Pavel Datsyuk for the Selke

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Since when did you have to be a defensive forward to win the Selke? Sergei Fedorov, Steve Yzerman, Ron Francis....need I go on?

technically that's what the award is for, though they often give it to two-way forwards (too often, IMO) And Fedorov was head and shoulders a better defensive player than Dats. (oooo, I mentioned Fedorov again).

Not checked the stat lately, but he was there last time I looked. From memory he was 7th last year.

EDIT: Just checked NHL.com, Datsyuk is 20th @ 54.5%, but there's no filter on min number of face-offs that I can see, and there's a few guys ahead of him on the list who I imagine don't have that many - Jamal Meyers? David Steckel?

As for the number of face-offs he takes - the wings are *real* good on face-offs, possibly the best in the league, with Zetterberg (4th) and Draper (2nd) as well. Pavel has tended to play LW when he's out there with Z, so naturally his share of the face-offs will be slightly less.

so now that the stat no longer works in his favor, it's because Detroit is so deep on faceoffs?

Isn't that essentially the same thing? He is there to outplay the other sides top line - which his plus/minus, and the wings record, shows that he does more often than not.

No. He's out there to score goals and make plays, and then also to backcheck and help keep the puck out of his own net. That's different than being the guy assigned to shut down Sidney Crosby.

I agree.

Well it's good we agree on something.

And no one has really answered this point. If he's the best defensive forward in the league, why isn't he out there more on the PK? He's not even top 5 on his own team in PK minutes per game.

Look, it's beating a dead horse and I know it's unpopular to think Dats doesn't deserve this award. I just don't think he's the number one defensive forward in the league.

[awingsincebirth 0]

Is there a point in my throwing out any names? It seems clear your mind is made up that Datsyuk is the best defensive forward in the league.

Again, it's just not his role. A true defensive forward would have a lot more time on the PK than Dats is. That is not a knock on Dats, it's just not what he's asked to do. He is one of the best forwards in the league for sure, just not the best defensive one in my book.

And my opinion is based mostly watching him play, not the stats.

I've been reading through this thread and agreeing with you the whole time Harold. This is what you may have intended to say, but I think, in all honesty, its very hard to tell whether or not he is one of the best defensive players in my book.

Yes, he is one of the greatest pick-pockets in recent history, and yes, he has a ridculous +/- (but, hell, not to take away from him, I could be a + player if my typical d-man pairing were Nick and Rafi). But, Dats is too awesome of an offensive player to evaluate him from a purely defensive standpoint. Like you said, he doesn't play in a pure shut down role. But hypothtically, if he was placed in a pure shut down role, and told to downplay the offense, I think he very well could become the best defensive forward in the league. However, it's just hard to say because he does so much of everything else. This also applies to the PK minutes, which I'm sure you realize. He could very well be a go to PK guy, but Babs knows we have enough solid defensive players to play that role, and Dats would be best saved for an offensive, even strength or PP role.

In short, because of Dats' offensive prowess, it will make it harder for him to win the Selke. Certainly not impossible, but harder.

[Guest jaytan]

What about Datsyuk getting the Selke AND the Lady Byng? That would be cool )

The Selke is cool, but the Lady Byng's almost something I'd feel would be an embarrassment to win.

[eva unit zero 271]

Since when did you have to be a defensive forward to win the Selke? Sergei Fedorov, Steve Yzerman, Ron Francis....need I go on?

Those three were all elite defenders who were used in a shut down role on their team as well as in an offensive role those years.

Rod Brind'Amour is the only recent winner who was not used by his team to shut down opposing first lines. And TBH...Brind'Amour really should not have won the Selke at all. he's good defensively, but he's not Selke good.

[Kira 451]

The Selke is cool, but the Lady Byng's almost something I'd feel would be an embarrassment to win.

You would be embarrassed to be in company with Ron Francis, Marcel Dionne, Alex Delvecchio, Stan Mikita and guys like that???? I'd say that's nice company to be keeping.

[Doggy 130]

And no one has really answered this point. If he's the best defensive forward in the league, why isn't he out there more on the PK?

It's because he isn't the best defensive forward in the game. He's not even close. A bunch of Pavel-lovers have just seen improvement in that side of his game and all of a sudden think he's Lidstrom now with Bure's goal scoring.

Basically Harold, you've been right on the money this whole thread but there are too many people here that don't watch enough of other players from other teams to have a realistic opinion of guys like Pavel.

At the end of the day, Pavel might get this award, he might not. It's way too hard to judge for me (or anyone) to have a strong opinion. Having a romantic view of a player like Datsyuk is cool - he's a great player. However, to say it's a lock is pretty short-sighted. Don't be too upset if he doesn't win it.

[Hank 0]

The Selke is cool, but the Lady Byng's almost something I'd feel would be an embarrassment to win.

Hahaha. I can agree with this.

I was actually in the running for the Lady Byng in my beer league. I made sure to get a roughing penalty down the stretch to make sure it didn't happen.

But back on subject. Stats shouldn't be the only thing used to determine who's the best defensive forward. Look at Wayne Gretzky. He had +/- ratings well over 90 in some years and yet I'd hardly call him the best defensive foward of his time. It's why MacTavish and Messier took more draws on the PK than Wayne.

Dats is a very good defensive forward, but if you were asked 'What player would you like out there to seal a win' Pavel might not even be in the top 10.

Edited March 11, 2008 by Hank

[lets go pavel 2]

And no one has really answered this point. If he's the best defensive forward in the league, why isn't he out there more on the PK? He's not even top 5 on his own team in PK minutes per game.

i can give you a theory ... the PK runs in shifts, and each shift usually stays on the ice for as long as it takes to clear the puck, then they change ... if Dats' PK team is more effective/expeditious at getting teh puck and clearing then his time on the ice for the PK would be less than the others ... a better stat would be to compare the number of shifts on the PK ...

that said, while i do think he's matured into a great two-way forward (and he is my favorite player), i'm not sure i would call him the best defensive forward in the game either ...

(edit - typo)

Edited March 11, 2008 by lets go pavel

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Hahaha! Sorry to pick on you Kira, but that's exactly how you react, at times, when someone says anything negative about Datsyuk.

I think we're all guilty of being homers towards the team or individual players at times.

However, I can see why people would compare Dats and Feds. They do play similar in some respects.

I don't think i've ever been guilty of that. Usually i'm the one telling other people to stop being homers.

[eva unit zero 271]

The thing is, the Wings have five guys who could be put into a discussion about the league's best defensive forward:

Zetterberg

Datsyuk

Draper

Cleary

Franzen

That alone will probably work against them. Combine that with the fact that Dats is probably not even the best defensive forward on the team, and he's definitely not a lock for the Selke.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

The thing is, the Wings have five guys who could be put into a discussion about the league's best defensive forward:

Zetterberg

Datsyuk

Draper

Cleary

Franzen

That alone will probably work against them. Combine that with the fact that Dats is probably not even the best defensive forward on the team, and he's definitely not a lock for the Selke.

Does this even make any sense. How can it be a fact if its only probably true?

And yes, Datsyuk is the best defensive forward on the team for basically the same reasons Lidstrom is the best defensmen on the team (and world for that matter)

Specifically, the effortless nature to which they employ their defensive brilliance and their fantastic control of their sticks.

Dats doesn't get love because some people are just convinced that Zetterberg is better (that would be you eva, he who claimed Z was the greatest and was going to put up 130 pts this year or was it not you projected that in the first 2 months of the season?) Anyway, my point is you act like Z gives you money for or some s*** for all the glorifying of him that you do.

If takeaways aren't an indicator of your ability to defend then I don't know what is and nobody touches Dats.

Also, Dats ability to keep the puck away from others is not necessarily just an offensive skill set. His ability to keep the puck out of the hands of the opposition can be looked at defensively as well.

Zetterberg just looks like he's working harder and frankly, he is working harder because he's not as good as Datsyuk.

And yes, Dats is still leading Z in points like I said he would long ago. More gifted offensively and defensively as well.

[BeeRYCE 2]

I think alot of Datsyuk's takeaways come from taking the puck away from defensemen in the neutral zone to deep in the other team's end. Not to say he doesn't take pucks in his own end too, but most of them come on the forecheck, and I think that's the difference. Guys like Pandolfo, Madden, Pahlsson, Fisher, Peca, Draper, Lehtinen, Brind'Amour, whoever... Are better in the DEFENSIVE zone than Datsyuk is.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I think alot of Datsyuk's takeaways come from taking the puck away from defensemen in the neutral zone to deep in the other team's end. Not to say he doesn't take pucks in his own end too, but most of them come on the forecheck, and I think that's the difference. Guys like Pandolfo, Madden, Pahlsson, Fisher, Peca, Draper, Lehtinen, Brind'Amour, whoever... Are better in the DEFENSIVE zone than Datsyuk is.

I can buy that. The real question would be could Datsyuk be better than them if that's what he and the team wanted him to be doing versus being an offensive powerhouse?

I think if Datsyuk never tried to generate any offense and just went about being a defensive forward he could outshine most of those guys on the list. Of course some of those guys have an edge that datsyuk doesn't have which is their size and strength. Rod Brindamour is freakishly strong and Mike Fisher is a big, strong guy in his own right. Makes it easy to body people around and pin them.

But again, like I say, Dats brilliance defensively is much like Lids as it seems so effortless.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Does this even make any sense. How can it be a fact if its only probably true?

And yes, Datsyuk is the best defensive forward on the team for basically the same reasons Lidstrom is the best defensmen on the team (and world for that matter)

Specifically, the effortless nature to which they employ their defensive brilliance and their fantastic control of their sticks.

Dats doesn't get love because some people are just convinced that Zetterberg is better (that would be you eva, he who claimed Z was the greatest and was going to put up 130 pts this year or was it not you projected that in the first 2 months of the season?) Anyway, my point is you act like Z gives you money for or some s*** for all the glorifying of him that you do.

If takeaways aren't an indicator of your ability to defend then I don't know what is and nobody touches Dats.

Also, Dats ability to keep the puck away from others is not necessarily just an offensive skill set. His ability to keep the puck out of the hands of the opposition can be looked at defensively as well.

Zetterberg just looks like he's working harder and frankly, he is working harder because he's not as good as Datsyuk.

And yes, Dats is still leading Z in points like I said he would long ago. More gifted offensively and defensively as well.

Then why wouldn't Babcock put the best defensive forward on the team out on the PK more? Why would Babcock put Z out more on the PK if Dats is better defensively?

As I said earlier, he's behind 6 other players in PK time per game. And a lot of the minutes he has been getting are due in part to guys like Maltby and Cleary being out of the lineup.

And takeaways are a highly unreliable stat. I don't know if I can still find the link, but there was a blog that showed it basically came down to what building you played in that had the greatest influence on that stat. Still, Dats being so far in the lead and more importantly, having watched him play, I bet he does lead in takeaways. The guy is a thief.

But that doesn't make him the best defensive forward in the league. To me that's a guy who spends a lot of time on the PK, who shadows the other teams star, keeps him from even touching the puck, yes takes the puck away when he does get it, pressures him to make the bad pass or take the bad shot, puts the body on him any chance he can, and generally frustrates the hell out of him.

Your argument that Z looks like he's working harder because he's not as talented is a pretty creative one. By that reasoning, Lang must've been the most talented guy on the ice, because it usually looked like he wasn't working very hard at all. Why did we trade him?!

Sorry Gordie, but I gotta disagree with this one. Dats is one of the best forwards in the league and has become a great two-way forward, but to me he's not the best defensive forward in the league. I'm gonna have to play the homer card on this one.

(and before you jump down my throat, I realize you didn't say he should win the selke. I was joking.)

Edited March 11, 2008 by haroldsnepsts

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I can buy that. The real question would be could Datsyuk be better than them if that's what he and the team wanted him to be doing versus being an offensive powerhouse?

I think if Datsyuk never tried to generate any offense and just went about being a defensive forward he could outshine most of those guys on the list. Of course some of those guys have an edge that datsyuk doesn't have which is their size and strength. Rod Brindamour is freakishly strong and Mike Fisher is a big, strong guy in his own right. Makes it easy to body people around and pin them.

But again, like I say, Dats brilliance defensively is much like Lids as it seems so effortless.

I definitely think he could be if that was his number one job. He does have a physical disadvantage, as you mentioned, but I think he could compensate for that with skill.

[2probert4 8]

It's like the thread about who the best offensive players are. Somehow Martin Havlat's name came up a few times as a top offensive player, despite the fact that he hasn't ever had 'elite' numbers, which are ultimately the measure of offensive performance.

You can say "I think this guy is as good as that guy" all you want, but for it to be true as far as offense, the stats will bear out the truth.

As far as defense...I included the fact that Fedorov won two Selkes in his first six seasons, while Datsyuk has yet to be top ten in Selke voting.

I wasn't arguing with you, just fun to see all the stats from you once again. I remember how it used to tick off Thornton 19 Canada when you would say Osgood was better than Cujo. That was hilarious !

[Deke 0]

I think alot of Datsyuk's takeaways come from taking the puck away from defensemen in the neutral zone to deep in the other team's end. Not to say he doesn't take pucks in his own end too, but most of them come on the forecheck, and I think that's the difference. Guys like Pandolfo, Madden, Pahlsson, Fisher, Peca, Draper, Lehtinen, Brind'Amour, whoever... Are better in the DEFENSIVE zone than Datsyuk is.

But if the team never get's to start their offensive possesion in Detroit's zone, then Dats has played defense. And that means he's played it better than anyone in the defensive zone because the opposing team's offense never got started. That crushes momentum and moral when you can't get it into the offensive zone. It gives your fowards more rest not having to skate up and down the full length of the ice. It's puck control and puck control is the number one rule of defense.

And I don't agree that those fowards you listed are better in the Defensive zone than Dats. If there is anyone I trust the most to stop a breakaway without taking a penalty it's Datsyuk. Part of playing Defensively in your own zone also includes getting the puck out, which means taking it smartly into the neautral zone making AND connecting smart passes.

The only thing Dats doesn't do really is block shots. And while that is a defensive area he lacks in, I don't want him to start. I prefer his smart style of hockey. Wait for the right moment, lift the stick, Now you see the puck, now you don't.

Bop means theif in Russian. That's what I call him.

[eva unit zero 271]

I wasn't arguing with you, just fun to see all the stats from you once again. I remember how it used to tick off Thornton 19 Canada when you would say Osgood was better than Cujo. That was hilarious !

Damn Leafs fans...

[Guest LivingtheDream]

Selke or not, playing defensively doesn't always have to occur in our own defensive zone. Maybe a broader definition of "when you don't have the puck" might fit what Dats is doing and his level of defensive play. The takeaway threat is everywhere with him - their zone, neutral zone, our zone... the guy just never turns it off. What I love about it is he has turned his fricking awesome wizardly stick handling skills into just as much of a threat, if not more, when he DOESN'T have the puck. It used to be you couldn't slack off for a millisecond if he had the puck or he would make you look like a fool (still true), but now you can't slack off for a millisecond if YOU have the puck because he will make you look like a fool. I'm serious, how cool is that? It's genius. Very Russian and chess like you might say - in adapting an offensive capability for defense as well.

[eva unit zero 271]

Selke or not, playing defensively doesn't always have to occur in our own defensive zone. Maybe a broader definition of "when you don't have the puck" might fit what Dats is doing and his level of defensive play. The takeaway threat is everywhere with him - their zone, neutral zone, our zone... the guy just never turns it off. What I love about it is he has turned his fricking awesome wizardly stick handling skills into just as much of a threat, if not more, when he DOESN'T have the puck. It used to be you couldn't slack off for a millisecond if he had the puck or he would make you look like a fool (still true), but now you can't slack off for a millisecond if YOU have the puck because he will make you look like a fool. I'm serious, how cool is that? It's genius. Very Russian and chess like you might say - in adapting an offensive capability for defense as well.

I understand you are trying to justify Dats for the Selke.

But the reality is, as good as he is defensively, he's not even the top defensive forward on his team...so his chances of winning the Selke are pretty slim.

[dicksmack 33]

I think it's interesting that no has advanced some particular candidates for the Selke that are having Selke type seasons... It's because none of them are having terribly good years or are injured. Perhaps Fisher, but he'll need to work on that +/- as history has shown. Pavel has the highest plus/minus of any forward in the league. The reason people think Pavel's a lock this year is because of the scarcity of competition THIS YEAR. As well, some don't hold his offensive brilliance against him as they know those skills, related to say putting amazing plays together, can be brought to bear to take them apart just as effectively: vision, positioning, hands, speed... Past Selke winners have proven this. Pavel has those tools... He's so much more than a puck thief, the way T rex was about more than just "Bang a Gong"

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I think it's interesting that no has advanced some particular candidates for the Selke that are having Selke type seasons... It's because none of them are having terribly good years or are injured. Perhaps Fisher, but he'll need to work on that +/- as history has shown. Pavel has the highest plus/minus of any forward in the league. The reason people think Pavel's a lock this year is because of the scarcity of competition THIS YEAR. As well, some don't hold his offensive brilliance against him as they know those skills, related to say putting amazing plays together, can be brought to bear to take them apart just as effectively: vision, positioning, hands, speed... Past Selke winners have proven this. Pavel has those tools... He's so much more than a puck thief, the way T rex was about more than just "Bang a Gong"

Why isn't someone like Madden having a selke-worthy season?

Edited March 12, 2008 by haroldsnepsts

[dicksmack 33]

Ding! finally... Madden's one other... his stats look ok... but he plays for a team that's boring to watch though, lol, unlike the Wings who are the exact other end of that spectrum even according to blind folks...

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Ding! finally... Madden's one other... his stats look ok... but he plays for a team that's boring to watch though, lol, unlike the Wings who are the exact other end of that spectrum even according to blind folks...

Color me blind then. But I'm guessing that was a shot at me when you said it anyway.

Madden is a much more qualified candidate for the Selke than Dats. Tons of time on the PK, blocks shots, hits, great on faceoffs and takes a lot for his team, takeaways, and in general plays a more defensive role than Pavel.

Edited March 13, 2008 by haroldsnepsts

[dicksmack 33]

Color me blind then. But I'm guessing that was a shot at me when you said it anyway.

Madden is a much more qualified candidate for the Selke than Dats. Tons of time on the PK, blocks shots, hits, great on faceoffs and takes a lot for his team, takeaways, and in general plays a more defensive role than Pavel.

Not exactly a strong field of Selke candidates, this year right? That's the point... The fact that Pavel can't be limited to a defensive role doesn't preclude him from being considered among the best at it. Only a fool would waste him in this way. Look at his plus/minus... second to lids at last check... Does this stat mean much? The answer is it depends. Why is Nik Lidstrom the plus minus leader every year?

He's way solid. Bobby Orr was a + 124 or something one year... Look at jason spezza though, that guy is known for being a defensive trainwreck; perhaps he's improved a bit or it's that he is playing on an offensive juggernaut of a line...

I think you are stressing the role aspect of the award too much... An offensive defenseman can win the Norris and a gifted forward that controls the play, establishes puck possession all over ice and busts his ass to get back and backcheck can win the Selke. You're saying it has to fit in a nice, neat box, I disagree...