How many games is enough to call a spade a spade?

[bringback91 2]

I'm not sure who you're referring to, but I have no problem admitting a mistake when any Red Wing makes one. I was the first to call out his OT mistake last season against the Blackhawks that lead to the game winner.

Don't worry NFM, not pointing anyone out, it's about 95% of the board and Wings fans in general. At least this makes two of us who can admit it.

[Mickeyisms Rule! 0]

Maybe the sky IS falling. But I don't think that this short way into the season is really time to panic.

Bringing up Grigs is not the answer. The guy has been invisible so far for the Griffins. 3 games 0 points and a +1.

This season is starting to be the season that everyone thought last season was going to be.

I think that we've been spoiled for so long that it hurts more when things like this happen.

s***, now I'm typing like the guy with Bill Clement ias his avatar!

[bringback91 2]

Maybe the sky IS falling. But I don't think that this short way into the season is really time to panic.

Bringing up Grigs is not the answer. The guy has been invisible so far for the Griffins. 3 games 0 points and a +1.

This season is starting to be the season that everyone thought last season was going to be.

I think that we've been spoiled for so long that it hurts more when things like this happen.

s***, now I'm typing like the guy with Bill Clement ias his avatar!

I agree panicing now is silly.

Just wondering though, lets just pretend that DZH continues to be the only scoring threat on the team outside of Draper, who if anyone would you bring up? How would your lines look? Cause I'm willing to bet one line is only going to be able to do so much, and if you only have one line going your going to lose more than win.

edit* my lines* when healthy

Dats-Z-Homer

Grigs-Cleary-Draper

Hudler-Flip-Franzen

Malts-Drake-Kopy/Downey/Ellis

Edited October 16, 2007 by bringback91

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Maybe the sky IS falling. But I don't think that this short way into the season is really time to panic.

Bringing up Grigs is not the answer. The guy has been invisible so far for the Griffins. 3 games 0 points and a +1.

This season is starting to be the season that everyone thought last season was going to be.

I think that we've been spoiled for so long that it hurts more when things like this happen.

s***, now I'm typing like the guy with Bill Clement ias his avatar!

Record 7 Games Into the Season

2006/2007: 5-0-2, 12 Points

2007/2008: 4-2-1, 9 Points

Record 12 Games Into the Season

2006/2007: 5-2-4, 14 Points

2007/2008: Unkown

Wait until we're atleast 12 games into the season before an "accurate" record will reveal itself.

[Offsides 21]

I haven't felt bad about the team, just that they need to get their groove...everything's been shaken up a lot, you know?

And we have lots of rookie-types playing big roles...

Edited October 16, 2007 by Offsides

[Mickeyisms Rule! 0]

I agree panicing now is silly.

Just wondering though, lets just pretend that DZH continues to be the only scoring threat on the team outside of Draper, who if anyone would you bring up? How would your lines look? Cause I'm willing to bet one line is only going to be able to do so much, and if you only have one line going your going to lose more than win.

As it stands now there really isn't anyone that I would bring up. I would split up D and Z. Moce Flip up with Datsyuk and have Z center a line with Cleary and Sammy if he isn't injured, or Franzen when he has recovered, or Hudler if all else fails on the other side.

The new guys need to either step up or step out of the way. I think Babs has done them a disservice by not sticking with his original intention of having D and Z separated. They've got to play sometime!

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I'm not sure who you're referring to, but I have no problem admitting a mistake when any Red Wing makes one. I was the first to call out his OT mistake last season against the Blackhawks that lead to the game winner.

Don't get me wrong Mac, I've never blamed Lidstrom for that goal. I agree, Rafaski took a chance trying to keep that bouncing puck at the line. He made a mistake and it got by him. As for Lids escaping all criticism. I've never engaged in that debate. I see Lids on the ice for many, many goals against. Primarily because he's always on the friggin ice against the best players. He's the best there is but even he makes mistakes. I thought that was a mistake. I wouldn't have played it that way. I don't fault him for the goal, I just think he should've played the pass. In the end, you have to commit to one guy or the other or to stopping the pass. Lids didn't do either. You can call me crazy but he couldn't get Niedermayer out of the play, he didn't take Pahlsson out of the play and he didn't block the passing lane. As for it being a great pass. It was a saucer pass over his stick as has been done a million times to defensman who leave that option open for the attacker. If Lids takes away the pass, Niedermayer has to shoot. If Lids lays his body down, Niedermayer probably shoots. Nothing stopped Lidstrom from going down feet first towards the goal. He doesn't play that way I know. Its just how I would've played it in that scenario. Lot easier for Dom to focus on Niedermayer shooting than to guess about hugging the post or cheating to scoot across the crease for the potential pass.

I don't want to get into a pissing contest about it but Lids stopped nobody on the play. He played the middle of the road and gambled that the pass wouldn't get through. Just my 2 cents.

[Guest jaytan]

I agree completely with the original post here. Frankly, I think we'll be in trouble come playoff time if we don't make a personnel move. And I'm not talking about at the trade deadline. Let's look for an earlier deal so we can shake things up, let the players know we mean business, and let whoever is acquired have enough time to adjust and fit in.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Don't get me wrong Mac, I've never blamed Lidstrom for that goal. I agree, Rafaski took a chance trying to keep that bouncing puck at the line. He made a mistake and it got by him. As for Lids escaping all criticism. I've never engaged in that debate. I see Lids on the ice for many, many goals against. Primarily because he's always on the friggin ice against the best players. He's the best there is but even he makes mistakes. I thought that was a mistake. I wouldn't have played it that way. I don't fault him for the goal, I just think he should've played the pass. In the end, you have to commit to one guy or the other or to stopping the pass. Lids didn't do either. You can call me crazy but he couldn't get Niedermayer out of the play, he didn't take Pahlsson out of the play and he didn't block the passing lane. As for it being a great pass. It was a saucer pass over his stick as has been done a million times to defensman who leave that option open for the attacker. If Lids takes away the pass, Niedermayer has to shoot. If Lids lays his body down, Niedermayer probably shoots. Nothing stopped Lidstrom from going down feet first towards the goal. He doesn't play that way I know. Its just how I would've played it in that scenario. Lot easier for Dom to focus on Niedermayer shooting than to guess about hugging the post or cheating to scoot across the crease for the potential pass.

I don't want to get into a pissing contest about it but Lids stopped nobody on the play. He played the middle of the road and gambled that the pass wouldn't get through. Just my 2 cents.

I still think if you watch the replay Gordie, it was a breakaway when Lids started chasing down Niedermayer. It didn't become a 2 on 1 until after Pahlsson outraced whoever that was next to him at center ice. Lids has got to stop the breakaway first, then try and react when it became a two on one.

I don't know that he even had time to dive and take away the pass. Even if he did, Niedermayer could just as easily put on the breaks and then it's a 2 on none. Niedermayer smartly got that pass away right as Lidstrom caught up and was trying to make the play.

I'm not saying Lids doesn't make mistakes. I just don't think this was one of them.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

I think a big quick fix would be to switch up that top pairing of Lidstrom and Raffy. Lilja has played well with Lidstrom in the past. Kronwall would likely do the same. Either Lids with Kronner, or Lids with Lilja. But since it seems Lids has lost some speed, and Kronner and Raffy have pretty good speed (we all know Lilja skates in cement), Id really like to see Lidstrom-Kronwall, and Raffy-Lilja. I also think that would give Nik Jr. a ton of confidence.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Record 7 Games Into the Season

2006/2007: 5-0-2, 12 Points

2007/2008: 4-2-1, 9 Points

Record 12 Games Into the Season

2006/2007: 5-2-4, 14 Points

2007/2008: Unkown

Wait until we're atleast 12 games into the season before an "accurate" record will reveal itself.

3 wasn't enough. 7 isn't enough. 12, may be enough , sweet. let's see who, if anybody picks it up in the next 2 weeks.

Maybe, Flip and Huddles will start to look like the 20+ goal guys the experts here pegged them to be this season.

Of course 12 won't be enough games. Then it'll be 1/4 of the season and that won't be enough because guy's aren't in "mid-season form". Then we'll take a look after the all-star break. Finally, when the trade deadline comes and Holland says, we are a one trick pony so we just acquired "sniper xyz" for a 2nd and Jonathan Ericsson maybe then it'll have been "enough" games to make an accurate prediction.

I'm sorry, they might as well put you, me and Opie out there and try to make everyone believe we're going to be 20+ goal guys and 40+ point guys.

I'll gladly admit i'm wrong if things change. this is me holding my breath

I still think if you watch the replay Gordie, it was a breakaway when Lids started chasing down Niedermayer. It didn't become a 2 on 1 until after Pahlsson outraced whoever that was next to him at center ice. Lids has got to stop the breakaway first, then try and react when it became a two on one.

I don't know that he even had time to dive and take away the pass. Even if he did, Niedermayer could just as easily put on the breaks and then it's a 2 on none. Niedermayer smartly got that pass away right as Lidstrom caught up and was trying to make the play.

I'm not saying Lids doesn't make mistakes. I just don't think this was one of them.

Fair enough. I just think i'm right (as always) and that I'm better than Lidstrom!!!!! Stoopid lidstrom!!

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Fair enough. I just think i'm right (as always) and that I'm better than Lidstrom!!!!! Stoopid lidstrom!!

Well then suit up dammit! The wings could use another Dman, especially one who drops the gloves.

[bringback91 2]

I'm sorry, they might as well put you, me and Opie out there and try to make everyone believe we're going to be 20+ goal guys and 40+ point guys.

I think it should be you, Detroit#1 and KP wings, cause lord knows the Wings NEED GRIT!!

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I think it should be you, Detroit#1 and KP wings, cause lord knows the Wings NEED GRIT!!

Oh, what I wouldn't give to just square up against Tootoo, just once. Oh wait, he wouldn't square up, let me change that. Oh, what I wouldn't give to get sucker punched in the face before the fight starts

Although, I don't know how tough I am anymore. My 2 year old smacked me on the shin the other day with her baby doll stroller and I fell like a sack of potatoes.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Don't get me wrong Mac, I've never blamed Lidstrom for that goal. I agree, Rafaski took a chance trying to keep that bouncing puck at the line. He made a mistake and it got by him. As for Lids escaping all criticism. I've never engaged in that debate. I see Lids on the ice for many, many goals against. Primarily because he's always on the friggin ice against the best players. He's the best there is but even he makes mistakes. I thought that was a mistake. I wouldn't have played it that way. I don't fault him for the goal, I just think he should've played the pass. In the end, you have to commit to one guy or the other or to stopping the pass. Lids didn't do either. You can call me crazy but he couldn't get Niedermayer out of the play, he didn't take Pahlsson out of the play and he didn't block the passing lane. As for it being a great pass. It was a saucer pass over his stick as has been done a million times to defensman who leave that option open for the attacker. If Lids takes away the pass, Niedermayer has to shoot. If Lids lays his body down, Niedermayer probably shoots. Nothing stopped Lidstrom from going down feet first towards the goal. He doesn't play that way I know. Its just how I would've played it in that scenario. Lot easier for Dom to focus on Niedermayer shooting than to guess about hugging the post or cheating to scoot across the crease for the potential pass.

I don't want to get into a pissing contest about it but Lids stopped nobody on the play. He played the middle of the road and gambled that the pass wouldn't get through. Just my 2 cents.

I don't want to get in a pissing match either, but once again you've failed to address my point about the Ducks players coming in at completely different speeds which made this play anything but a normal 2-on-1. When Nieds made that pass he was barely moving forward while Pahlsson was going Mac 10. If Lids had gone down, whats to say he doesn't lift the puck over him with the same type of pass, or even delay to let Lids slide out of position?

I still think if you watch the replay Gordie, it was a breakaway when Lids started chasing down Niedermayer. It didn't become a 2 on 1 until after Pahlsson outraced whoever that was next to him at center ice. Lids has got to stop the breakaway first, then try and react when it became a two on one.

I don't know that he even had time to dive and take away the pass. Even if he did, Niedermayer could just as easily put on the breaks and then it's a 2 on none. Niedermayer smartly got that pass away right as Lidstrom caught up and was trying to make the play.

I'm not saying Lids doesn't make mistakes. I just don't think this was one of them.

Bingo!

[WestWing 0]

I still think if you watch the replay Gordie, it was a breakaway when Lids started chasing down Niedermayer. It didn't become a 2 on 1 until after Pahlsson outraced whoever that was next to him at center ice. Lids has got to stop the breakaway first, then try and react when it became a two on one.

I don't know that he even had time to dive and take away the pass. Even if he did, Niedermayer could just as easily put on the breaks and then it's a 2 on none. Niedermayer smartly got that pass away right as Lidstrom caught up and was trying to make the play.

I'm not saying Lids doesn't make mistakes. I just don't think this was one of them.

One perspective from being at the game last night --

Lidstrom was put into trouble on this play. With Niedermayer charging the point hard, Rafalski has to either get the puck up against the boards (so that Rob's only option is to chip it out near center), or lose the zone and get everyone re-grouped. He made a risky play and it burned him -- just like Stuart got burned when he couldn't control the puck and lost it to Draper on the shorty in L.A.

Hasek looked, to quote Don Cherry, "like a water buffalo wallowing around in a swap" last night. On this particular play, he was way too far in the net, and it was a very easy goal for Pahlsson. He had tons of time and lots of net to look at. If there was anything the Ducks appeared to learn offensively from our season opener, it's that you shoot on Dom, don't bother making moves (like they tried to in the shooutout) -- his positional play is weak but his coverage after dekes is still solid.

As for Nick, my best guess is that he is assuming Rafalski is getting back to cover anyone else that is joining Niedermayer on the rush. In theory, Rafalski had plenty of time to get back and couldn't do it.

Overall, it is now almost impossible to watch the Wings play at Honda center. They have lost 5 of the last 6 games there, and lost the last 2 of the last 3 after going into the 3rd period all tied up. It's the same story that will continue to plague this team until we can figure out WTF these refs are going to hold us accountable for so we can play 5-on-5 for a change...

Damn!

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

3 wasn't enough. 7 isn't enough. 12, may be enough , sweet. let's see who, if anybody picks it up in the next 2 weeks.

Maybe, Flip and Huddles will start to look like the 20+ goal guys the experts here pegged them to be this season.

You're just not looking at the big picture here. We hear this kind of complaining all the time. We heard it last season, the season before, and the season before that. The Wings will go through slumps where they aren't playing as well, and the entire board freaks out. Then, all of sudden the Wings go on a 4 game winning streak and all of a sudden they are gods of Hockey, and as a result all of this sort of talk subsides. The point is that the Wings aren't sitting at 1-4-2, they are 4-2-1, on top of their division, and have yet to even play solid hockey.

Should the Wings go after a 2nd line sniper right now: Yes. Will the Wings be out of playoff contention if they don't: No.

Edited October 16, 2007 by Never Forget Mac #25

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

You're just not looking at the big picture here. We hear this kind of complaining all the time. We heard it last season, the season before, and the season before that. The Wings will go through slumps where they aren't playing as well, and the entire board freaks out. Then, all of sudden the Wings go on a 4 game winning streak and all of a sudden they are gods of Hockey, and as a result all of this sort of talk subsides. The point is that the Wings aren't sitting at 1-4-2, they are 4-2-1, on top of their division, and have yet to even play their best hockey.

That's definitely true.

I'm less worried about the defensive end, to be honest. They work because of team defense, and that's more about not making the bad play. Rookie mistakes, mental errors, etc. That should improve as the season goes on.

But man, that second line (or lack thereof) definitely has me concerned. Whether it's Cleary, Franzen, Flip, Hudler. A couple of those guys are going to have to step up and score goals.

And honestly Franzen will score some, but that's not really his full role. So then it comes to Sammy who only scored what, 14 goals last year? and two 23 year olds in their second year in the NHL. Unless Cleary gets put on the second line.

[Guest jaytan]

Oh, what I wouldn't give to just square up against Tootoo, just once. Oh wait, he wouldn't square up, let me change that....

I'd take the league minimum to suit up for one minute, go up to Tootoo and bash him in the head with my stick, as long as I didn't have to pay the fine and I was guaranteed nobody'd sue me or press charges.

Just puttin' that out there in case anybody's looking.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

You're just not looking at the big picture here. We hear this kind of complaining all the time. We heard it last season, the season before, and the season before that. The Wings will go through slumps where they aren't playing as well, and the entire board freaks out. Then, all of sudden the Wings go on a 4 game winning streak and all of a sudden they are gods of Hockey, and as a result all of this sort of talk subsides. The point is that the Wings aren't sitting at 1-4-2, they are 4-2-1, on top of their division, and have yet to even play solid hockey.

Should the Wings go after a 2nd line sniper right now: Yes. Will the Wings be out of playoff contention if they don't: No.

Yeah, but up until this year you never heard it from me. I've long been an optimist and defender of the team on nearly every front. Let's just say I feel differently this year than in year's past. The big picture for me is I don't believe Filpulla or Hudler are going to put up good enough numbers. What do you want me to do Mac? I watch them play for years now and I don't see it in them. Should I lie about it or not voice my opinion that I don't think they're strong enough right now to provide second line scoring nor do I think they're going to be able to do it 50 games from now or when it counts come playoff time?

That's definitely true.

I'm less worried about the defensive end, to be honest. They work because of team defense, and that's more about not making the bad play. Rookie mistakes, mental errors, etc. That should improve as the season goes on.

But man, that second line (or lack thereof) definitely has me concerned. Whether it's Cleary, Franzen, Flip, Hudler. A couple of those guys are going to have to step up and score goals.

And honestly Franzen will score some, but that's not really his full role. So then it comes to Sammy who only scored what, 14 goals last year? and two 23 year olds in their second year in the NHL. Unless Cleary gets put on the second line.

Your comments about the 2nd line are exactly why I started this thread. Sorry to Mac if I don't feel all hunky dory that Flip, Franzen or Huddles is going to be a big time, 2nd line scorer at this level. I'm no Hakan Anderson (sp?) but I know what I see now and what I saw last year.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Yeah, but up until this year you never heard it from me. I've long been an optimist and defender of the team on nearly every front. Let's just say I feel differently this year than in year's past. The big picture for me is I don't believe Filpulla or Hudler are going to put up good enough numbers. What do you want me to do Mac? I watch them play for years now and I don't see it in them. Should I lie about it or not voice my opinion that I don't think they're strong enough right now to provide second line scoring nor do I think they're going to be able to do it 50 games from now or when it counts come playoff time?

I'm not asking anyone to withhold their feelings, but lets put some substance into those thoughts. You're scared about the Wings offense........so give me some ideas on what to do about it rather than just coming here and saying this team doesn't have it. Or atleast give me reasoning why the Wings are going to be so much worse off without only 1 of our 12 starting forwards that started last season that actually made an impact (I.E. Williams or Norton). Scoring/depth up front was a problem then, same as it is now.

If you didn't know, I've been one of those stating before the season even started that the Wings should make a play for a guy like Forsberg. A second-line proven scorer, that will cost the team nothing in regards to pics/players.

If you just want to come on here and complain about the lack of production up front (which we all can see plain as crystal), then you're just the kettle calling the pot black.

Sorry to Mac if I don't feel all hunky dory that Flip, Franzen or Huddles is going to be a big time, 2nd line scorer at this level. I'm no Hakan Anderson (sp?) but I know what I see now and what I saw last year.

What, and you think I do? But lets talk solutions rather than doom and gloom.

Edited October 16, 2007 by Never Forget Mac #25

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I don't want to get in a pissing match either, but once again you've failed to address my point about the Ducks players coming in at completely different speeds which made this play anything but a normal 2-on-1. When Nieds made that pass he was barely moving forward while Pahlsson was going Mac 10. If Lids had gone down, whats to say he doesn't lift the puck over him with the same type of pass, or even delay to let Lids slide out of position?

Bingo!

Mac, i'm not failing to address anything intentionally. I've been at work all day. I haven't rewatched the clip since last night. I'll have to look at it again to see what you're saying. Going from memory, it sure looked like Lids could've eliminated the passing lane had he chosen to do just that. Whether there should have been help coming on the backcheck or not I personally wouldn't have assumed it was there. That's just me. Maybe he didn't see Pahlsson at all but with Niedermayer looking Pahlsson's way and opening up his shoulders towards Lids, that would lead me to believe as a defender that he's looking pass first, so eliminate the pass. As I said, i'll have to view it again but I think you're over analyzing the play for whatever reason. It seemed pretty straightforward to me. Player A with puck is slowing down, not charging hard to the net for his own opportunity, with his body position suggesting a crossing pass, me, i'm gonna layout on that one. If he can lob it a good foot over me my goalie might just have enough time to read that and make the save. If the guy can do that good for him. It's a heck of alot harder to hit a streaking guy with a lob pass over a body than it is to saucer one 3 inches off the ice over a stick. If he wants to stop on a dime and let me sail by, then so be it. Either way i'm delaying what he wants to do just enough to maybe disrupt that play. Whatever, doesn't matter. I have my opinion, you have yours. The pass got through and the puck went into the net. We lost. Time to move on to the next game to watch our 2nd line rack up the points. YEE HAW! My point of starting the entire thread was about our lack of depth scoring. The lids play was just a side note b/c as a dman it stuck in my mind. If you think i'm nuts then so be it. It's not a big deal.

I'm not asking anyone to withhold their feelings, but lets put some substance into those thoughts. You're scared about the Wings offense........so give me some ideas on what to do about it rather than just coming here and saying this team doesn't have it. Or atleast give me reasoning why the Wings are going to be so much worse off without only 1 of our 12 starting forwards from last season (Aside from Lang, the Wings offense looked the exact same last year aside from Williams). Scoring/depth up front was a problem then, same as it is now.

If you didn't know, I've been one of those stating before the season even started that the Wings should make a play for a guy like Forsberg. A second-line proven scorer, that will cost the team nothing in regards to pics/players.

If you just want to come on here and complain about the lack of production up front (which we all can see plain as crystal), then you're just the kettle calling the pot black.

What, and you think I do? But lets talk solutions rather than doom and gloom.

If we want to talk solutions we can. That's fine. The point wasn't solutions. It was hey, people, wake the f*** up. Am I the only one since preseason who was 100% confident that Franzen was not a 1st line winger and that our 2nd line was s*** without Z or D to lead it. The point was i'm sick of hearing its only been 1 game, or 3 games, or 50 games. I have zero confidence the guys we have can put up enough points. We're a one team line offensively and it shows right now.

Solution: Its the same as its been since preseason. We need to make a trade for a scorer. Who, I don't know, I'm not a GM, have no access to GM's to ask about availability so I don't know what's possible or not. I just know the current guys aren't going to get it done. Ok, so I don't know, i'm just basing that opinion on what i'm seeing out there.

As for me just bitching about it in general. So what, its frustrating to think how long we're going to go with this lineup. WTF does it matter what I suggest we do. Is Ken Holland going to listen to whatever the f*** I have to say about this? Back to my original point: If its so crystal clear to everyone that our 2nd line is s***, then why is it everytime somebody points that out we get the "its only been X number of games" argument? Like 3 weeks from now Flip is going to turn into Paul Stastny or something.

Edited October 16, 2007 by GordieSid&Ted

[lfd250 1]

Just so everyone knows the wings, dare I say it, are going to lose again. And it will probably be

1. A goalies fault

2. A forwards fault

3. Lilja's fault

4. The ref's fault

5. Not enough fans in the stands

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Mac, I tell you what.

I'll stop being a part of the ***** and moan about the 2nd line crowd and start offering up my solutions to make you happy. For whatever good that's worth. Is this simply a principle thing or something? Like I can't ***** for the sake of bitching?

i'll stop doing that if I don't have to see another post of "its only been x games, chill out"

Just so everyone knows the wings, dare I say it, are going to lose again. And it will probably be

1. A goalies fault

2. A forwards fault

3. Lilja's fault

4. The ref's fault

5. Not enough fans in the stands

I think its going to be Holland's fault. I'm the guy's biggest supporter. I got banned from Redwingscentral years ago for defending the guy to my dying breath. But not this year. Not right now and not with this lineup. I'm happy that we're moving some more grit into the lineup. But we're still too small and not nasty enough and for the 1st time in awhile, we don't have multi-line scoring depth. Kenny needs to do something. Why wait 20 more games? Just do something.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Mac, i'm not failing to address anything intentionally. I've been at work all day. I haven't rewatched the clip since last night. I'll have to look at it again to see what you're saying. Going from memory, it sure looked like Lids could've eliminated the passing lane had he chosen to do just that. Whether there should have been help coming on the backcheck or not I personally wouldn't have assumed it was there. That's just me. Maybe he didn't see Pahlsson at all but with Niedermayer looking Pahlsson's way and opening up his shoulders towards Lids, that would lead me to believe as a defender that he's looking pass first, so eliminate the pass. As I said, i'll have to view it again but I think you're over analyzing the play for whatever reason. It seemed pretty straightforward to me. Player A with puck is slowing down, not charging hard to the net for his own opportunity, with his body position suggesting a crossing pass, me, i'm gonna layout on that one. If he can lob it a good foot over me my goalie might just have enough time to read that and make the save. If the guy can do that good for him. It's a heck of alot harder to hit a streaking guy with a lob pass over a body than it is to saucer one 3 inches off the ice over a stick. If he wants to stop on a dime and let me sail by, then so be it. Either way i'm delaying what he wants to do just enough to maybe disrupt that play. Whatever, doesn't matter. I have my opinion, you have yours. The pass got through and the puck went into the net. We lost. Time to move on to the next game to watch our 2nd line rack up the points. YEE HAW! My point of starting the entire thread was about our lack of depth scoring. The lids play was just a side note b/c as a dman it stuck in my mind. If you think i'm nuts then so be it. It's not a big deal.

You think I'm overanalyzing it, yet your response could fill novels.

You want to call a spade a spade, were both analyzing it because we're both just that interested in hockey. Nothing wrong with that, and honestly I always appreciate a well-written argument from anyone I don't happen to see eye-to-eye with.

If we want to talk solutions we can. That's fine. The point wasn't solutions. It was hey, people, wake the f*** up. Am I the only one since preseason who was 100% confident that Franzen was not a 1st line winger and that our 2nd line was s*** without Z or D to lead it. The point was i'm sick of hearing its only been 1 game, or 3 games, or 50 games. I have zero confidence the guys we have can put up enough points. We're a one team line offensively and it shows right now.

Solution: Its the same as its been since preseason. We need to make a trade for a scorer. Who, I don't know, I'm not a GM, have no access to GM's to ask about availability so I don't know what's possible or not. I just know the current guys aren't going to get it done. Ok, so I don't know, i'm just basing that opinion on what i'm seeing out there.

My only point was that we've heard the "wake the f*** up people" comments before, only to see the Wings light up the scoreboard in the not so distant future. If you don't have faith in this Wings offense, I'm won't fault you. It just seems eerily familiar.

Sidenote: I agree that Holland should make a move.