodied in his music over the last decade, signing autographs for littles and being celebrated as a Ducks fans goes hard with the grain with me.

[vangvace 12]

Show me one playoff game from last year to this year that didn't have passion. They've all been spilling over with it.

You want to talk about OLD time hockey, then what era are you referring to? Because if you mean the 80's and early 90's there was a tonne of scoring, no hooking and holding and no defensive zone traps.

The 'new' NHL is closer to what oldtime hockey used to be. Think I'm full of it? Then what about players like the great Jean Beleveau? He said that hockey in 05-06 was the closest he's seen since his heyday. I've heard other players like Joe Sakic praise it as well.

Sure, there's less fights but that's got a lot more to do with the systems put in place and the influx of Europeans. There's no room for goons that can't do anything out there.

I like a tilt as much as the next guy but if fighting served any purpose above and beyond entertainment you would see a LOT more of it in the playoffs where the games are 10000x more important. If fighting really did translate into wins then the deadline would be ripe with deals for goons.

Let's say that old time hockey is roughly 1940s-1950s to 1992-1993ish.

Is it closer to the old ways, yes. but it is also still a washed out version of what is was though IMO. The influx of Euros is a poor excuse too, many of the early pond jumpers did fight from time to time and I have a feeling many of the current breed would as well. Systems... yeah that hurt but not nearly as much as the instigator penalty* did. Tough guys were sought after and drafted before then and now, because of rule changes, they are considered goons unless they're good for 30+ points a season.

*I could be wrong and I'm having trouble researching if in fact that cheapshots and injuries are up since fighters were castrated by that rule or it's a load of bunk.

And don't spout off about 'tradition'. If everyone wanted to stick to tradition then hockey should be played 6-on-6, where goalies can't go down to block shots, no bluelines and no forward passing. Because that's what NHL hockey was in the beginning.

And baseball has changed considerably. Designated hitters, shorter mound, tighter ball, large bullpens. Heck, at one time if the ball bounced over the wall it was called a homerun.

Times have changed and sports need to as well. People forget that sports are entertainment. And last nights game was anything but.

I wouldn't pay to watch Lebron James or Michael Jordan get mugged up and down the floor all night resulting in a 24-22 game. So why should hockey fans have to watch their stars suffer through the same things?

So tell me what was the last major change to baseball's rules? In the 70s when they added the DH? 1994 when they changed the playoffs? Perhaps there was a change to the strike zone since then baseball isn't really a sport I follow close enough.

My point was that they are two great sports with long histories yet only one has been so manic with major rule changes over the last 15ish years.

Edit to add: It'll be interesting to see the rule tweaking/ reeducation during the offseason. Esp. with certain powers wanting to change playoff overtimes

Edited June 1, 2007 by vangvace

[seeinred 1,488]

SWF and BlueMonk:

I pretty much agree with the basic message of what you're saying. Yeah, the officiating is inconsistent, and no, it's obviously not the end of the world. As for us blaming every loss on the officiating: well I assume that was hyperbole, but it's our right, nay, our duty, as fans to complain about how awful the refs are.

I, like most people, don't care if you let penalties go. But be consistent in it. Don't let a hook go one minute, then call it the next. By calling a penalty, you are saying that it's just that: a penalty. Therefore it needs to be called every time it happens. The only things I think that need to be called every time without exception are potentially dangerous hits from behind and other malicious things, and yes interference.

As for the officiating always being inconsistent, how does that make it OK? I've loved watching hockey from the first game I ever saw; just like all of you here I'm a huge fan of the game. It's my prerogative to expect and demand perfection from the referees to make the game more enjoyable for me. Now whether or not we'll ever get games called the way we want, we'll have to see, but it doesn't hurt to talk about it.

[RockyMountainWingGal 108]

Agreed with the officiating being just inconsistent in general. I can't find a reason to blame it for winning or losing. In fact if you want to talk about the Wings specifically, we had several 5 on 3s that we botched - you're not going to get too many of those - but we got them and didn't convert.

What I don't like is when it seems like an entire game is being played on special teams. Are they calling too much - or are today's players committing more infractions? I would be curious to know how many pps/game were given in what some are calling "old school" hockey? I couldn't find it myself, but my guess is they just let them play more.

I also agree that the only way to get rid of this is to open up the ice. I'm all in favor of 4 on 4 in OT - I cannot figure why some don't want it. "tradition" isn't going to get fans back to the game right now - more open ice is..

Also, I take this thread is about officiating/clutch&grab in general - not just singling out the Ducks. The Ducks are playing withing the system and are being called for alot of penalties. Most teams would lose doing this - but they've got enough talented players to make it work for them. Please stop with the asterisks for Cup winners - if the Ducks win they didn't "cheat". Ditto for the Duck fan lamenting the Wings 02 Cup. Every team had an equal shot at FAs then - no cap. If an owner was too cheap to pay - too bad for them. Plus the only FA we aquired were an aged Brett Hull and Luc Robataille - noone else wanted them. Hardly cheating.

[RedRockit 0]

SWF and BlueMonk:

I pretty much agree with the basic message of what you're saying. Yeah, the officiating is inconsistent, and no, it's obviously not the end of the world. As for us blaming every loss on the officiating: well I assume that was hyperbole, but it's our right, nay, our duty, as fans to complain about how awful the refs are.

I, like most people, don't care if you let penalties go. But be consistent in it. Don't let a hook go one minute, then call it the next. By calling a penalty, you are saying that it's just that: a penalty. Therefore it needs to be called every time it happens. The only things I think that need to be called every time without exception are potentially dangerous hits from behind and other malicious things, and yes interference.

As for the officiating always being inconsistent, how does that make it OK? I've loved watching hockey from the first game I ever saw; just like all of you here I'm a huge fan of the game. It's my prerogative to expect and demand perfection from the referees to make the game more enjoyable for me. Now whether or not we'll ever get games called the way we want, we'll have to see, but it doesn't hurt to talk about it.

But those are the very things that aren't getting called, and that is exactly what gives a Pronger the right to feel that he can smash a premier player like Holmstrom into the boards so egregiously. Because he CAN.

I honestly believe that had not Rob N been there, with what amounted to a double-team shot, that no call would have been made, The refs were accepting those hits in the BUF/OTT series-- there was a hit on Tallinder by Alfredsson that put him out of the game that was eereily prophetic of Pronger's hit on Homer, and no call whatsoever was made there.

New NHL?

I call.

[seeinred 1,488]

But those are the very things that aren't getting called, and that is exactly what gives a Pronger the right to feel that he can smash a premier player like Holmstrom into the boards so egregiously. Because he CAN.

I honestly believe that had not Rob N been there, with what amounted to a double-team shot, that no call would have been made, The refs were accepting those hits in the BUF/OTT series-- there was a hit on Tallinder by Alfredsson that put him out of the game that was eereily prophetic of Pronger's hit on Homer, and no call whatsoever was made there.

New NHL?

I call.

Exactly. That's part of what I was getting at, is that the refs are calling things kind of backwards right now. Call the interference, call the boarding, call the high sticks. Let the weak hooks and holds and trips and stuff go, as long as the other guy has the puck and it doesn't blatantly prevent a scoring chance.

Edited June 1, 2007 by SeeinRed

[Hank 0]

Let's say that old time hockey is roughly 1940s-1950s to 1992-1993ish.

Is it closer to the old ways, yes. but it is also still a washed out version of what is was though IMO. The influx of Euros is a poor excuse too, many of the early pond jumpers did fight from time to time and I have a feeling many of the current breed would as well. Systems... yeah that hurt but not nearly as much as the instigator penalty* did. Tough guys were sought after and drafted before then and now, because of rule changes, they are considered goons unless they're good for 30+ points a season.

*I could be wrong and I'm having trouble researching if in fact that cheapshots and injuries are up since fighters were castrated by that rule or it's a load of bunk.

So tell me what was the last major change to baseball's rules? In the 70s when they added the DH? 1994 when they changed the playoffs? Perhaps there was a change to the strike zone since then baseball isn't really a sport I follow close enough.

My point was that they are two great sports with long histories yet only one has been so manic with major rule changes over the last 15ish years.

Edit to add: It'll be interesting to see the rule tweaking/ reeducation during the offseason. Esp. with certain powers wanting to change playoff overtimes

I understand what you're saying. But the fact is times change. In the 1940's-50's the game was played by men who averaged 5'8" in height, only 2 lines of forwards and 4 dmen were used. Goalies didn't wear masks, and therefore shooters respected their saftey and very rarely shot high. Look at old film and you'll see proof of that. There were no slapshots until Boom-Boom Geoffrion discovered it by accident. There were a lot more fights than there are today, but not as much as some people think there was. You know the term "Gordie Howe Hattrick"? (1goal, 1 assist and a fight). Gordie Howe only had ONE his entire career.

Scoring was abysmal too. 3-2 and 2-1 games were the norm but top scorers were still able to get a point a game because they only used 6 forwards really.

1992-93 there was a tonne of scoring. I think 19 of the top 20 scorers got 100+ points and there were two 70-goal scorers along with 14 50+ goal scorers. I look back at his season fondly because it was full of great goals, scorers and, yes, more fights. Top scorers also averaged between 25-35 minutes a night.

But the fact is, times have changed considerably since then. Much, much better and bigger goalie equipment, defensive systems, rolling 4 lines, instigator penalty, etc.

I don't think there's going to be any change to this so the league needs to do something to open the game up again.

Regarding the officiating, I'm going to mimic what others have said here; it's a very tough job. There's no harder sport to referee. Also, I don't blame the refs for the Wings loss in the least. Sure, there were some missed calls, but in the end we didn't take advantage of our opportunites and the Ducks did.

My whole thing concerning the finals is that it's boring from a fans standpoint. I just want to watch good hockey, and game 2 was a stinker in my opinion.

I think the only way the NHL can make a league that features more odd man rushes and scoring is to greatly reduce the goalie equipment (or go to bigger nets - make this the goalies decision) and go to 4 on 4 full time. I know that sounds radical, but like I said earlier, NHL hockey used to be played 6-on-6 but was reduced to 5-on-5 when players got bigger and faster. That's exactly what's happening now.

I don't think a bigger ice surface is the answer as it would only serve to assist in trapping systems. Just watch European hockey. It's boring as hell. I know that with NHL calibre rosters it wouldn't be as bad, but can you imagine what coaches like Jacque Lemaire, Jacque Martin or any coach the Devils employ would do with that big of surface? We're talking a bananza of 1-0 games.

With 4 on 4 it would make traps a lot harder to do. It would also cut out a bunch of no-talent players from the league.

Of course the union would never go for reduced jobs (although, the higher priced players would like it as they'd get paid more), and I'm sure there would be even less fighting so that would make some people ticked off.

I'm rambling now, but my whole point is, I want hockey to open up to the point where creativity can reign like it did back in the 80's and early 90's. I don't think there's only 1 thing the league can do, but a combination. But I think an excellent start would be to reduce the goalie equipment and continue to get the obstruction out of the league.