Pavel Datsyuk for the Selke

[norrisnick 1]

Yet Fedorov has won The Selke, and Pavel has not.

Twice.

[Opie 308]

Datsyuk isn't even the best two-way player on his team. That said, he's still top five or ten in the league.

Eva sometimes I think you forget that your opinion is just that your opinion, because you like to state it like it is a fact.

I know you like to wow people with your stats and logic, but in this case I disagree with you and that is my opinion. I think Dats is the best two way player on this team.

I agree +/- CAN be a misconstrued stat, however look at what Dats is doing as a whole, he has great takeaway numbers, regardless of where they happen sort of like an ENG on the stat sheet it shows up as a G that is it, A great +/-. But you're telling me that his +/- in this specific situation is a product of him being an offensive player on a defensive team, yet he leads the team in takeaways?

Just because he doesn't put in work on the PK doesn't mean he can't. It could mean his coach wants his best player to be ready for the next shift after the PK. Who knows what babs is thinking.

But as caught up in the +/- minus stat some people get you get as caught up in disproving it as a valid stat.

Edited March 14, 2008 by Opie

[norrisnick 1]

Eva sometimes I think you forget that your opinion is just that your opinion, because you like to state it like it is a fact.

I know you like to wow people with your stats and logic, but in this case I disagree with you and that is my opinion. I think Dats is the best two way player on this team.

I agree +/- CAN be a misconstrued stat, however look at what Dats is doing as a whole, he has great takeaway numbers, regardless of where they happen sort of like an ENG on the stat sheet it shows up as a G that is it, A great +/-. But you're telling me that his +/- in this specific situation is a product of him being an offensive player on a defensive team, yet he leads the team in takeaways?

Just because he doesn't put in work on the PK doesn't mean he can't. It could mean his coach wants his best player to be ready for the next shift after the PK. Who knows what babs is thinking.

But as caught up in the +/- minus stat some people get you get as caught up in disproving it as a valid stat.

Too bad you're wrong.

Lidstrom.

[Opie 308]

Too bad you're wrong.

Lidstrom.

MY B I meant forwards, but you probably knew that!

[Guest LivingtheDream]

I will say again. Plus-minus, with relation to forwards, is driven by lines that have good offensive succes, and have more offensive success than their counterparts. This is a statistical fact. \

Where is your regression analysis of +/- leaders correlated to offensive production? Do the same for defensive effectiveness across the spectrum of +/- leaders. "Fact" is a big word professor and it has a very specific meaning.

[eva unit zero 271]

Where is your regression analysis of +/- leaders correlated to offensive production? Do the same for defensive effectiveness across the spectrum of +/- leaders. "Fact" is a big word professor and it has a very specific meaning.

It is a fact. That fact is borne out by the fact that plus-minus leaders are usually top line forwards whose primary role is scoring, and not defensive stalwarts who play on the third line in a shut down role because they are much better defensively. RARE is the player who can play shut-down type defense AND be a top line scorer.

Most of the league's top defensive forwards won't be seen near the plus minus leaderboard because they are one-dimensional players focused entirely on defense.

Example:

Rod Brind'Amour won the Selke last season with a +9, tied for 80th among forwards. He won it the previous season with a +8, which tied him for 67th. While I don't personally feel Rod should have won in either season, it proves the point that plus-minus doesn't equate to a Selke victory, which means that Selke voters don't see +/- as a stat that indicates defensive ability.

[dicksmack 33]

To go back to past winners, there are two player types that win the Selke. The far less numerous is the player with a high skill level on both the offensive and defensive end of things. The only two are Gilmour and (gasp) Fedorov. The usual Selke winner is a primarily regarded as a defensive specialist and typically scores around 20 or so goals, has like a plus 8. They would check the opposition's top line and be shut down defenders who can also score a few. Offensive types get around 30 goals, have a +/- of about 26, play on all special teams/in all situations and and certainly know how to separate guys from the puck. I would say Datsyuk fits this latter profile, but with a better +/-, and larcenous talent. And in a year with just a few of the usual type guys having big seasons, Pavel stands out. Datysuk can strip pucks in any situation, to score, to clear the puck down the ice on the pk or to prevent a goal without taking a penalty when he's back-checking hard the way he does. He can hit and he's very strong and solid for his size and you don't have to be big to win it.

[eva unit zero 271]

To go back to past winners, there are two player types that win the Selke. The far less numerous is the player with a high skill level on both the offensive and defensive end of things. The only two are Gilmour and (gasp) Fedorov. The usual Selke winner is a primarily regarded as a defensive specialist and typically scores around 20 or so goals, has like a plus 8. They would check the opposition's top line and be shut down defenders who can also score a few. Offensive types get around 30 goals, have a +/- of about 26, play on all special teams/in all situations and and certainly know how to separate guys from the puck. I would say Datsyuk fits this latter profile, but with a better +/-, and larcenous talent. And in a year with just a few of the usual type guys having big seasons, Pavel stands out. Datysuk can strip pucks in any situation, to score, to clear the puck down the ice on the pk or to prevent a goal without taking a penalty when he's back-checking hard the way he does. He can hit and he's very strong and solid for his size and you don't have to be big to win it.

Datsyuk will not win the Selke. Realistically, he shouldn't even be nominated. It is a trophy for BEST defensive forward. Not most improved defensive forward or most improved two-way forward, both of which Dats can make an argument for.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Mike Fisher of Ottawa is one of the favorites. Heard it yesterday on XM.

Haha. Thats funny. I heard Sens fans talking just the other day about how Mike Fisher is overrated defensively. Sens fans.

[dicksmack 33]

Datsyuk will not win the Selke. Realistically, he shouldn't even be nominated. It is a trophy for BEST defensive forward. Not most improved defensive forward or most improved two-way forward, both of which Dats can make an argument for.

So...how do you figure the two - dimensionally skilled, higher scoring guys won their Selkes?

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Datsyuk wont win the trophy even if hes worthy of it. Theres a voting bias as with all trophies. Just like youre supposedly not worthy of the Hart if your team doesnt make the playoffs, youre also supposedly not worthy of the Selke if youre not a rough and tumble player. Same reason why Zetterberg couldve easily been nominated over Jay Pandolfo.

Datsyuk would literally have to dominate the game defensivly a la Fedorov in order to win the Selke, whereas a guy like Mike Fisher or John Madden would just have to be "one of the better choices" to win it.

IMO, its John Maddens to lose..

[YoungGuns1340 1]

So...how do you figure the two - dimensionally skilled, higher scoring guys won their Selkes?

By being the clear cut choice. Datsyuk is not. You could have 5 guys who are equally worthy of the Selke, and Datsyuk could be one of them, but he wouldnt win it simply put. His flashiness and his number of points in this case count against him. I can guarantee it.

[Opie 308]

You know what NVM!!

Edited March 15, 2008 by Opie

[dicksmack 33]

Datsyuk is just a better player than Madden or Fisher. He uses his league leading stick checking and escapability at both ends of the ice. Nobody in the world can compare to him in these area. When he's constantly attacking you, you are on the defensive and are scrambling to cover him and not attacking. When he comes at guys on the forecheck, he is spooking them into making a mistake by coughing it up or hurrying the pass. It's call puck possession. Pavel on the forcheck is like a leopard seal chasing penguins around... The wings epitomize the puck possession style and Pavel exemplifies it... Are you guys gonna have an argument or just assertions? Pavel scores too much? The offensive type of Selke winner gets about 30 goals and has a high +/-. We're not talking about his cohort, just him.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Datsyuk is just a better player than Madden or Fisher. He uses his league leading stick checking and escapability at both ends of the ice. Nobody in the world can compare to him in these area. When he's constantly attacking you, you are on the defensive and are scrambling to cover him and not attacking. When he comes at guys on the forecheck, he is spooking them into making a mistake by coughing it up or hurrying the pass. It's call puck possession. Pavel on the forcheck is like a leopard seal chasing penguins around... The wings epitomize the puck possession style and Pavel exemplifies it... Are you guys gonna have an argument or just assertions? Pavel scores too much? The offensive type of Selke winner gets about 30 goals and has a high +/-. We're not talking about his cohort, just him.

Why are people getting all defensive over this? Its not like Datsyuk is your first born son. My assertion is that he wont win it based on my reasoning, which is based on bureaucracy. Theres a ton of it in the NHL. Doesnt mean he wouldnt be a good choice, just means he wont win it. And I would bank on that. Hell be lucky if hes nominated honestly. And again, that doesnt mean I wouldnt love to see him win it.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Datsyuk is just a better player than Madden or Fisher. He uses his league leading stick checking and escapability at both ends of the ice. Nobody in the world can compare to him in these area. When he's constantly attacking you, you are on the defensive and are scrambling to cover him and not attacking. When he comes at guys on the forecheck, he is spooking them into making a mistake by coughing it up or hurrying the pass. It's call puck possession. Pavel on the forcheck is like a leopard seal chasing penguins around... The wings epitomize the puck possession style and Pavel exemplifies it... Are you guys gonna have an argument or just assertions? Pavel scores too much? The offensive type of Selke winner gets about 30 goals and has a high +/-. We're not talking about his cohort, just him.

I'm not sure what you mean by arguments versus assertions. Aren't arguments comprised in part by assertions?

Anyway, Datsyuk is definitely a better overall player than Madden or Fisher.

But Madden is more deserving of the Selke trophy than Pavel. It's not about who's the best overall player, it's about the forward who best exemplifies the defensive aspects of the game. When comparing the two players, Madden better represents that then Dats. That's not to say Dats isn't a good two way player though.

[dicksmack 33]

I'm not sure what you mean by arguments versus assertions. Aren't arguments comprised in part by assertions?

Anyway, Datsyuk is definitely a better overall player than Madden or Fisher.

But Madden is more deserving of the Selke trophy than Pavel. It's not about who's the best overall player, it's about the forward who best exemplifies the defensive aspects of the game. When comparing the two players, Madden better represents that then Dats. That's not to say Dats isn't a good two way player though.

Oh my that's comical... Yes, arguments are but the point was... (drumroll) they are not in themselves sufficent. An argument, you see, has conclusions supported by premises .(valid reasons). Assertions are like conclusions without nothing holding them up-- aka begging the question... Every so often, i need to remember why I don't waste time here anymore... Even though it's my favourite topic (wings) it's a waste...

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Oh my that's comical... Yes, arguments are but the point was... (drumroll) they are not in themselves sufficent. An argument, you see, has conclusions supported by premises .(valid reasons). Assertions are like conclusions without nothing holding them up-- aka begging the question... Every so often, i need to remember why I don't waste time here anymore... Even though it's my favourite topic (wings) it's a waste...

okay, smart guy. So how do you back these arguments up other than with assertions. Stats? If you know anything about the Selke Trophy, it comes down to so much more than stats.

So what it comes down to watching the games and having an opinion, which is kind of the basis of these fan forums. Opinions.

The only reason you don't see any substantial arguments here is because you're ignoring them. I stated several reasons in this thread why Madden is a better choice for the Selke than Datsyuk. Just because you think they're invalid doesn't make it so.

Madden plays a more defensive role on his team than Dats. He takes more faceoffs and wins a lot of them. He hits, he blocks shots, he takes the puck away. He is called upon to shut down the opposition's top players.

Are none of those holding up my choice of Madden?

And you've already wasted an awful lot of time in this thread so far. Don't let me keep you from leaving.

Edited for grammar.

Edited March 15, 2008 by haroldsnepsts

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I also forgot to add that Madden spends much more time on the PK than Dats. He's their number one penalty killer by a wide margin, whereas Dats is 7th on the team on avg pk time per game.

All of these points are ones I've raised before in this thread, yet they apparently still don't support my argument?

Edited March 15, 2008 by haroldsnepsts

[YoungGuns1340 1]

I also forgot to add that Madden spends much more time on the PK than Dats. He's their number one penalty killer by a wide margin, whereas Dats is 7th on the team on avg pk time per game.

All of these points are ones I've raised before in this thread, yet they apparently still don't support my argument?

But Datsyuk leads all forwards in the league in +/-!!!!!!

(Pandolfo and Pahlsson, both nominees for last years Selke, were minus players)

Edited March 16, 2008 by YoungGuns1340

[Guest LivingtheDream]

Pavel on the forcheck is like a leopard seal chasing penguins around...

Another Datsyuk takeaway (see pic below).

Eva, you still don't get it. "Fact" doesn't mean fact just because you say so or pull out various numbers that appear to support your claims while someone else (with spare time who obviously masturbates less than you) could go and find numbers that state the opposite . Its like a Bible quoting with stats. "The Bible says all fags should burn in hell!" Oh yea, "The Bible says love and forgive..." You have yet to prove anything in a way that is reproducible. Science 101. Yawn...

So this is what we have learned. The Selke is a highly subjective award usually given to a "defensive forward" which seems to mean a forward who can't score and then suddenly has a good season scoring. Big woop. That doesn't fit Federov at all (though Draper to a T). I would argue that what Federov did was far more impressive than Draper's Selke season and I would like to see the award mean more that a stellar offensive player picks up his D game to a whole new level (again, vs the offensively mediocre D forward who scores 20). Whatever this trophy means it seems like it is anyones guess and Dat's hasn't a prayer. So what, the guy is playing at a level all his own.

Edited March 16, 2008 by LivingtheDream

[rage 24]

Maybe someday Flip will win the Selke??!?!?

[eva unit zero 271]

Another Datsyuk takeaway (see pic below).

Eva, you still don't get it. "Fact" doesn't mean fact just because you say so or pull out various numbers that appear to support your claims while someone else (with spare time who obviously masturbates less than you) could go and find numbers that state the opposite . Its like a Bible quoting with stats. "The Bible says all fags should burn in hell!" Oh yea, "The Bible says love and forgive..." You have yet to prove anything in a way that is reproducible. Science 101. Yawn...

So this is what we have learned. The Selke is a highly subjective award usually given to a "defensive forward" which seems to mean a forward who can't score and then suddenly has a good season scoring. Big woop. That doesn't fit Federov at all (though Draper to a T). I would argue that what Federov did was far more impressive than Draper's Selke season and I would like to see the award mean more that a stellar offensive player picks up his D game to a whole new level (again, vs the offensively mediocre D forward who scores 20). Whatever this trophy means it seems like it is anyones guess and Dat's hasn't a prayer. So what, the guy is playing at a level all his own.

The Selke is the award for the forward who plays the best defense. This often ends up being a skilled defensive forward who has been in the running for the award a couple times and then has an unusually high offensive output, a la Draper 2004 or Peca 2002, without a necessary improvement of defensive play, and sometimes even weaker defensive play. It has never been awarded to an offensive forward who has improved his defensive game from liability to above average.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

But Datsyuk leads all forwards in the league in +/-!!!!!!

(Pandolfo and Pahlsson, both nominees for last years Selke, were minus players)

I know. apparently my argument is weak, yet the underlying argument behind Dats winning the Selke seems to be "Datsyuk is awesome!" combined with his +/- and takeaway stats.

[dicksmack 33]

But Datsyuk leads all forwards in the league in +/-!!!!!!

(Pandolfo and Pahlsson, both nominees for last years Selke, were minus players)

So? like eva's example, this is anecdotal... (just one example). You've told us about the guys who DIDN'T WIN, for ONE year... Nice work professor... What about that minus player's don't win it...?