Why no Enforcer in Motown?

[Guest Crymson]

"Yes, the stats speak for themselves--all of them brought precisely nothing. What a silly post. Because Norton had one assist, you say he 'brought more to the table' than those who had zero points? "

You are oblivious. The stats prove to everyone on the forum screaming about "wasting a spot on a 'enforcer'" is pointless and takes away from point production. This proves that assumption wrong you tool. "blah blah blah *snide comment* more to the table?" shut up, when it comes to the job of an ENFORCER (hence the topic of the thread) Norton did a fine job of it without being a liability.

Is that why he NEVER played last year, despite the fact that Langfeld sucked?

on top of everything else it would help attendance... fans like tough, physical play and they don't like to see there team be steamrolled and then back down.. was anyone else a little embarrassed about the attendance at the Joe during the playoffs? (and reg season)

Omg. This is the ULTIMATE silly post. Are you living in space, or did you just otherwise somehow manage to miss the fact that the Detroit area's economy has been devastated in the last year or so? When the fact that one does not have much money to go around is coupled with the fact that playoff tickets are extremely expensive in Detroit, one cannot buy playoff tickets.

A team doesn't have a sellout streak going back to 1997 and then suddenly have an attendance drop because they don't have an enforcer. Nice try, champ.

[StevieY9802 6]

Maybe we should make it clear what the difference between an enforcer and a tough hockey player is.

I dunno - I consider enforcers guys like Boogaard, McGratton, Parros, and Parker. These guys have a sole purpose on the team and that is to throw there weight around and fight when told.

I consider guys like Moen, Chris Neil, and Sean Avery tough guys. They see regular ice time on the third or fourth line, and actually manage to put up respectable numbers.

Do the Wings need a guy like Neil? Heck yes, any team does. He sticks up for teammates, drops the gloves when necessary*, and put the puck in the net. But do I think they need a McGratton or Parros? Absolutely not. They don't fit into the Wings game plan. The Wings are a puck possession team - guys like Parros have trouble skating the puck out of there own end, let alone setting up pressure in the offensive zone. I just don't think Holland and Babcock are going to devote cap and roster space to a guy who can't play within the system they are working. Chris Neil and even McCarty of 7-8 years ago are/were able to maintain toughness while still playing within a system. A highly question a Parros type players ability to do that.

I think the enforcer days are slowly coming to an end. Teams value tough guys who can still compete at the NHL level with the puck on there stick.

Thats what I was trying to say before. Neil is a good example of the type of player that would be nice to have but they are hard to find. They can be physical, fight if needed and can still play in the system. Like Mac and Marty 10 years ago.

Is that why he NEVER played last year, despite the fact that Langfeld sucked?

Brad Norton is the type of player the wings didn't need. People who want someone who fights thinks hes good because thats all he does. Just because he can fight the wings should sign him up? Something tells me that Babcock and Holland know more than any of us in here about what the teams needs. and since Norton never played and Langfeld got more time that could show you something. A guy like Norton won't play come playoff time. Fighting doesn't happen in the playoffs so how would he help then? Nice to have those guys during the season but they have a nice job, if they are dressed, in the playoffs of holding the bench door during line changes. Like Yzerfan1999 said someone who can still play in the system and do the physical stuff is what would be great but you can't just find these guys.

[shanny is the man 0]

In life if you don't meet your goals, you've failed.

I prefer "neglected to suceed."

[skacore 2]

A team doesn't have a sellout streak going back to 1997 and then suddenly have an attendance drop because they don't have an enforcer. Nice try, champ.

If you think this year's team had nothing to do with the lack of attendance you are simply lying to yourself

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

I can't believe that so many of you are content with Andreas Lilja being the best fighter on our team. As a fan I would like an enforcer on this team just to know that when s*** goes down, we have someone who can do somehing about it, instead of standing around like statues.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

If you think this year's team had nothing to do with the lack of attendance you are simply lying to yourself

In one of his playoff matchups, Buccigross talked about how the Wings were very talented, but didn't have much of a personality. I tend to agree. And I don't mean personality like we need Roenick or anything. But this team didn't have a strong identity or reputation yet. though in this last playoff run, I think they started to forge one.

I can't believe that so many of you are content with Andreas Lilja being the best fighter on our team. As a fan I would like an enforcer on this team just to know that when s*** goes down, we have someone who can do somehing about it, instead of standing around like statues.

I just gotta say, though he's not a very good fighter, I give Lilja a lot of props for dropping the gloves. Clearly fighting has not really been a part of his game in the past, so he's basically learning how to fight at the absolute highest level of the sport in order to help fill a role the team needs. That takes some balls.

I'd also like to clarify that my new obsession with wanting toughness has little to do with the UFAs we lost. I didn't really think Bert was the solution. He could've helped out if he stayed healthy and found his old game, but honestly I think the odds of that happening were pretty low.

It's just that I'm tired of another year going by where the team keeps getting smaller. Even looking at their top prospects, very few are guys over 6 feet and 200 pounds. You don't need giants out there, but the Wings are definitely undersized. When your whole team is that way, it puts you at a disadvantage. They're easier to knock around. They're easier to knock off the puck. They're easier to keep away from the front of the net.

It's not going to be any one player. It's gotta come through drafting and through signing. But holy hell, it'd be nice to see a step in that direction. Whether people realize it or not, the Wings have lost a lot of size over the years.

The Wings don't need a true enforcer, but for chrissakes let's get some size and toughness back on the team. Yes, Zetterberg and Dats and all the other guys proved they could take a beating and dished out some hits. That's great. I'm all for that. But it's not their primary role. You also need the big bodies out there banging away, and dropping the gloves if need be.

Edited July 20, 2007 by haroldsnepsts

[redwingfan19 293]

We need a legit tough guy with a 2 way contract we can call up when we play cheap shot artist teams such as the duxs and the flames. Thats about the only way we would need a fighter.

[sticknmove 0]

"When he was in the box for a stupid penalty, how many times did the Wings get scored on? How many times did the opposing team look at him and his lack of skills in the fighting department and NOT become intimidated?"

ARE YOU REALLY THAT DULL? he had 20 pims, all FM, all were matching fm's you moron, he took 1 with him. becomes 4 on 4 which favors the wings in most situations.

"Is that why he NEVER played last year, despite the fact that Langfeld sucked?"

HE NEVER PLAYED BECAUSE for some reason there is an anti enforcer policy (sarcasm, had to point it out for the tools who would take it literally), or at least thats how it seems as of late. go jump on Hudkers d*ck, i am through trying to point out the obvious, but when one of our stars goes down i hope then you will do more then tear up and scream for a 3 game suspension

[Heaton 1]

We need a legit tough guy with a 2 way contract we can call up when we play cheap shot artist teams such as the duxs and the flames. Thats about the only way we would need a fighter.

Two way contract does not mean they're exempt from waivers, it just means they have two different pay grades when up and down.

[redwingfan19 293]

Two way contract does not mean they're exempt from waivers, it just means they have two different pay grades when up and down.

ok then a guy who doesn't have to clear waivers then, someone we could send up and down like bootland except they can fight

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

What is the word on a guy like Eric Godard. He ain't going to do much except fight, but that's better than what a guy like Langfeld can give us.

[redwingfan19 293]

What is the word on a guy like Eric Godard. He ain't going to do much except fight, but that's better than what a guy like Langfeld can give us.

He's and RFA and I think he re upped with Calgary. Would love to have a guy like that though.

Edited July 20, 2007 by redwingfan19

[vangvace 12]

It's just that I'm tired of another year going by where the team keeps getting smaller. Even looking at the prospects, very few are guys over 6 feet and 200 pounds.

That's because most of our prospects haven't hit puberty yet

Seriously though, that's what it looks like to me when I look at the NHL's draftees compared to other sports.

Enforcers in Motown = yes. Nothing charges up fans like a good fight. (Hockey is a sport, and us as fans are to be entertained right?)

good goal = cheering dies down once the puck gets dropped.

good fight = cheering lasts through the 2-5-10 and doesn't return to pre-fight levels

OT: I hope Laraque's schoulder heals well since he's showing to be less of a Worrell and more of an 80s style enforce now that he's left the Oilers.

[Mickeyisms Rule! 0]

"When he was in the box for a stupid penalty, how many times did the Wings get scored on? How many times did the opposing team look at him and his lack of skills in the fighting department and NOT become intimidated?"

ARE YOU REALLY THAT DULL? he had 20 pims, all FM, all were matching fm's you moron, he took 1 with him. becomes 4 on 4 which favors the wings in most situations.

"Is that why he NEVER played last year, despite the fact that Langfeld sucked?"

HE NEVER PLAYED BECAUSE for some reason there is an anti enforcer policy (sarcasm, had to point it out for the tools who would take it literally), or at least thats how it seems as of late. go jump on Hudkers d*ck, i am through trying to point out the obvious, but when one of our stars goes down i hope then you will do more then tear up and scream for a 3 game suspension

I'm actually thinking that the dull person is the one that delivers personal attacks and can't figure out how to use the quote feature. Let's take a look, shall we? Below are Norton's stats for all 6 games he played last year with the Wings.

My favorite is probably the one vs the Kings where his TOI was 31 seconds. Also they have him for 2 shifts, one of which was the one he got in the fight and the other while he skated back across the ice to the bench from the penalty box.

In the 6 games he played, he logged a total of 24:49 on the ice and 20 in the penalty box.

Game G A P +/- PIM PPG SHG Sh Sh % Shft TOI PPP

Oct 18, 2006 vs. ANA 0 1 1 1 5 0 0 0 5 3:15 0

Oct 16, 2006 vs. LAK 0 0 0 0 5 0 0 0 2 0:31 0

Oct 13, 2006 vs. BUF 0 0 0 0 5 0 0 2 0.0 5 3:15 0

Oct 11, 2006 vs. PHX 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 12 9:58 0

Oct 7, 2006 vs. PIT 0 0 0 0 5 0 0 0 8 5:16 0

Oct 5, 2006 vs. VAN 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 2:34 0

Oct 5 vs VAN, Loss 3-1

Oct 7 vs PIT, Win 2-0

Oct 11 vs PHX, Win 9-2

Oct 13 vs BUF. Loss (OT) 3-2

Oct 16 vs LA, Win 3-1

Oct 18 vs ANA, Loss 4-1 (Norton got assist on the only goal of the game and got a shoulder injury which put him on the DL)

6 games and we got 7 out of a possible 12 points.

Next 6 after our enforcer was on DL:

Oct 19 vs SJ, Loss 5-1

Oct 21 vs EDM, Loss 3-1

Oct 24 vs SJ, Win 2-1

Oct 27 vs DAL, Win 4-3

Oct 28 vs STL, Win 3-2

Nov 1 Vs CAL, Win 3-2

8 out of 12 possible points PLUS the Wings won the next 5 games following these matches all without a dedicated enforcer on the team.

Once again, I am not saying that we shouldn't have a bona fide tough guy on the team, just that it is not a requirement for winning.

In 1983, we drafted Probert, Kocur, and Grimson all in the same year as Yzerman. Considering that those were our last 3 real deal enforcers, its pretty obvious to me that we need to grow these guys in-house. With all the draft choices that have been traded away in the past dozen years or so, I don't think they felt that they could throw a draft choice away on an enforcer-type. Now that the organization is dedicated to growing talent in-house as opposed to signing overpriced FA's, maybe we'll see a change.

[Guest Crymson]

If you think this year's team had nothing to do with the lack of attendance you are simply lying to yourself

Uhh.. ok, let me break this down for you.

-Our team this year was possibly best in the NHL

-We had sellouts ALL SEASON

-The dropoff in sellouts coincided with the onset of higher-priced playoff tickets.

You're just grasping for straws now. Return to your stronger arguments.

What is the word on a guy like Eric Godard. He ain't going to do much except fight, but that's better than what a guy like Langfeld can give us.

A guy like Langfeld won't be on the team.

Langfeld was only playing while we had injured players.

[sticknmove 0]

wow you are getting stronger in your argument, chastising me for the way i choose to cite quotations in my posts. i dont know what you proved with your stats, against the kings 31 secs, NO SH*T sherlock he is on the team (*hence a enforcer) to do one thing, send a msg and set a tone. he does that by going afte Ivanas their HW, by doing that the message is loud and clear to the kings that if they do choose to run, cheapshot, anything with negative results to one of our skill guys then they will have to answer to someone. It happens this game that Norton set that tone early on and was not needed from then on out. My favorite stat is the one where he had ear 10 mins of ice time, no penalties and by my recolection kept up allright. you cannot argue that dressing an enforcer as a 13th forward or 7th dman will hurt point production, it wont. there will be nights also where there are no fights, and that is fine to, but it seems to me that it takes nothing away from the team and in fact adds another elements to the arsenal.

and can you please, since i mean you know more then they do, tell me why Lidstrom, Schnider, Zetterberg, etc all are quoted on the record as openly admiting apreciation for finally having a enforcer in the lineup?

*********ALSO Mickeyisms Rule! PLEASE give me your response to my statement regarding you claiming Nortons PM cost power play goals, I would love to hear it you twit****************

Edited July 20, 2007 by sticknmove

[Guest DetroitIan]

NO SH*T sherlock

Hahaha! I think I used to say that back in 1st grade. How articulate.

[skacore 2]

Uhh.. ok, let me break this down for you.

-Our team this year was possibly best in the NHL

-We had sellouts ALL SEASON

-The dropoff in sellouts coincided with the onset of higher-priced playoff tickets.

You're just grasping for straws now. Return to your stronger arguments.

Zzzzz talking to a brick wall... yes the Wings are highly skilled but they refuse to stick up for themselves and their team mates and a lot (not all) of the fans do not appreciate that. We didn't have sellouts all season, who are you kidding man? I'm not a stats guy, I watch games and I see the seats are EMPTY and the crowd is DEAD, why lie about that? The Joe was not an energized, full capacity arena throughout the year, that is not even up for debate. Playoff tickets cost more than regular season tickets? No way! This must be some sort of new experiment they are trying in sports... get real.

[therock48880 14]

In one of his playoff matchups, Buccigross talked about how the Wings were very talented, but didn't have much of a personality. I tend to agree. And I don't mean personality like we need Roenick or anything. But this team didn't have a strong identity or reputation yet. though in this last playoff run, I think they started to forge one.

I just gotta say, though he's not a very good fighter, I give Lilja a lot of props for dropping the gloves. Clearly fighting has not really been a part of his game in the past, so he's basically learning how to fight at the absolute highest level of the sport in order to help fill a role the team needs. That takes some balls.

I'd also like to clarify that my new obsession with wanting toughness has little to do with the UFAs we lost. I didn't really think Bert was the solution. He could've helped out if he stayed healthy and found his old game, but honestly I think the odds of that happening were pretty low.

It's just that I'm tired of another year going by where the team keeps getting smaller. Even looking at their top prospects, very few are guys over 6 feet and 200 pounds. You don't need giants out there, but the Wings are definitely undersized. When your whole team is that way, it puts you at a disadvantage. They're easier to knock around. They're easier to knock off the puck. They're easier to keep away from the front of the net.

It's not going to be any one player. It's gotta come through drafting and through signing. But holy hell, it'd be nice to see a step in that direction. Whether people realize it or not, the Wings have lost a lot of size over the years.

The Wings don't need a true enforcer, but for chrissakes let's get some size and toughness back on the team. Yes, Zetterberg and Dats and all the other guys proved they could take a beating and dished out some hits. That's great. I'm all for that. But it's not their primary role. You also need the big bodies out there banging away, and dropping the gloves if need be.

Great post Harold. This isn't an issue of picking up one or two players. One player isn't going to make the Wings bigger. This has to be a whole organizational effort. They've lost so much size in recent years that they are left with an extremely small team with no one that can stand up for anyone or deter opposing teams from cheapshots. There needs to be some element of unpredictability. That's why I'm in favor of an Avery signing. Yes, he'd take stupid penalties, however opponents would never be sure what he's going to do next. (by the way he doesn't address the size issue either).

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

wow you are getting stronger in your argument, chastising me for the way i choose to cite quotations in my posts. i dont know what you proved with your stats, against the kings 31 secs, NO SH*T sherlock he is on the team (*hence a enforcer) to do one thing, send a msg and set a tone. he does that by going afte Ivanas their HW, by doing that the message is loud and clear to the kings that if they do choose to run, cheapshot, anything with negative results to one of our skill guys then they will have to answer to someone. It happens this game that Norton set that tone early on and was not needed from then on out. My favorite stat is the one where he had ear 10 mins of ice time, no penalties and by my recolection kept up allright. you cannot argue that dressing an enforcer as a 13th forward or 7th dman will hurt point production, it wont. there will be nights also where there are no fights, and that is fine to, but it seems to me that it takes nothing away from the team and in fact adds another elements to the arsenal.

and can you please, since i mean you know more then they do, tell me why Lidstrom, Schnider, Zetterberg, etc all are quoted on the record as openly admiting apreciation for finally having a enforcer in the lineup?

*********ALSO Mickeyisms Rule! PLEASE give me your response to my statement regarding you claiming Nortons PM cost power play goals, I would love to hear it you twit****************

That's a great point you make about players wanting an enforcer in the lineup. I think that all of us here would be appreciative if there was an enforcer in the lineup, but it seems like many here are finding excuses for why there shouldn't be one. I wonder how many of the nay-sayers would change their mind on how enforcers are a liablity if Holland was to finally sign one?

[therock48880 14]

Uhh.. ok, let me break this down for you.

-Our team this year was possibly best in the NHL

-We had sellouts ALL SEASON

-The dropoff in sellouts coincided with the onset of higher-priced playoff tickets.

You're just grasping for straws now. Return to your stronger arguments.

A guy like Langfeld won't be on the team.

Sellouts, yes. Filled stadium? Hardly ever. There were empty seats at numerous Wings games this past season. In fact, up until the playoffs, the Joe was the quietest I had ever heard it. People just sat there. I attended games last season and the place was completely emotionless. On TV the crowd was never a factor. For me, it was alarming how little emotion the fans at "Hockeytown" showed this past season.

[Heaton 1]

The Wings don't need a true enforcer, but for chrissakes let's get some size and toughness back on the team. Yes, Zetterberg and Dats and all the other guys proved they could take a beating and dished out some hits. That's great. I'm all for that. But it's not their primary role. You also need the big bodies out there banging away, and dropping the gloves if need be.

We've been over this, but where we disagree is in your thinking that the Wings are pretty far away from winning the cup, even with going to the conference finals last year, I disagree, I believe going to the conference finals last year showed how close we actually are.

I think we have the right team makeup to win a cup, I'm not saying you're alluding to this, but you don't have to use Anaheim's philosophy to win a cup. Hell, look at Carolina, while they had more players who fought during the year, their team makeup really isn't that much different from ours when they won it all.

I've seen a lot of people say, one playoff year doesn't prove anything, alright, what if the Wings do the same thing next season or go further? Does that prove that they're "tough" enough? If we won the cup last year, would you be saying the same thing?

Look, you believe the team needs to get bigger and stronger to compete with the cup, I look at last year and believe that we have all the tools, we just need less injuries.

Sellouts, yes. Filled stadium? Hardly ever. There were empty seats at numerous Wings games this past season. In fact, up until the playoffs, the Joe was the quietest I had ever heard it. People just sat there. I attended games last season and the place was completely emotionless. On TV the crowd was never a factor. For me, it was alarming how little emotion the fans at "Hockeytown" showed this past season.

Pretty hard to get excited about seeing the Wings bulldoze through the regular season with little to no competition.

Edited July 20, 2007 by Heaton

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Look, you believe the team needs to get bigger and stronger to compete with the cup, I look at last year and believe that we have all the tools, we just need less injuries.

Since the Wings won't be adding size anytime soon, I hope I'm wrong and you're right.

[Kp-Wings 3]

Since the Wings won't be adding size anytime soon, I hope I'm wrong and you're right.

This is a statement I can totally agree with.

I'll bet you that if the Wings wanted to sign another defenseman if Markov leaves, and it came down to Andy Sutton or Janne Niinimaa, he'd pick Niinimaa. You know it's true.

[Heaton 1]

Since the Wings won't be adding size anytime soon, I hope I'm wrong and you're right.

Why make a statement like that when last year proved it was wrong? While we didn't keep Bertuzzi, Calder and we may potentially lose Markov what leads you to believew we're not going to be "adding size"?

Size is only good when the size comes with good hockey sense and the ability to contribute in our game plan.

This is a statement I can totally agree with.

I'll bet you that if the Wings wanted to sign another defenseman if Markov leaves, and it came down to Andy Sutton or Janne Niinimaa, he'd pick Niinimaa. You know it's true.

You're absolutely right and the reason is their salary demands.

I think it's funny that you and Lou seem to believe that Holland is the only one making these decisions on who the Wings go out and get.

Edited July 20, 2007 by Heaton