How many games is enough to call a spade a spade?

[bringback91 2]

As I and others have tried to point out to counteract the irrational Downey obsession that's going on, Downey is a known quantity.

Sounds like that crazy new staph infection that's been spreading around.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

In his illustrious NHL career, only one season did Downey average over 5 minutes a game. Every other year his average ice time was under that.

Why do you think that is?

Exactly how is increasing Downey's minutes going to help win games?

As I and others have tried to point out to counteract the irrational Downey obsession that's going on, Downey is a known quantity. He has no offensive or defensive skills, but will hit and drop the gloves and isn't particularly great at either of those.

Kopecky has only played 34 NHL games, and missed the end of last season when he broke his collar bone. But he still may develop in to a solid role player at this level. He needs to get the ice time and opportunities for that to happen.

You would rather the Wings put out a dead end player on the ice just because he may pick a fight, versus them potentially developing a 3rd line player who is 25 years old?

I think that the irrational Downey obsession that you allude to stems from the fact that we haven't seen an enforcer in a Wings uniform for a long time. If I'm thinking irrationally, then I guess you can say that I'm hungry for blood. But there's also an irrational Kopecky obsession that's developing, because some people seem to think that this rented mule is actually capable of being anything besides Babcock's fantasy "team toughness" player.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I think that the irrational Downey obsession that you allude to stems from the fact that we haven't seen an enforcer in a Wings uniform for a long time. If I'm thinking irrationally, then I guess you can say that I'm hungry for blood. But there's also an irrational Kopecky obsession that's developing, because some people seem to think that this rented mule is actually capable of being anything besides Babcock's fantasy "team toughness" player.

I am definitely one of those desperate for the Wings to get tougher and (yes, I'll say it) grittier. My signature has said as much for a while now.

Downey just isn't the answer. And I don't think Kopecky is in that department either, but he at least has a chance at being a decent role player. Chipping in a few goals and being defensively responsible. If anything I've seen more from Ellis in terms of digging at pucks and going to the net and getting his nose dirty.

So overall, I'm with ya. But Downey is a lost cause.

[Opie 308]

I think that the irrational Downey obsession that you allude to stems from the fact that we haven't seen an enforcer in a Wings uniform for a long time. If I'm thinking irrationally, then I guess you can say that I'm hungry for blood. But there's also an irrational Kopecky obsession that's developing, because some people seem to think that this rented mule is actually capable of being anything besides Babcock's fantasy "team toughness" player.

Who is obsessed with Kopecky, how many threads are there on Kopecky, how many threads evolve into Kopecky debates. Who besides people who want him benched for Downey even bring up Kopecky?

Now ask yourself all of those questions but replace Kopecky with Downey and then tell me which player is being obsessed over.

Kopecky has potential, what that potential is no one will know until he plays. He could turn out to be a 13th forward like Downey, but there is only one way to find out.

Take your Downey blinders off and look at his past, his history with other teams. HE SIMPLY DOES NOT PLAY THAT MUCH!!!!!

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Who is obsessed with Kopecky, how many threads are there on Kopecky, how many threads evolve into Kopecky debates. Who besides people who want him benched for Downey even bring up Kopecky?

Now ask yourself all of those questions but replace Kopecky with Downey and then tell me which player is being obsessed over.

Kopecky has potential, what that potential is no one will know until he plays. He could turn out to be a 13th forward like Downey, but there is only one way to find out.

Take your Downey blinders off and look at his past, his history with other teams. HE SIMPLY DOES NOT PLAY THAT MUCH!!!!!

Downey is more talked about, but only because he's the only such player on the roster. However, we've seen other guys like Kopecky. Useless players who may have size but don't know how to use it. Remember Langfeld last year, or how about Lilja who also doesn't know how to use his size. Maybe if the Wings had an enforcer for the last few years just like every other team in hockey did, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. And as I've said earlier, Downey's history with other teams has to do with him being replaced by better enforcers, just like the Blues did last year when they brought in D.J. King. I think it's fair to say that we're not going to bring any other enforcers in, especially since it took so long just to get Downey to make this team.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

In his illustrious NHL career, only one season did Downey average over 5 minutes a game. Every other year his average ice time was under that.

Why do you think that is?

Exactly how is increasing Downey's minutes going to help win games?

As I and others have tried to point out to counteract the irrational Downey obsession that's going on, Downey is a known quantity. He has no offensive or defensive skills, but will hit and drop the gloves and isn't particularly great at either of those.

Kopecky has only played 34 NHL games, and missed the end of last season when he broke his collar bone. But he still may develop in to a solid role player at this level. He needs to get the ice time and opportunities for that to happen.

You would rather the Wings put out a dead end player on the ice just because he may pick a fight, versus them potentially developing a 3rd line player who is 25 years old?

Harold, if Kopecky did anything to warrant more ice time they'd give it to him. IMO, Downey hasn't been a liability at all when out there. Over his illustrious 185 game career, do you know how bad he is defensively? A whopping -4. Not too shabby for a guy of his ilk. Did you watch the Ducks game last night? Do George Parros and Brad May really bring any more to the table than Downey? I don't think so yet there they were, playing on the same line together for the defending Cup champs.

Downey is an Even player thus far, of course he's only averaging 3 minutes per game. There is no indication that bumping up his minutes will have any negative impact on the scoreboard considering his career +/-. Therefore, since he is as good as Kopecky is in finishing his checks (actually, Kopa spends more time getting knocked over than he does making people feel the hits he delivers) and brings the added dimension of being able to defend his teammates should the need arise, in my mind he brings more to the table right now than Kopa. Kopa has more upside of course. That's not the argument. But from a game to game standpoint right now, Downey is doing everything that Kopa is doing and brings toughness that Kopa doesn't have.

Does it bring you wins? I can't claim it does and nobody can claim it doesn't definitively. Of course the Ducks lead the league by a landslide 70 total fighting majors and it didn't hinder them.

If I could bump up Downey's ice time at the expense of Kopa's, i'd do it without hesitating.

I just wanted to add that Ellis has been far more noticeable than Kopa in my opinion.

Edited October 18, 2007 by GordieSid&Ted

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Harold, if Kopecky did anything to warrant more ice time they'd give it to him. IMO, Downey hasn't been a liability at all when out there. Over his illustrious 185 game career, do you know how bad he is defensively? A whopping -4. Not too shabby for a guy of his ilk. Did you watch the Ducks game last night? Do George Parros and Brad May really bring any more to the table than Downey? I don't think so yet there they were, playing on the same line together for the defending Cup champs.

Downey is an Even player thus far, of course he's only averaging 3 minutes per game. There is no indication that bumping up his minutes will have any negative impact on the scoreboard considering his career +/-. Therefore, since he is as good as Kopecky is in finishing his checks (actually, Kopa spends more time getting knocked over than he does making people feel the hits he delivers) and brings the added dimension of being able to defend his teammates should the need arise, in my mind he brings more to the table right now than Kopa. Kopa has more upside of course. That's not the argument. But from a game to game standpoint right now, Downey is doing everything that Kopa is doing and brings toughness that Kopa doesn't have.

Does it bring you wins? I can't claim it does and nobody can claim it doesn't definitively. Of course the Ducks lead the league by a landslide 70 total fighting majors and it didn't hinder them.

If I could bump up Downey's ice time at the expense of Kopa's, i'd do it without hesitating.

I just wanted to add that Ellis has been far more noticeable than Kopa in my opinion.

Brad May is 2 years older than Downey, but has played in the NHL for well over ten years, has 123 goals and 276 points AND is a better fighter than Downey in my opinion. So yes, he does bring more to the table than Downey. And Parros doesn't bring much to more to the table, which is probably why he's currently getting about 40 seconds more icetime than Downey. (May plays 6 minutes)

I'm not opposed to giving more ice time to that type of player. I'm opposed to giving it to Downey.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Brad May is 2 years older than Downey, but has played in the NHL for well over ten years, has 123 goals and 276 points AND is a better fighter than Downey in my opinion. So yes, he does bring more to the table than Downey. And Parros doesn't bring much to more to the table, which is probably why he's currently getting about 40 seconds more icetime than Downey. (May plays 6 minutes)

I'm not opposed to giving more ice time to that type of player. I'm opposed to giving it to Downey.

Well, Gretzky also scored 200pts many a time back in the day. May put up most of his numbers years ago and hasn't been adding anything to any of his team's rosters other than toughness for 1/2 a decade now. Look at May's numbers, he's been a minus player, averaging a handful of points a season since 2002. What, his 3 goals and 7 points over the last 78 games is really adding anything to the Ducks roster? He's there for what he does physically and scoring points isn't one of them. To make this comparison about points is ridiculous because neither of them contributes in any meaningful way on that front. The Ducks employ May because he finishes his checks hard, gives his team a rough edge and won't hesitate to fight. There's no reason why 29 NHL teams think its not a bad idea to give guys like this some ice time. Why should we think any differently? So Downey isn't particularly great at anything. He doesn't put his team in jeopardy when he's out there. He gets his few shifts, puts the puck deep and goes hard at opposing players. What's wrong with giving him 3-5 more shifts a game?

I know your issue is more with Downey than with that type of player but given the lack of options why not give him a little more time? Instead of me asking why he shouldn't be given more time. Maybe you can answer for me: What has he done to warrant getting no ice time. Has he been a detriment on the ice? Is it an absolute zero possibility that he could contribute anything given 5 minutes a night?

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Well, Gretzky also scored 200pts many a time back in the day. May put up most of his numbers years ago and hasn't been adding anything to any of his team's rosters other than toughness for 1/2 a decade now. Look at May's numbers, he's been a minus player, averaging a handful of points a season since 2002. What, his 3 goals and 7 points over the last 78 games is really adding anything to the Ducks roster? He's there for what he does physically and scoring points isn't one of them. To make this comparison about points is ridiculous because neither of them contributes in any meaningful way on that front. The Ducks employ May because he finishes his checks hard, gives his team a rough edge and won't hesitate to fight. There's no reason why 29 NHL teams think its not a bad idea to give guys like this some ice time. Why should we think any differently? So Downey isn't particularly great at anything. He doesn't put his team in jeopardy when he's out there. He gets his few shifts, puts the puck deep and goes hard at opposing players. What's wrong with giving him 3-5 more shifts a game?

I know your issue is more with Downey than with that type of player but given the lack of options why not give him a little more time? Instead of me asking why he shouldn't be given more time. Maybe you can answer for me: What has he done to warrant getting no ice time. Has he been a detriment on the ice? Is it an absolute zero possibility that he could contribute anything given 5 minutes a night?

It's that there is a limited amount of ice time to give. And as I've said, Downey has no real upside. It's not like I'm a huge fan of Kopecky or Ellis, but I'd rather see those guys get the time so they can either develop into 3rd line role players, or the Wings can see for certain that it's just not going to happen for those two and be done with it.

And my main point about MAy is that the he's no dynamo, but the guy has the skills and qualities to make a career in the NHL. He's better than Downey in every department.

And I'm not sure I even agree that Downey doesn't hurt us out there. I haven't seen a glaring error by him so far, but if you add a couple minutes to ice time, I bet we would.

Edited October 18, 2007 by haroldsnepsts

[Kp-Wings 3]

How was he doing well last season? He scored 1 point in about 25 games.

Actually, that's 1 point in 26 games.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

It's that there is a limited amount of ice time to give. And as I've said, Downey has no real upside. It's not like I'm a huge fan of Kopecky or Ellis, but I'd rather see those guys get the time so they can either develop into 3rd line role players, or the Wings can see for certain that it's just not going to happen for those two and be done with it.

And my main point about MAy is that the he's no dynamo, but the guy has the skills and qualities to make a career in the NHL. He's better than Downey in every department.

And I'm not sure I even agree that Downey doesn't hurt us out there. I haven't seen a glaring error by him so far, but if you add a couple minutes to ice time, I bet we would.

Well, that's sort of the rub isn't it. Downey hasn't made any glaring errors and has worked hard yet you don't want to give him a shot at any more ice time. Meanwhile we should be giving more ice time to Kopa who hasn't shown much of anything other than he knows how to get back up on his skates after falling down. Kopa has time to make his impact. He's young, big and should be more noticeable shift in and shift out. IMO, this shouldn't be about letting Kopa or Ellis sink or swim so much as it's icing the best, most complete lineup possible.

As for May, I've been watching him since he, Ray and Barnaby were racking up 700 combined pims a year in Buffalo. He benefited from decent ice time in a more wide open NHL during his prime years. All you have to do is look at his numbers from 2002-3 on. He stinks. He can't produce anymore than you or I could at the NHL level. Whatever minimal skills he had he lost about 4 years ago. He's a light heavyweight enforcer who has had a penchant for being a prick at times. Is he more skilled than Downey? I doubt it. If we could have them do a bunch of skills drills I'd bet they'd wash out.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Well, that's sort of the rub isn't it. Downey hasn't made any glaring errors and has worked hard yet you don't want to give him a shot at any more ice time. Meanwhile we should be giving more ice time to Kopa who hasn't shown much of anything other than he knows how to get back up on his skates after falling down. Kopa has time to make his impact. He's young, big and should be more noticeable shift in and shift out. IMO, this shouldn't be about letting Kopa or Ellis sink or swim so much as it's icing the best, most complete lineup possible.

As for May, I've been watching him since he, Ray and Barnaby were racking up 700 combined pims a year in Buffalo. He benefited from decent ice time in a more wide open NHL during his prime years. All you have to do is look at his numbers from 2002-3 on. He stinks. He can't produce anymore than you or I could at the NHL level. Whatever minimal skills he had he lost about 4 years ago. He's a light heavyweight enforcer who has had a penchant for being a prick at times. Is he more skilled than Downey? I doubt it. If we could have them do a bunch of skills drills I'd bet they'd wash out.

I guess once again we'll have to agree to disagree.

My perspective is that the season is long. If giving the ice time to Kopecky and Ellis gives them a chance to develop come playoff time, even if they show some growing pains throughout the season, then go for it. They have potential. Downey has none.

Hell, Babcock gave ice time to Kopecky in the playoffs, so he must see something in the guy. I doubt he'd throw Downey out there in similar situations. At least I hope he wouldn't.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Hell, Babcock gave ice time to Kopecky in the playoffs, so he must see something in the guy.

But Kopecky was the only guy he could give ice time to in the playoffs. Hudler couldnt play in the playoff grind agaisnt Anaheim, Calder was injured and Bootland, Langfeld and Ellis were in GR for there playoffs.

I will admit that, Kopecky in the games he played in last season, he was a good player. But since his injury, he's flat out sucked. If he can ever re-find that game of his from last year, I'd give him a shot, until then, I'd rather play Downey or Ellis.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

But Kopecky was the only guy he could give ice time to in the playoffs. Hudler couldnt play in the playoff grind agaisnt Anaheim, Calder was injured and Bootland, Langfeld and Ellis were in GR for there playoffs.

I will admit that, Kopecky in the games he played in last season, he was a good player. But since his injury, he's flat out sucked. If he can ever re-find that game of his from last year, I'd give him a shot, until then, I'd rather play Downey or Ellis.

how's he going to refind that game on the bench?

we're 7 games into the season. it's not like he's sucked for 40 games.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

how's he going to refind that game on the bench?

we're 7 games into the season. it's not like he's sucked for 40 games.

Hmm, didnt think about that

I guess I just wish he was playing like last season, hopefully he re-finds his game sooner rather then later.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

how's he going to refind that game on the bench?

we're 7 games into the season. it's not like he's sucked for 40 games.

Did Downey make an impact last night in minimal ice time? You bet your ass he did.

Did Kopa make an impact at all in the win? I guess his 3 hits were worth something. Would've been worth more had he stayed on his feet though. Seriously, what is Kopa's problem, other than being too skinny for his height? He's like one of those inflatable punching bag toys that falls over in a gust of wind.

[eva unit zero 271]

Did Downey make an impact last night in minimal ice time? You bet your ass he did.

Did Kopa make an impact at all in the win? I guess his 3 hits were worth something. Would've been worth more had he stayed on his feet though. Seriously, what is Kopa's problem, other than being too skinny for his height? He's like one of those inflatable punching bag toys that falls over in a gust of wind.

I find the Kopecky bashing hilarious. Why? Because Kopecky has one point to Filppula's none, and Filppula is not getting bashed one bit. But Kopecky has been horrible and shouldn't be in the lineup, while Filppula should be our second line center.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I find the Kopecky bashing hilarious. Why? Because Kopecky has one point to Filppula's none, and Filppula is not getting bashed one bit. But Kopecky has been horrible and shouldn't be in the lineup, while Filppula should be our second line center.

It is hilarious isn't it. Of course I got railed for bashing Flip and Hulder saying they were not 2nd line players. And thus far i've been proven correct.

However, the issue here is what can these guys bring to the table each night. Flip can win faceoffs and play decent defensively. Hudler has shown he can score. What i'm trying to do is find more icetime for Downey. He's not going to take a 2nd line players time so what does that leave us with? Taking time from guys who are perhaps doing nothing with much greater icetime. Kopecky seems to be the most obvious choice. He's getting over 10 minutes per night and his one assist came off a flukey bounce that I believe Zetterberg put in the net. Seems that the only way any of our other guys gets a point is if Z is out there with them to do it for them. Anyway, Kopa's getting all kinds of ice time and doing zilch with it. Why does Kopa need to play 13 minutes to Downey's 2-3? Why not reduce Kopa's minutes to 10 and get Downey up to 5. Wouldn't hurt to have Downey throw a couple more solid hits on the opposition D.

[eva unit zero 271]

It is hilarious isn't it. Of course I got railed for bashing Flip and Hulder saying they were not 2nd line players. And thus far i've been proven correct.

However, the issue here is what can these guys bring to the table each night. Flip can win faceoffs and play decent defensively. Hudler has shown he can score. What i'm trying to do is find more icetime for Downey. He's not going to take a 2nd line players time so what does that leave us with? Taking time from guys who are perhaps doing nothing with much greater icetime. Kopecky seems to be the most obvious choice. He's getting over 10 minutes per night and his one assist came off a flukey bounce that I believe Zetterberg put in the net. Seems that the only way any of our other guys gets a point is if Z is out there with them to do it for them. Anyway, Kopa's getting all kinds of ice time and doing zilch with it. Why does Kopa need to play 13 minutes to Downey's 2-3? Why not reduce Kopa's minutes to 10 and get Downey up to 5. Wouldn't hurt to have Downey throw a couple more solid hits on the opposition D.

Filppula has averaged 16 minutes. Hudler has averaged 13. Kopecky has averaged less than 8. Ellis has averaged under 5. Downey has averaged 3.

But let's look at even strength ice time, since that's where Downey's minutes would be.

Filppula gets 13 at ES, Hudler 11, and Kopecky 7, Ellis 4, and Downey 3. Downey is not a better player than Kopecky or Ellis, and their minutes are already close. Filppula has been fairly ineffective so far yet is third among healthy forwards in ES ice time; he gets more than even Homer does. Yes, Kopecky has played more recently, but that is a result of two of our top line wingers being injured. And BTW....ten players, including Flip and Kopay, have taken more than one faceoff for the Wings this season. Flip is the only one who hasn't won at least 50%.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Filppula has averaged 16 minutes. Hudler has averaged 13. Kopecky has averaged less than 8. Ellis has averaged under 5. Downey has averaged 3.

But let's look at even strength ice time, since that's where Downey's minutes would be.

Filppula gets 13 at ES, Hudler 11, and Kopecky 7, Ellis 4, and Downey 3. Downey is not a better player than Kopecky or Ellis, and their minutes are already close. Filppula has been fairly ineffective so far yet is third among healthy forwards in ES ice time; he gets more than even Homer does. Yes, Kopecky has played more recently, but that is a result of two of our top line wingers being injured. And BTW....ten players, including Flip and Kopay, have taken more than one faceoff for the Wings this season. Flip is the only one who hasn't won at least 50%.

You're right that all we're talking about is ES minutes and by your numbers, its pretty slim pickings. I guess when we factor in Sammy and Franzen it shakes everything up and makes this a moot issue to boot. I guess our only real answer is to find that top 6 scoring forward, bump Huddles or Flip down a line, then bump Kopa or someone else down a line and finally bump Downey or Drake or Ellis out of the lineup altogether.

As it stands now, if the team were healthy and only one guy could actually suit up over Kopa or Downey, sorry, i'm taking Downey. Kopa adds nothing to the lineup that we don't already have. There's absolutely nothing he does for us as an individual that isn't replaceable other than his height. Downey on the other hand brings something that no other player on our team has. That's enough for me considering neither gets that much ES time. I hate to rain on those who live and die with the youth of our team but Kopecky has shown absolutely nothing.

[vangvace 12]

Off topic

Sounds like that crazy new staph infection that's been spreading around.

Speaking from experience that infection sucks.

continue topic