Hasek's Soft Goals

[Stevie4Pres 0]

I've read this forum for a while and finally decided to post, thanks to the members for all their insight and knowledge that I've gained from reading here.... Anyway to my point.

I've read a lot about how Hasek "should have" stopped the long shots and and how the goals were "soft" but I have not read any analysis on why he should have stopped those shots.

Here's my thoughts

Lack of confidence: Hasek was playing too far back in the crease, he should have been right on top of the crease to cut down the angle. Had he moved up 3-4 ft on the long shots I believe (no way to say for sure) there's a good chance he stops those. Regardless of whether there's a deflection, if there is no angle to the goal then the puck doesn't go in.

He seemed to handle the scrums in front of the net and odd man rushes very well. It was the long shots and deflections that got by...

Disclaimer... I'm not trying to start a bash on Dom thread, I just want some analysis on why these pucks beat Dom.

I would like to hear from others that know more about goaltending to chime in and give me their take.

Thanks!!

[jvxp 0]

I've read this forum for a while and finally decided to post, thanks to the members for all their insight and knowledge that I've gained from reading here.... Anyway to my point.

I've read a lot about how Hasek "should have" stopped the long shots and and how the goals were "soft" but I have not read any analysis on why he should have stopped those shots.

Here's my thoughts

Lack of confidence: Hasek was playing too far back in the crease, he should have been right on top of the crease to cut down the angle. Had he moved up 3-4 ft on the long shots I believe (no way to say for sure) there's a good chance he stops those. Regardless of whether there's a deflection, if there is no angle to the goal then the puck doesn't go in.

He seemed to handle the scrums in front of the net and odd man rushes very well. It was the long shots and deflections that got by...

Disclaimer... I'm not trying to start a bash on Dom thread, I just want some analysis on why these pucks beat Dom.

I would like to hear from others that know more about goaltending to chime in and give me their take.

Thanks!!

I thought he was far enough out of the crease for those long shots. He just missed them. I just think the game is starting to pass him by and Cheli also. It's a young mans game and those two are getting old.

[redwings56 1]

For the point about him playing in his crease, that is how he has been and always will be. He is an odd-style of a goalie. Can't fix that with him, watch old video of him. He is always flopping and his game was never position but rather good reaction time. He will get back in the grove if Ozzy ever gets yanked

[GoalieManPat 1,007]

Hasek thread #500 since Wednesday

[puckloo39 5,686]

Hasek thread #500 since Wednesday

every thread is a Hasek thread, and an opportunity to bash!

[redwings56 1]

Maybe the locker room will get disrupted now if Dom starts to fuss. He was good with it throughout the season, but how does he feel now!

[puckloo39 5,686]

Maybe the locker room will get disrupted now if Dom starts to fuss. He was good with it throughout the season, but how does he feel now!

please stop. There is NO evidence that this is happening, or will.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Maybe the locker room will get disrupted now if Dom starts to fuss. He was good with it throughout the season, but how does he feel now!

Rumor is that he blames Lidstrom for all his soft goals.

Just adding a little fuel on the fire.

[Wingfan191 2]

There's a lot to factor in with Hasek though. He's not a big goalie, he's very very skinny. He weighs like 165 lbs for crying out loud. That's extra width he doesn't have over basically every other goalie in the league. Pucks were going in under his arm or right above his shoulder, and while I'm definetly not saying this is the be all end all cause to goals being scored on him, it has SOME to do with it.

Also, like Babcock said in his interviews, pucks just weren't hitting Dom. He's having a string of back luck the past 3 games. If he's maybe an inch to his right or left, the puck hits him and it's a save.

If you look at the shot charts from the last few games, most of the goals were scored from far out. But look how many saves he makes from shots in the slot and in close, quite a few. Now you HAVE to think that any NHL goalie will stop a shot from the point if he can see it and it doesn't get deflected, so why were goals going in on him from far our? Simple, he wasn't seeing the puck nearly as well as he would've liked to.

I don't care if he's 23 years old, or 43 years old, a goalie will stop a shot he can see if he can get set and in position. And you can't believe that an NHL goaltender just all of a sudden loses his reaction time and reflex's over a month's time.

Just look at the goals that went in on him the past game. First goal was a cross crease one timer on the pp. The Preds D man got off a great shot and got it up high, that's a perfect shot. No goalie is gonna stop that unless the shooter just shoots it into them. They won't have time to react to get a glove on it. Dom was in good position too, he got over in time, in the butterfly, he wasn't trying some crazy pad stack save, and the shooter made a great shot. End of story. The 2nd goal he never saw until probably it got past Kronwall's butt. I've watched that replay over and over again from the behind the net cam, and while it's of course not exactly what Dom can see, I never saw the D man take the shot due to Kronwall and the Preds player skating right in front of Dom as the shot was being taken. Also, add in the fact that Drake slide down to try and block the shot, putting another body in the way. Dom was at the top of his crease, set, and ready to stop that shot, yet it still went in to his RIGHT. That means he never had time to judge where the shot was actually going, he played it as best he could and had to hope it hit him. The shot gets to the net in under a second, and if he can't see it being fired, that means Dom has less than half a second to pick it up and react to it, it's too late by then. The third goal was one I think he would've had if not for the Preds player skating right in front of him before the shot got to Dom. Dom appeared to have seen the shot get taken cleanly, but yet it still got past him, so why? Like I said, right before the puck was about to hit Dom, a Preds player skated right in front of him and probably startled or made him second guess where the puck would end up so he relaxed on the save, thus allowing it to go under his arm. He has to assume that the Preds player skating in front is going to try and tip it in, so he can't be frozen in a save position if he thinks he'll have to react to a tip.

That's my theory on the last 3 goals which have gotten past him, but I still don't think it's just due to his lack of skill. It's bad breaks and bad timing, and sometimes you need to just step back and let someone else come in, ie, Ozzie, to try and right the ship. I'm sure Hasek wants the team to win more than anything and prides a Cup victory over his GAA and save % in the playoffs at this point in his career. If Osgood has a rough couple of games, I would have no problem with Dom coming back in and trying to re-deem himself. Perhaps by then, the fortunes will have changed and the bounces will go his way.

[Superman54 91]

Well im gonna answer this thread, rather then complaining about how many Hasek threads there are, and how he gets bashed. I do find that a waste of energy.

Hasek is 43 years old. It is very tough to perform in NHL level when your body gets worn down soo much faster. I know back in his earlier days. Most of those Nashville goals would have never found the back of the net. He had a rough season this year, even though he had 28 wins, he was never really his dominator self. Too many injuries and set backs made Hasek struggle to find his groove back. I'll be honest, I didn't have much faith at all in Hasek going into the playoffs. I knew he wasn't the same as he was last year. But I hear too many excuses saying most goals were not his fault. We could find excuses for every single goal he lets in, but what good does that do. In the end of the day, Hasek didn't play all that good, and now its Ozzie turn to lead this squad.

[puckloo39 5,686]

There's a lot to factor in with Hasek though. He's not a big goalie, he's very very skinny. He weighs like 165 lbs for crying out loud. That's extra width he doesn't have over basically every other goalie in the league. Pucks were going in under his arm or right above his shoulder, and while I'm definetly not saying this is the be all end all cause to goals being scored on him, it has SOME to do with it.

Also, like Babcock said in his interviews, pucks just weren't hitting Dom. He's having a string of back luck the past 3 games. If he's maybe an inch to his right or left, the puck hits him and it's a save.

If you look at the shot charts from the last few games, most of the goals were scored from far out. But look how many saves he makes from shots in the slot and in close, quite a few. Now you HAVE to think that any NHL goalie will stop a shot from the point if he can see it and it doesn't get deflected, so why were goals going in on him from far our? Simple, he wasn't seeing the puck nearly as well as he would've liked to.

I don't care if he's 23 years old, or 43 years old, a goalie will stop a shot he can see if he can get set and in position. And you can't believe that an NHL goaltender just all of a sudden loses his reaction time and reflex's over a month's time.

Just look at the goals that went in on him the past game. First goal was a cross crease one timer on the pp. The Preds D man got off a great shot and got it up high, that's a perfect shot. No goalie is gonna stop that unless the shooter just shoots it into them. They won't have time to react to get a glove on it. Dom was in good position too, he got over in time, in the butterfly, he wasn't trying some crazy pad stack save, and the shooter made a great shot. End of story. The 2nd goal he never saw until probably it got past Kronwall's butt. I've watched that replay over and over again from the behind the net cam, and while it's of course not exactly what Dom can see, I never saw the D man take the shot due to Kronwall and the Preds player skating right in front of Dom as the shot was being taken. Also, add in the fact that Drake slide down to try and block the shot, putting another body in the way. Dom was at the top of his crease, set, and ready to stop that shot, yet it still went in to his RIGHT. That means he never had time to judge where the shot was actually going, he played it as best he could and had to hope it hit him. The shot gets to the net in under a second, and if he can't see it being fired, that means Dom has less than half a second to pick it up and react to it, it's too late by then. The third goal was one I think he would've had if not for the Preds player skating right in front of him before the shot got to Dom. Dom appeared to have seen the shot get taken cleanly, but yet it still got past him, so why? Like I said, right before the puck was about to hit Dom, a Preds player skated right in front of him and probably startled or made him second guess where the puck would end up so he relaxed on the save, thus allowing it to go under his arm. He has to assume that the Preds player skating in front is going to try and tip it in, so he can't be frozen in a save position if he thinks he'll have to react to a tip.

That's my theory on the last 3 goals which have gotten past him, but I still don't think it's just due to his lack of skill. It's bad breaks and bad timing, and sometimes you need to just step back and let someone else come in, ie, Ozzie, to try and right the ship. I'm sure Hasek wants the team to win more than anything and prides a Cup victory over his GAA and save % in the playoffs at this point in his career. If Osgood has a rough couple of games, I would have no problem with Dom coming back in and trying to re-deem himself. Perhaps by then, the fortunes will have changed and the bounces will go his way.

Nice post. Very few will listen or agree here. Dom's scrawny, but he's tough. Let 'em pile on, he can handle it. As for his skills disappearing, that's not the issue at all as you say.

It's Detroit. Two games where the entire team was rattled = Hasek is the reason. I can't blame Babs for doing what he has to do, he has no other choice, really. Ozzie will do fine. The team is on board and knows they have to play better. If they go to the net instead of pasting easy-to-see pucks on Ellis, they will be fine and the offense will magically reappear. They've already said that they know the D was part of the reason for the lapsesand goals scored in Game 3-4, and they they know they have to play better, too.

Or, one could just take the simpler route and blame Hasek. That seems to be working for most. Whatever it takes, just win.

[dallas27 7]

I've read this forum for a while and finally decided to post, thanks to the members for all their insight and knowledge that I've gained from reading here.... Anyway to my point.

I've read a lot about how Hasek "should have" stopped the long shots and and how the goals were "soft" but I have not read any analysis on why he should have stopped those shots.

Here's my thoughts

Lack of confidence: Hasek was playing too far back in the crease, he should have been right on top of the crease to cut down the angle. Had he moved up 3-4 ft on the long shots I believe (no way to say for sure) there's a good chance he stops those. Regardless of whether there's a deflection, if there is no angle to the goal then the puck doesn't go in.

He seemed to handle the scrums in front of the net and odd man rushes very well. It was the long shots and deflections that got by...

Disclaimer... I'm not trying to start a bash on Dom thread, I just want some analysis on why these pucks beat Dom.

I would like to hear from others that know more about goaltending to chime in and give me their take.

Thanks!!

Simple answer. ANY, ANY goalie in the NHL that has a clear view of a slap shot from anywhere near the blue line has no excuse not to stop it. You know the slap shot is coming so you have more than enough time to get set, square and ready for it so there really isn't an excuse for a shot that long when there is no obstruction of view to go in. And it just doesn't apply to Hasek. Need I remind people that Osgood was at blame for this a while back as well, which actually was a focus point of discussion about him until he caught fire this season. Now you don't even hear about it.

You are spot on about challenging, especially with a shot from that far away. The more you move out the less net there is to shoot at. On the long goals, if I remember correctly, he actually was challenging a little bit which was surprising. They just beat him in between the five hole, a few of them hit his stick and just kept going which is worse. Hold that stick. Osgood is more of a traditional butterfly goaltender and cuts down his angles really well when compared to Hasek which is why you really don't see as many deflection goals on him, he takes up more net. Jimmy Howard is even better at it.

[MabusIncarnate 5,359]

My thoughts on the situation are this... Look at the price we paid for Hasek. We stack heavily and pay just as heavy into our defense, which should be the focus, not the goaltending. During the trading talks with Luongo, everyone wanted him to land here. Fact is, we pay a heavy price for a better goaltender like Luongo, Turco, or anyone of that calibur sure goaltending is a little better, but then we can kiss a new contract to Zetterberg goodbye and be two short on scoring wingers, which will be the next thing people will complain about. We aren't letting up many goals, but we aren't scoring many either. It's a vicious cycle. Point being, with the salary cap and the quality of goaltender that we got for the price, we have a good balance overall and it's the best decision for the future to ride Hasek who may not be stellar, but is by all means solid for a cheap price so we can afford to keep the players we need. Being number one and getting outplayed by number eight should be a team concern, not a goaltending concern. I'm not saying blame the defense, we've only been outshot in game three, but there's more to be looking at aside from Hasek.

[OsGOD 3]

Why pay for a "better" goaltender like Bobby Luo when he has only played 1 playoff series in his illustrious career

I would rather pay peanuts for our "scrubs" and have better success come post season!

Edited April 18, 2008 by OsGOD

[DyingAlive 27]

Rumor is that he blames Lidstrom for all his soft goals.

Just adding a little fuel on the fire.

Really? Cause I heard Hasek was insulting every Wings D-Man, I even heard 'Yo-Mama' jokes got involved. Pretty heated stuff.

[puckloo39 5,686]

Really? Cause I heard Hasek was insulting every Wings D-Man, I even heard 'Yo-Mama' jokes got involved. Pretty heated stuff.

Dom could never pull off the "Yo-Mama-ween" jokes, no one would understand him.

[wingslogo19 281]

How many threads are we going to have about this

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

How many threads are we going to have about this

Until we win tonight. Of course if we don't, then expect this thread to be 10 times as long, even though he isn't even playiing.

[cboth686 0]

I've been playing goal for 14 years now (since I was 8 I'm now 22) so I will let you know what I think has been wrong with Dom.

1. Lack of confidence - Going into a hockey game as a goaltender without any confidence is about as scary as it can get in any sport. First off, the lights are on you, you know you're going to be analyzed for playing either great or poorly. You begin thinking bout how you are going to make the saves and this is a problem because goalies (and atheletes in general) play their best when they aren't thinking about the game perse, rather just playing in the zone.

2. Positioning - Dom has been playing WAY too deep in his net, and I mean WAY too deep. If he is only 165 lbs that's no excuse. All that means is that you need to play further out. I'm only 5'7" (150ish giver er take depending how many beers I suck down!) and I play on the top of blue when guys are in the hash marks. I need to do this to cut down the angle or I get beat on shots. However, a lot of the confidence factor plays into this because as a goalie is more confident you will see him coming out and being more agressive. So 1 & 2 sort of tie into one another.

3. Age and groins! - Dom is gettting old, and he's become some-what of a band-aid. Nagging groin injuries are particularily bad for goalies because of the lateral movement involved. THUS, I think this plays into why he's possibly playing so deep. That way if a shot does go from right to left (or vice versa) dom is still in the middle of the net giving himself a better chance to stop the biscuit, avoiding being caught out of position up high or on the other side of the ice completely. It could be that he's lost mobility from side to side and thus has to play deeper in his net to compensate.

4. Mind Games - Goalies are weird. I know! We skilled tradesmen can often get into psychological warfare with ourselves when things aren't going our way. In Ray Emery's case, he took it out on his teammates! None the less, you begin to question your own abilities and talent and that's a big time UH OH! Dom seemed to be fighting the puck and himself more than anything.

Overall, Dom said it himself: "The last 2 games are the worst I've played in my career." (or something like that.) When a tendy says that and stops blaming bounces and what not, you know they're mentally beat and everyone knows goaltending is about 70% and 30% physical. (That's what they used to tell me in Goalie camps anyways.)

DISCLAIMER: This isn't bashing Dom (as angry as I am with him!) You asked for a goalie's perspective so there mine is. Hope that helps.

[lfd250 1]

Pretty simple. It doesn't matter what kind of goals the goalie lets in, as long as his team scores more. WHY? WHY? always about the goalies? Where's the bitchin that no one is scoring again? Why not where the hell is the PP? Why isn't there the heart to play hard when you're down? are we not one of the best in scoring? Why is it more important to look around for Tootoo then it is to get in play hard and get the puck out of or zone? Look all you want there more then the goalie.

[dallas27 7]

Pretty simple. It doesn't matter what kind of goals the goalie lets in, as long as his team scores more. WHY? WHY? always about the goalies? Where's the bitchin that no one is scoring again? Why not where the hell is the PP? Why isn't there the heart to play hard when you're down? are we not one of the best in scoring? Why is it more important to look around for Tootoo then it is to get in play hard and get the puck out of or zone? Look all you want there more then the goalie.

Because during the course of the playoffs you expect your goalie, especially one like Hasek, to steal you a couple games.

[puckloo39 5,686]

Pretty simple. It doesn't matter what kind of goals the goalie lets in, as long as his team scores more. WHY? WHY? always about the goalies? Where's the bitchin that no one is scoring again? Why not where the hell is the PP? Why isn't there the heart to play hard when you're down? are we not one of the best in scoring? Why is it more important to look around for Tootoo then it is to get in play hard and get the puck out of or zone? Look all you want there more then the goalie.

Not around here, it's always about the goalie. The fact that the team played like my local CHL team hasn't really been addressed. I guess they are trying to keep mum and not dwell on the defensive lapses and lack of offense, so the players don't get distracted. Hence, the focus and goathorns on Hasek.

They will correct their non-participation in these games, starting tonight. Better late than never.

[Stevie4Pres 0]

I've been playing goal for 14 years now (since I was 8 I'm now 22) so I will let you know what I think has been wrong with Dom.

1. Lack of confidence - Going into a hockey game as a goaltender without any confidence is about as scary as it can get in any sport. First off, the lights are on you, you know you're going to be analyzed for playing either great or poorly. You begin thinking bout how you are going to make the saves and this is a problem because goalies (and atheletes in general) play their best when they aren't thinking about the game perse, rather just playing in the zone.

2. Positioning - Dom has been playing WAY too deep in his net, and I mean WAY too deep. If he is only 165 lbs that's no excuse. All that means is that you need to play further out. I'm only 5'7" (150ish giver er take depending how many beers I suck down!) and I play on the top of blue when guys are in the hash marks. I need to do this to cut down the angle or I get beat on shots. However, a lot of the confidence factor plays into this because as a goalie is more confident you will see him coming out and being more agressive. So 1 & 2 sort of tie into one another.

3. Age and groins! - Dom is gettting old, and he's become some-what of a band-aid. Nagging groin injuries are particularily bad for goalies because of the lateral movement involved. THUS, I think this plays into why he's possibly playing so deep. That way if a shot does go from right to left (or vice versa) dom is still in the middle of the net giving himself a better chance to stop the biscuit, avoiding being caught out of position up high or on the other side of the ice completely. It could be that he's lost mobility from side to side and thus has to play deeper in his net to compensate.

4. Mind Games - Goalies are weird. I know! We skilled tradesmen can often get into psychological warfare with ourselves when things aren't going our way. In Ray Emery's case, he took it out on his teammates! None the less, you begin to question your own abilities and talent and that's a big time UH OH! Dom seemed to be fighting the puck and himself more than anything.

Overall, Dom said it himself: "The last 2 games are the worst I've played in my career." (or something like that.) When a tendy says that and stops blaming bounces and what not, you know they're mentally beat and everyone knows goaltending is about 70% and 30% physical. (That's what they used to tell me in Goalie camps anyways.)

DISCLAIMER: This isn't bashing Dom (as angry as I am with him!) You asked for a goalie's perspective so there mine is. Hope that helps.

Thanks... That is the perspective I was looking for.

BTW... This thread was not about bashing Dom or placing blame for games 3 and 4 squarely on goaltending. I agree there are other issues, i just wanted to hear some objective reasoning as to how a goalie could falter the way Dom has.

[puckloo39 5,686]

Thanks... That is the perspective I was looking for.

BTW... This thread was not about bashing Dom or placing blame for games 3 and 4 squarely on goaltending. I agree there are other issues, i just wanted to hear some objective reasoning as to how a goalie could falter the way Dom has.

Any mention of Dom right now (well, any time, pretty much) is open season for the bashers. Not your fault.

I will say this for Dom. He doesn't know how to lose "just a little bit." He either wins, or loses spectacularly. No middle ground for the Dom.