Pavel Datsyuk for the Selke

[TCfan1340 0]

http://www.nhl.com/nhlstats/app

under individual stats, click on summary and it will give you a list, click on RTSS, then get stats... when the page opens you can click on any of the stats across the top to see the leaders.

[Doggy 130]

No, he's not. He never will be. But it's comparing apples to oranges. And you need to stop doing that. They are two different, separate people...neither one is the same as the other. Pasha has the potential to be better than Fedorov ever was. Give him a break and stop comparing them.

I apologise. I shouldn't have compared a great defensive forward with someone who everyone is saying is a great defensive forward. It was wrong of me to do so and will not happen again. You have my word.

Anything else I should stop doing?

[norrisnick 1]

No, he's not. He never will be. But it's comparing apples to oranges. And you need to stop doing that. They are two different, separate people...neither one is the same as the other. Pasha has the potential to be better than Fedorov ever was. Give him a break and stop comparing them.

I'm gonna have to to go ahead and disagree with that. Pavel can't touch early/mid 90s Fedorov. That '94 season was epic.

[eva unit zero 271]

No, he's not. He never will be. But it's comparing apples to oranges. And you need to stop doing that. They are two different, separate people...neither one is the same as the other. Pasha has the potential to be better than Fedorov ever was. Give him a break and stop comparing them.

Kira, time for your reality check. Here's a comparison of Fedorov's and Datsyuk's careers for completed seasons from age 21 (Start of Feds' career) through age 28 (Datsyuk's 2006-07 season):

Age 21:

Fedorov, NHL 77 GP, 31-48-79

Datsyuk, Rus 15 GP, 1-3-4

Age 22:

Fedorov, NHL 80 GP, 32-54-86

Datsyuk, Rus 42 GP, 9-17-26

Age 23:

Fedorov, NHL 73 GP, 34-53-87

Datsyuk, NHL 70 GP, 11-24-35

Age 24:

Fedorov, NHL 82 GP, 56-64-120 Hart, Selke

Datsyuk, NHL 64 GP, 12-39-51

Age 25:

Fedorov, NHL 42 GP, 20-30-50, 24 point playoff

Datsyuk, NHL 75 GP, 30-38-68

Age 26:

Fedorov, NHL 78 GP, 39-68-107 Selke, 20 point playoff

Datsyuk, NHL 47 GP, 15-20-35

Age 27:

Fedorov, NHL 74 GP, 30-33-63, 20 point playoff

Datsyuk, NHL 75 GP, 28-59-87

Age 28:

Fedorov, NHL 21 GP, 6-11-17, 20 point playoff

Datsyuk, NHL 79 GP, 27-60-87

While Datsyuk has the better offensive numbers towards the end of that run...he is still nowhere near Fedorov's best years. At either end of the ice. And typically, players don't do much improving once they reach the age of 30, which Datsyuk hits later this year.

[2probert4 8]

the only other defensive forward to compete is Z

but yea i would like to see lids for norris and dats for selke and byng, plus babs for jack adams

I don't think Babs gets the Jack Adams, I think Gretzky will be a finalist, along with Montreal's coach. If the Hawks make the playoffs, you will have to consider Savard. Dats may get the Byng again, and he has improved his defensive play, but i'm not sure if he will get it or not, Zetterberg gets praise for his defensive play so he may take votes from Dats.

[2probert4 8]

Kira, time for your reality check. Here's a comparison of Fedorov's and Datsyuk's careers for completed seasons from age 21 (Start of Feds' career) through age 28 (Datsyuk's 2006-07 season):

Age 21:

Fedorov, NHL 77 GP, 31-48-79

Datsyuk, Rus 15 GP, 1-3-4

Age 22:

Fedorov, NHL 80 GP, 32-54-86

Datsyuk, Rus 42 GP, 9-17-26

Age 23:

Fedorov, NHL 73 GP, 34-53-87

Datsyuk, NHL 70 GP, 11-24-35

Age 24:

Fedorov, NHL 82 GP, 56-64-120 Hart, Selke

Datsyuk, NHL 64 GP, 12-39-51

Age 25:

Fedorov, NHL 42 GP, 20-30-50, 24 point playoff

Datsyuk, NHL 75 GP, 30-38-68

Age 26:

Fedorov, NHL 78 GP, 39-68-107 Selke, 20 point playoff

Datsyuk, NHL 47 GP, 15-20-35

Age 27:

Fedorov, NHL 74 GP, 30-33-63, 20 point playoff

Datsyuk, NHL 75 GP, 28-59-87

Age 28:

Fedorov, NHL 21 GP, 6-11-17, 20 point playoff

Datsyuk, NHL 79 GP, 27-60-87

While Datsyuk has the better offensive numbers towards the end of that run...he is still nowhere near Fedorov's best years. At either end of the ice. And typically, players don't do much improving once they reach the age of 30, which Datsyuk hits later this year.

Ahhh yes, back to good ol EV posting stats again... I remember those days in the Yahoo NHL room where Ev would do that over and over in the Osgood arguments.

[BeeRYCE 2]

Take a look at Malkin right now... Okay, combine that with even more defensive awareness, and you have Sergei Fedorov.

[redwinger4747 6]

where is a site that shows giveaways/takeaways

Take the giveaways statistic with a grain of salt because the best players are the one who have the puck the most - and players who have the puck the most are likely to give it away every now and then; more than players who never have the puck. It is like in basketball, Michael Jordan is near the top of the list for most missed shots in a career - because he always had the ball and took tons of shots so he was bound to pile up a lot of misses.

Takeaways is a much better statistic because it shows who is the best at going and getting the puck, only good players would get a lot of these.

[eva unit zero 271]

Ahhh yes, back to good ol EV posting stats again... I remember those days in the Yahoo NHL room where Ev would do that over and over in the Osgood arguments.

It's like the thread about who the best offensive players are. Somehow Martin Havlat's name came up a few times as a top offensive player, despite the fact that he hasn't ever had 'elite' numbers, which are ultimately the measure of offensive performance.

You can say "I think this guy is as good as that guy" all you want, but for it to be true as far as offense, the stats will bear out the truth.

As far as defense...I included the fact that Fedorov won two Selkes in his first six seasons, while Datsyuk has yet to be top ten in Selke voting.

[Hank 0]

The Selke has got to be one of the toughest awards to give out these days.

It used to be easy back in the day as only 1 player on each team would backcheck.

But now, with the exception of Kovalchuk, everyone comes back hard.

So it'll probably come down to who has the best +/- with the most points. I'd say Datsyuk and Zetts will get serious looks for this award.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

It's like the thread about who the best offensive players are. Somehow Martin Havlat's name came up a few times as a top offensive player, despite the fact that he hasn't ever had 'elite' numbers, which are ultimately the measure of offensive performance.

You can say "I think this guy is as good as that guy" all you want, but for it to be true as far as offense, the stats will bear out the truth.

As far as defense...I included the fact that Fedorov won two Selkes in his first six seasons, while Datsyuk has yet to be top ten in Selke voting.

Yeah, it was me who brought up Havlat's name. I did so because IMO he's one of the best one on one, pure snipers in the game. Which was how I based my list. It wasn't based upon stats just personal opinion.

So way to take it out of context Eva.

By the way Eva, why is it that whenever I point out the folly of some of your statistical analysis, like the ones where you make up some crazy number that's a combination or compilation of stats that you totally and arbitrarily make up or when you just have your stats wrong, you never respond to those posts? It's happened about 3 times in the past 6 months.

[dicksmack 33]

I can't see neither Z or Dats getting recognition, unfortunately. It will probably go to Fisher this year.

Fisher is currently a -9.

[imisssergei 0]

No, he's not. He never will be. But it's comparing apples to oranges. And you need to stop doing that. They are two different, separate people...neither one is the same as the other. Pasha has the potential to be better than Fedorov ever was. Give him a break and stop comparing them.

Datsyuk is good, but not that good. Fedorov was the most well rounded hockey player in the world in his prime. No way Datsyuk can play d for an entire game and not look foolish. Fedorov could have been a Norris winner had he played d more often. Yes, he was that good.

[dicksmack 33]

Please STFU about Fedorov already...

[Hank 0]

Take a look at Malkin right now... Okay, combine that with even more defensive awareness, and you have Sergei Fedorov.

Yeah, it's easy to forget how dominant Feds was at both ends of the rink. The first 8 years of his career were arguabley one of the best any player has ever had.

Then stupid Enrique Englasias had to ruin everything!!

Edited March 10, 2008 by Hank

[toby91_ca 620]

I think people are too quick to look at +/- stats or takeaways and figure that must be very important when determining who the best defensive forward is.

I'm not saying Datsyuk isn't good defensively, but to suggest he is a lock for the Selke is a bit of homerism.....throw on top of that the thought that Zetterberg is #2. Is is entirely possible that the top 2 defensive forwards in the league play for the same team, but it is highly, highly unlikely.

For the record, in my opinion, it is probably the most difficult award to judge by simply looking at stats.

[Kira 451]

Please STFU about Fedorov already...

Thank you! Christ, you would think I committed blasphemy saying they're not the same. Jeez, people, get the hell over it. It's two different people, two different styles...you guys act like I insulted your mother or something.

[Hank 0]

Thank you! Christ, you would think I committed blasphemy saying they're not the same. Jeez, people, get the hell over it. It's two different people, two different styles...you guys act like I insulted your mother or something.

Hahaha! Sorry to pick on you Kira, but that's exactly how you react, at times, when someone says anything negative about Datsyuk.

I think we're all guilty of being homers towards the team or individual players at times.

However, I can see why people would compare Dats and Feds. They do play similar in some respects.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I think people are too quick to look at +/- stats or takeaways and figure that must be very important when determining who the best defensive forward is.

I'm not saying Datsyuk isn't good defensively, but to suggest he is a lock for the Selke is a bit of homerism.....throw on top of that the thought that Zetterberg is #2. Is is entirely possible that the top 2 defensive forwards in the league play for the same team, but it is highly, highly unlikely.

For the record, in my opinion, it is probably the most difficult award to judge by simply looking at stats.

Exactly what I was going to say.

Dats is a total pickpocket and sound defensively, but honestly I don't think he's top 3 for the Selke. Mainly because he isn't asked to be a shutdown forward most of the time. When everyone is healthy, Dats doesn't even log a lot of ice time on the PK, which you'd expect a true defensive forward to do.

And while +/- plays some role, I think that stat in particular needs to be looked at in context. You can't just go by the guy with the highest number because a true defensive forward is typically going to play a lot of time against a team's top lines.

[dicksmack 33]

Well, I don't think Pavel's competition are having very strong seasons. He does stand out. But his offensive prowess tends to eclipse his defense. If he wanted to focus on that, he could easily be the at the top of the league in that department. He's got the speed, the awareness, the hands. He's the first guy back on the back check, saves more goals than he scores, and on the pk, watch how many times he makes the opposing pp puck carrier turn back/ make a questionable pass.

Who is Fisher "shutting down" if he's -9? It's true that +/- can be a skewed stat, but perhaps some stats freaks might show us an example of a past Selke winner who was well into the minus... I mean there's still time in the season for Fisher to get his sh*t together in this area but...

edit: a check of the plus/minus of the last ten years or so of Selke winners, showed none of them were in the minus...

Edited March 10, 2008 by dicksmack

[Nev 1,085]

Dats is a total pickpocket and sound defensively, but honestly I don't think he's top 3 for the Selke. Mainly because he isn't asked to be a shutdown forward most of the time. When everyone is healthy, Dats doesn't even log a lot of ice time on the PK, which you'd expect a true defensive forward to do.

Except Babcock likes to match him up against the oppositions top line (as a previous poster pointed out).

Yes, the Selke is a hard award to judge, but when you lead all forwards in plus/minus, lead all forwards in takeaways, are top 10 in face-offs, when your team allows the fewest shots and the fewest goals, when you lead that team in blocked shots by a forward, and you're the number one centre routinely matched against the opponents #1 line....

I mean seriously guys, what more does Pavel have to do?

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Except Babcock likes to match him up against the oppositions top line (as a previous poster pointed out).

Yes, the Selke is a hard award to judge, but when you lead all forwards in plus/minus, lead all forwards in takeaways, are top 10 in face-offs, when your team allows the fewest shots and the fewest goals, when you lead that team in blocked shots by a forward, and you're the number one centre routinely matched against the opponents #1 line....

I mean seriously guys, what more does Pavel have to do?

You mean besides be a defensive forward?

And I have to question two things in your post.

First, where did you find the stat on him being top 10 in faceoff %?

Dats is really good on faceoffs, but honestly I'd be surprised if he was top 10 in the league. So many guys will be bunched together on that stat. And he only takes 17% of the teams faceoffs. So any top ten list would have to have some sort of criteria for how many total faceoffs taken and how much of the teams faceoffs a player should take to even qualify for the list. Otherwise the top ten list would be full of guys who've taken one faceoff and won it.

Second, is him being the number one center matched against the opponents #1 line. Yes he may be out there against the other teams top line, but that's a different thing than being matched against the top line with the primary objective being to shut down their star player.

The team leading stats could work for or against Dats. he's obviously a big part of those numbers, but also his numbers benefit from Detroit being a strong defensive team. it's the chicken/egg argument.

I don't know what to tell you. Dats is a great player. And like I said he's a total pickpocket and very responsible defensively. But to me that doesn't make him the best defensive forward in the league. It's not that he couldn't become one, it's just not his job. Among forwards, he averages less PK time per game than Draper, Cleary, Z, Maltby, Franzen, and even Drake.

The bottom line though is it comes down to more than stats. Great plus minus and huge takeaways doesn't mean he's the best defensive forward in the league.

[dicksmack 33]

You mean besides be a defensive forward?

And I have to question two things in your post.

First, where did you find the stat on him being top 10 in faceoff %?

Dats is really good on faceoffs, but honestly I'd be surprised if he was top 10 in the league. So many guys will be bunched together on that stat. And he only takes 17% of the teams faceoffs. So any top ten list would have to have some sort of criteria for how many total faceoffs taken and how much of the teams faceoffs a player should take to even qualify for the list. Otherwise the top ten list would be full of guys who've taken one faceoff and won it.

Second, is him being the number one center matched against the opponents #1 line. Yes he may be out there against the other teams top line, but that's a different thing than being matched against the top line with the primary objective being to shut down their star player.

The team leading stats could work for or against Dats. he's obviously a big part of those numbers, but also his numbers benefit from Detroit being a strong defensive team. it's the chicken/egg argument.

I don't know what to tell you. Dats is a great player. And like I said he's a total pickpocket and very responsible defensively. But to me that doesn't make him the best defensive forward in the league. It's not that he couldn't become one, it's just not his job. Among forwards, he averages less PK time per game than Draper, Cleary, Z, Maltby, Franzen, and even Drake.

The bottom line though is it comes down to more than stats. Great plus minus and huge takeaways doesn't mean he's the best defensive forward in the league.

Just because Pavel's role transcends the defensive aspect doesn't mean he's not the best defensive forward as well. You don't need stats to realize this, just watch him play. Tell me, who's else is having a Selke type year?

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Just because Pavel's role transcends the defensive aspect doesn't mean he's not the best defensive forward as well. You don't need stats to realize this, just watch him play. Tell me, who's else is having a Selke type year?

Is there a point in my throwing out any names? It seems clear your mind is made up that Datsyuk is the best defensive forward in the league.

Again, it's just not his role. A true defensive forward would have a lot more time on the PK than Dats is. That is not a knock on Dats, it's just not what he's asked to do. He is one of the best forwards in the league for sure, just not the best defensive one in my book.

And my opinion is based mostly watching him play, not the stats.

Edited March 11, 2008 by haroldsnepsts

[Nev 1,085]

You mean besides be a defensive forward?

Since when did you have to be a defensive forward to win the Selke? Sergei Fedorov, Steve Yzerman, Ron Francis....need I go on?

First, where did you find the stat on him being top 10 in faceoff %?

Not checked the stat lately, but he was there last time I looked. From memory he was 7th last year.

EDIT: Just checked NHL.com, Datsyuk is 20th @ 54.5%, but there's no filter on min number of face-offs that I can see, and there's a few guys ahead of him on the list who I imagine don't have that many - Jamal Meyers? David Steckel?

As for the number of face-offs he takes - the wings are *real* good on face-offs, possibly the best in the league, with Zetterberg (4th) and Draper (2nd) as well. Pavel has tended to play LW when he's out there with Z, so naturally his share of the face-offs will be slightly less.

Second, is him being the number one center matched against the opponents #1 line. Yes he may be out there against the other teams top line, but that's a different thing than being matched against the top line with the primary objective being to shut down their star player.

Isn't that essentially the same thing? He is there to outplay the other sides top line - which his plus/minus, and the wings record, shows that he does more often than not.

The team leading stats could work for or against Dats. he's obviously a big part of those numbers, but also his numbers benefit from Detroit being a strong defensive team. it's the chicken/egg argument.

I agree.