Grigorenko Article

[Opie 308]

The team has shown excitement with Howard, they are just letting him develop.

As for him not being the next Ozzie, that may be so, but in the cap era I think it is more likely that the will be.

I don't see Ryan Miller being the second coming of Roy, he was 20th last year in GAA and 16th in Sv%.

I understand that he is a local, however he is not a superstar goaltender, yet. He played on the best team in the league and was a middle of the road netminder this year. I have not seen a ton of Sabres games but what I did see I never saw him steal a game. Not saying he hasn't just I never saw it.

I have a biased toward J-Ho, I would love to see a Black Bear in the winged wheel.

So lets say the wings trade Howard (If Howard does not play in the NHL he will not garner much in trade.) and sign Miller, yes they will have cap room due to the departure of Lids, Cheli, Hasek, however you are losing two of arguably the top 10-15 Dmen in the league and you are going to replace them with Kindl, Meech, or Quincey. That is bad news. The wings would be better off keeping Howard signing Miller and playing with 2 goalies because that D will be weak.

Unless the wings go out and sign top tier dmen. That would then mean all of there money would be tied up in a goalie, a #1 dman (rafalski is too offensive oriented to be the #1 dman replacing lids), Zetterberg (deservedly so), and then what do they do with Cleary, Franzen, Flip, and the other young guys that will be looking for raises.

I say you give J-Ho the shot, if he falls on his face like Norton after a fight (Sorry had to do it) then you look for a goalie, but right now the wings have to be looking to bring from within. This kid has been highly touted by many scouts not just the wings scouts.

The salary cap will prevent all teams from being able to buy all the players they want, they will just be able to afford the ones they need!

I think they are better off letting Howard play, with a mentor like Ozzie a guy who as been there before and done that..

Edited July 20, 2007 by Opie

[TheCaptain19 49]

when is millers contract up?

[Opie 308]

when is millers contract up?

Free agent 09/10

[SouthernHockeyHoney 20]

Who the heck is "Stefan Kronwall"?

OH...RIGHT! He must be teammates with Rex Hudler and Bart Lebda.

[DreamsofHope 2]

Who the heck is "Stefan Kronwall"?

OH...RIGHT! He must be teammates with Rex Hudler and Bart Lebda.

[WhiteLightning91 105]

Who the heck is "Stefan Kronwall"?

OH...RIGHT! He must be teammates with Rex Hudler and Bart Lebda.

Nik's brother...he plays for the Maple Leafs.

[DreamsofHope 2]

Nik's brother...he plays for the Maple Leafs.

Yeah but he mentioned him like he was playing for us.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

The team has shown excitement with Howard, they are just letting him develop.

As for him not being the next Ozzie, that may be so, but in the cap era I think it is more likely that the will be.

I don't see Ryan Miller being the second coming of Roy, he was 20th last year in GAA and 16th in Sv%.

I understand that he is a local, however he is not a superstar goaltender, yet. He played on the best team in the league and was a middle of the road netminder this year. I have not seen a ton of Sabres games but what I did see I never saw him steal a game. Not saying he hasn't just I never saw it.

I have a biased toward J-Ho, I would love to see a Black Bear in the winged wheel.

So lets say the wings trade Howard (If Howard does not play in the NHL he will not garner much in trade.) and sign Miller, yes they will have cap room due to the departure of Lids, Cheli, Hasek, however you are losing two of arguably the top 10-15 Dmen in the league and you are going to replace them with Kindl, Meech, or Quincey. That is bad news. The wings would be better off keeping Howard signing Miller and playing with 2 goalies because that D will be weak.

Unless the wings go out and sign top tier dmen. That would then mean all of there money would be tied up in a goalie, a #1 dman (rafalski is too offensive oriented to be the #1 dman replacing lids), Zetterberg (deservedly so), and then what do they do with Cleary, Franzen, Flip, and the other young guys that will be looking for raises.

I say you give J-Ho the shot, if he falls on his face like Norton after a fight (Sorry had to do it) then you look for a goalie, but right now the wings have to be looking to bring from within. This kid has been highly touted by many scouts not just the wings scouts.

The salary cap will prevent all teams from being able to buy all the players they want, they will just be able to afford the ones they need!

I think they are better off letting Howard play, with a mentor like Ozzie a guy who as been there before and done that..

Miller perenially gets minimal help from his defense. Buffalo is an offense first team and has been for all of Millers tenure. Buffalos run and gun lineup of forwards the past few years has been the deepest and most productive, but their defense was mediocre at best. Any time Campbell is your #1, youre in trouble.

As for Miller stealing games, you apparently never watched Miller in a playoff game, because thats where he really earns his paycheck. He is a heart and soul guy that has top-notch confidence, has proved he can play with the big guys, steal big games (two playoffs in a row, now), AND hes not even in his prime yet. When Buffalo was pissing around earlier in the playoff season, Miller was the guy that kept them in the race.

Also, Chelios is not even close to a "top 10-15" defenseman in the NHL. Hes MAYBE a top "10-15" PK specialist in the league, and thats about it. I love the guy, but you are overrating him, and underselling Rafalski. Rafalski has more defensive awareness than the majority of players in the NHL and, outside of the elite defenseman (Lidstrom, Niedermayer, and Pronger), he is probably the most defensively reliable Dman who can still put up 50+ points a season. He will be a great mainstay for Detroit. Not to mention, with Babcock behind the bench, the defense by committee attitude will still be in place.

Finally, what does signing Miller have to do with trading Howard? Howard is 3rd string this year, and AT BEST will be splitting games in 08/09. Its very far-fetched to say that Howard will go from being an inconsistent AHLER to being Detroits #1 guy in just two seasons.

Also, Detroit is not automatically going to go with "Meech, Quincey, and Kindl." Why dont you read my post. But since you brought that up, where do you get off knowing how young guys like them are going to be playing in 2 years (likewise with Miller)? These are players who still havent reached their potential, and will likely only build on their strong outings.

Just in case, heres what our roster *might* look like in 09/10. I adjusted the cap modestly to 4M+ (about 54.3)

Grigorenko(1.5)-Datsyuk(6.7)-Homer(2.25)

Filppula(2.5)-Zetterberg(7)-UFA(4)

Abdelkader/Ryno/Mursak(.5)-Franzen(1.7)-Cleary(2)

Maltby(.88)-Draper(1.2)-Kopecky/depth UFA (.65)

Ellis/depth forward (.5)

Rafalski(6)-UFA(4)

Kronwall(3)-Lebda(.65)

Quincey(.65)-UFA(.85)/Kindl(.75)

Miller (6)

Howard(.85)

Total=53.5

Edited July 20, 2007 by YoungGuns1340

[Kp-Wings 3]

Free agent 09/10

Too bad we can't just re-up Dom until then.

Honestly, I'm skeptical about Howard, because he's inconsistant. And this is in the AHL, so why should I believe he will be NHL ready?

Hopefully he does have a great season in GR so I feel better about him being the starting goalie.

[captainsubtext 0]

Other options than Howard in 08/09 could be

Ilja Bryzgalov (UFA)

Christobal Huet (UFA),

Jaroslav Halak (RFA)

Al Montoya (RFA)

Of course there's Kiprusoff but that one could get ugly moneywise. Especially if you imagine the Devils looking for a successor to Martin Brodeur.

[Kp-Wings 3]

Bryzgalov sucks. No.

Huet is ok, and would be a decent stop-gap goalie to have. I wouldn't mind having him.

Halak isn't that good, and I highly doubt he'll be NHL by that point. Plus he's an RFA, and that would mean trading or making an offer sheet.

Montoya is totally overblown for what he's worth, and at this point, still hasn't played a single NHL game. Again, also an RFA, and would mean trading or offer sheets.

Huet would be my #1 choice, since I generally like him and think he's a pretty good goalie.

[Opie 308]

Miller perenially gets minimal help from his defense. Buffalo is an offense first team and has been for all of Millers tenure. Buffalos run and gun lineup of forwards the past few years has been the deepest and most productive, but their defense was mediocre at best. Any time Campbell is your #1, youre in trouble.

As for Miller stealing games, you apparently never watched Miller in a playoff game, because thats where he really earns his paycheck. He is a heart and soul guy that has top-notch confidence, has proved he can play with the big guys, steal big games (two playoffs in a row, now), AND hes not even in his prime yet. When Buffalo was pissing around earlier in the playoff season, Miller was the guy that kept them in the race.

Also, Chelios is not even close to a "top 10-15" defenseman in the NHL. Hes MAYBE a top "10-15" PK specialist in the league, and thats about it. I love the guy, but you are overrating him, and underselling Rafalski. Rafalski has more defensive awareness than the majority of players in the NHL and, outside of the elite defenseman (Lidstrom, Niedermayer, and Pronger), he is probably the most defensively reliable Dman who can still put up 50+ points a season. He will be a great mainstay for Detroit. Not to mention, with Babcock behind the bench, the defense by committee attitude will still be in place.

Finally, what does signing Miller have to do with trading Howard? Howard is 3rd string this year, and AT BEST will be splitting games in 08/09. Its very far-fetched to say that Howard will go from being an inconsistent AHLER to being Detroits #1 guy in just two seasons.

Also, Detroit is not automatically going to go with "Meech, Quincey, and Kindl." Why dont you read my post. But since you brought that up, where do you get off knowing how young guys like them are going to be playing in 2 years (likewise with Miller)? These are players who still havent reached their potential, and will likely only build on their strong outings.

Just in case, heres what our roster *might* look like in 09/10. I adjusted the cap modestly to 4M+ (about 54.3)

Grigorenko(1.5)-Datsyuk(6.7)-Homer(2.25)

Filppula(2.5)-Zetterberg(7)-UFA(4)

Abdelkader/Ryno/Mursak(.5)-Franzen(1.7)-Cleary(2)

Maltby(.88)-Draper(1.2)-Kopecky/depth UFA (.65)

Ellis/depth forward (.5)

Rafalski(6)-UFA(4)

Kronwall(3)-Lebda(.65)

Quincey(.65)-UFA(.85)/Kindl(.75)

Miller (6)

Howard(.85)

Total=53.5

First off, your first sentence how can a guy who has played two years in the league, unless you count a 3 game season and a 15 game season as years in the league, have any perennial stats?

Secondly I admitted having not seen many of his games.

As much as I have said that the young guys will not be good in two years you are saying they will be.

Do we really need to start going through the list of potential Dman that fell flat on their faces like Kuznetsov?

I was trying to explain the gap being left by Lids and Cheli, the 4 guys you have listed; if the wings were able to play 2 of them to account for one player on the ice they would still not total the talent of Cheli or Lids. The wings will need to sign a 3-4 mil dman, especially if Kronwall can not learn to stay healthy.

If you think in any way shape or form that potential roster you put up wins a Stanley cup, some one has been putting LSD in your cheerios. Leaving the team with .9m to spend barring injuries, that team struggles to make the playoffs at best.

But to end this right here and now, my post was complete speculation and guess work, I never said that anything I posted was the end all and be all of the truth. I just like to talk about the wings.

I just expressed my opinion, that signing Miller will be too expensive and leave the team depleted, which you helped prove my point by posting those atrocious line combos. (that sounded like I was calling you the name, the lines would be bad, regardless if you posted them or they actually made the ice). That was my point in posting not that Miller won't be great, as I posted the word "Yet" in my post, however that it would be too costly and leave the team with no options.

As for the Cheli thing maybe I was overestimating him, however he is perennially one of the best Defensive dman in the league, he does not garner much attention because he puts up very minuscule offensive numbers but he is a beast in his own zone. Perhaps I should have re worded my post.

The Howard trade to get Miller, was a hypothetical as I state "So lets say."

Now before you smash this posting let me tell you a little about me before this unintentionally offends you.

My posts are all opinion based and I stopped putting that at the top of my posts, apparently I shouldn't have. I am not a member of the organization, and I very rarely post "we" when referring to the Detroit Red Wings. Not because I don't support them 100% but because I am not a part of the team. So therefore I know nothing of the inside workings that the rest of the public world does not. I would love to see J-ho in a winged wheel, however if a better option is available, then go for it, however in this day and age with the cap in place financial concerns must be taken very seriously, and Dats, Z, and Rafalski will eat up a lot of cap room in the coming 5-7 years.

If you want to debate this than yeah lets do it, but I am not trying to create nor getting involved in flame wars.

[Henkka 0]

Grigorenko played at practice game for Salavat Yulaev against slovakian team Skalica. Salavat won 3-1, Grigs didn't score at the game, but scored at the practise shootout at the game's end.

[Offsides 21]

I really don't get the big deal about Grigorenko...or how everyone seems to think he can come in and be on our top line, but i do hope he's all better from his injuries now, and he gets to play some this year and contribute. I'm all for more talented Russians on the team.

As for the goalie situation (don't know how this became a goalie thread lol) I think it's pretty up in the air. I don't really see Howard ever being a #1 here though.

[Kp-Wings 3]

I really don't get the big deal about Grigorenko...or how everyone seems to think he can come in and be on our top line, but i do hope he's all better from his injuries now, and he gets to play some this year and contribute. I'm all for more talented Russians on the team.

Oh, but Hudler is?

As for the goalie situation (don't know how this became a goalie thread lol) I think it's pretty up in the air. I don't really see Howard ever being a #1 here though.

That I can agree with you with. Howard hasn't had a truly great season under his belt to be the automatic future starting goalie here in Detroit.

[Offsides 21]

Oh, but Hudler is?

That I can agree with you with. Howard hasn't had a truly great season under his belt to be the automatic future starting goalie here in Detroit.

I never said that Hudler was a first liner..and to even play where he's playing he's had to play some games under his belt...he wasn't just automatically on the second line...he had barely any minutes before recently.

[Kp-Wings 3]

I never said that Hudler was a first liner..and to even play where he's playing he's had to play some games under his belt...he wasn't just automatically on the second line...he had barely any minutes before recently.

I was kidding.

[Offsides 21]

I was kidding.

i'm so proud of you I didn't know you knew how

[irishtemper14+25 11]

i am really excited to see grigs, i would love to go to the camp in august or w/e when he comes over and see if the hype is true...i guess we'll find out soon enough

[Kp-Wings 3]

i'm so proud of you I didn't know you knew how

Oh come on now! I have a sense of humor.

It just doesn't show whenever Fedorov is involved. I'm to trying to grow past that though.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

First off, your first sentence how can a guy who has played two years in the league, unless you count a 3 game season and a 15 game season as years in the league, have any perennial stats?

Secondly I admitted having not seen many of his games.

As much as I have said that the young guys will not be good in two years you are saying they will be.

Do we really need to start going through the list of potential Dman that fell flat on their faces like Kuznetsov?

I was trying to explain the gap being left by Lids and Cheli, the 4 guys you have listed; if the wings were able to play 2 of them to account for one player on the ice they would still not total the talent of Cheli or Lids. The wings will need to sign a 3-4 mil dman, especially if Kronwall can not learn to stay healthy.

If you think in any way shape or form that potential roster you put up wins a Stanley cup, some one has been putting LSD in your cheerios. Leaving the team with .9m to spend barring injuries, that team struggles to make the playoffs at best.

But to end this right here and now, my post was complete speculation and guess work, I never said that anything I posted was the end all and be all of the truth. I just like to talk about the wings.

I just expressed my opinion, that signing Miller will be too expensive and leave the team depleted, which you helped prove my point by posting those atrocious line combos. (that sounded like I was calling you the name, the lines would be bad, regardless if you posted them or they actually made the ice). That was my point in posting not that Miller won't be great, as I posted the word "Yet" in my post, however that it would be too costly and leave the team with no options.

As for the Cheli thing maybe I was overestimating him, however he is perennially one of the best Defensive dman in the league, he does not garner much attention because he puts up very minuscule offensive numbers but he is a beast in his own zone. Perhaps I should have re worded my post.

The Howard trade to get Miller, was a hypothetical as I state "So lets say."

Now before you smash this posting let me tell you a little about me before this unintentionally offends you.

My posts are all opinion based and I stopped putting that at the top of my posts, apparently I shouldn't have. I am not a member of the organization, and I very rarely post "we" when referring to the Detroit Red Wings. Not because I don't support them 100% but because I am not a part of the team. So therefore I know nothing of the inside workings that the rest of the public world does not. I would love to see J-ho in a winged wheel, however if a better option is available, then go for it, however in this day and age with the cap in place financial concerns must be taken very seriously, and Dats, Z, and Rafalski will eat up a lot of cap room in the coming 5-7 years.

If you want to debate this than yeah lets do it, but I am not trying to create nor getting involved in flame wars.

First of all, you must be the one consuming LSD filled cheerios because

1) Chelios is not one of the best defensive defenseman in the league. He is a great PKer, but that's as far as it goes. Theres a reason why he only sees big minutes when the Dman unit is depleted. (See 07 playoffs) He has plenty of lapses in the defensive zone that have cost Detroit many times.

2) Do you even know who Miller is?? First of all, he has played NHL games in 4 seasons, accumulated 129 games to his name, has already played 2 straight years as starter (48+ games each time) and has perennial - "yearly" since you don't seem to understand that 4 years=a series of years - stats of 2.72 and .909 and has YET to reach his prime. IF/when Detroit signs Miller itd likely be to a 4-5 year contract,which would put Miller in the midst of peak goaltending years: 29-33/34.

3) A separate point should be made simply for Millers playoff outings, because Ryan turns it up several notches in the playoffs and has for the past two years been the Sabres MVP in the playoffs, even with Briere and Drury hangin around. He has the swagger and competitveness that has cost Detroit recently in the playoffs. In addition to that, Miller has, through his entire 4 year career, played with a mediocre-at-best defensive unit in front of him. I realize some people don't understand this concept, since Detroit hasn't had a bona fide franchise goaltender in years, but having an elite goaltender means you don't have to have a D corps that is headlined by Lidstrom.

4) Are you blind? Because I CLEARLY accounted for a 4M winger and a 4M UFA Dman. The difference between a roster 2 years from now and todays roster is A- the forward lines would be better given that Hank, Datsyuk, Homer would still be there, Grigorenko and Flip would have 2-3 years under their belts, and there would be an additional forward of the 2nd line variety costing roughly 4M - think Jason Blake, David Legwand, Michael Ryder, Erik Cole. As for the Dman, you can consider a guy like Kuba, Stuart, Hannan, Norstrom, Mitchell. On top of that, mock rosters are always a give and take. UFA vets might take the place of rookies, and all of a sudden youd think the roster is complete just because you cant conceive of the fact that players might actually improve and not all end up like Kuznetsov.

5) Finally, my cap estimate was a modest raise. At the rate in which the Canadian Dollar is going, soon to match that of the US, and the continued competitiveness of the NHL and (at least) superficial improvement of big market teams, namely Philly and New York, the cap would probably be higher, which is why I left roughly 1M in cap space.

Edited August 4, 2007 by YoungGuns1340

[arnoldbuck 0]

As with some others, sorry to stray away from the original topic, but commenting on the above statements about Miller. With Buffalo gettin raped by UFA, they will have more than an abundance of money to sign him when the time comes. Obviously there is more to signing than just money, players probably enjoy going to good teams, but Buffalo will be able to offer some good coin.

[eva unit zero 271]

Dragging us back on topic...

[/font]

It looks from that article like our second line will have Datsyuk and Grigorenko. Which means our first line will have Zetterberg. I would expect to see lines something like the following, to start the season anyway:

Holmstrom/Zetterberg/Samuelsson

Filppula/Datsyuk/Grigorenko

Cleary/Hudler/Franzen

Maltby/Draper/Drake

[Turretin 0]

Dragging us back on topic...

[/font]

It looks from that article like our second line will have Datsyuk and Grigorenko. Which means our first line will have Zetterberg. I would expect to see lines something like the following, to start the season anyway:

Holmstrom/Zetterberg/Samuelsson

Filppula/Datsyuk/Grigorenko

Cleary/Hudler/Franzen

Maltby/Draper/Drake

The purpose of Drake was to mentor Kopecky. My guess is that Maltby and Kopecky will split a little bit of time. Maltby is a cheap/experienced reserve and I think Holland probably let him know that when he re-signed for so many years.

[swedishconnection 36]

Dragging us back on topic...

[/font]

It looks from that article like our second line will have Datsyuk and Grigorenko. Which means our first line will have Zetterberg. I would expect to see lines something like the following, to start the season anyway:

Holmstrom/Zetterberg/Samuelsson

Filppula/Datsyuk/Grigorenko

Cleary/Hudler/Franzen

Maltby/Draper/Drake

I really like the looks of those lines so far... except sammy being on the top line. BARF. Otherwise our second line isnt nearly as hopeless as everyone has made it seem all summer long. Flip moving up? I cant wait to see what he can do. Zata junior, anyone?

Third line looks solid too. Keeps huds from getting premier time (which is okay in my book for now), but he gets his own line... Take it or leave it. Plus 2 proven (more or less) physical guys, both of which can add scoring depth.

Not nearly as hopeless as some have thought. Trim the fat from last season, let new legs move up the chart, and add a solid puck moving Dman. Me likey.