Should Sammy Sit for Maltby?

[Opie 308]

I would sit Sammy for Abdelkader or even Downey... no need for Sammy - we can even play without him... We are better 4 on 5 without Sammy than 5 on 5 with Sammy...

Sure let Downey play for him, then what do you do with the 10 minutes left over that Downey can't play??

You can't just throw some one in the line up because they are a winger. That is the whole point to the time Sammy got in the Reg season, you can't put Downey in his place because Downey plays 6 minutes a game at most and scored precisely 1 Point all season.

Show me some proof that the Wings were better short handed than with Sammy playing 5v5!

You are aware of what proof is right, something to back up your statement. Based on your statement that would mean that with Sammy on the ice it is the equivalent of the wings playing 5-3, so his +/- must be horrible right, or that there is no way he could be top 5 in assists or top 7 in scoring!!!

BTW when did you start working for the wings. As you posted WE you must be a part of the team or org, especially considering you (you said we) can play better 4-5, that must make you a PK specialist. Draper, Mule?????

Way to show your Hockey intelligence with that post!!

Edited April 21, 2008 by Opie

[jvxp 0]

The way Helm looked today, I can't believe this kid didn't play more this season. To me, there's no way in hell that he sits when Maltby returns. He was maybe our best player today.

So to answer my own question, I think Sammy should sit for Maltby. The only player who's looked more useless offensively than Sammy is Cleary, and he works too hard out there to be benched. Also, Drake and McCarty have both brought a physical edge, and Hudler has been stellar to everyone's surprise.

So that leaves Sammy out of the lineup in my mind for when Malts comes back. Do you guys agree?

I agree. Maybe sitting Sammy will light a fire under him. Also you can't take Helm out, I agree he was probably our best player.

[Copenhagen848 58]

Opie, Sammy's stats for the season are pathetic for the amount of ice time he had....not to mention the number of lobs, I mean shots he took.

Take any player that had less points in the regular season than Sammy...then give them the ice time and PP time that Babcock gave him and I guarantee they come out ahead of that uncoordinated waste of a roster spot.

[shannyfan1414 0]

Sammy should sit for anyone else on the roster. i don't see him doing anything at all on the ice. He shots to much but never seems to score or even get great opportunities out of any of the shots.

Sit him!!

[Opie 308]

Opie, Sammy's stats for the season are pathetic for the amount of ice time he had....not to mention the number of lobs, I mean shots he took.

Take any player that had less points in the regular season than Sammy...then give them the ice time and PP time that Babcock gave him and I guarantee they come out ahead of that uncoordinated waste of a roster spot.

Including Homer, whom he had more points then, or Flip who he had more points then?

There are my two, now how about you back your statement up with something more than your OPINION!!!!

[Opie 308]

Sammy should sit for anyone else on the roster. i don't see him doing anything at all on the ice. He shots to much but never seems to score or even get great opportunities out of any of the shots.

Sit him!!

I agree in the post season, there are others who are doing the job and filling the role that he did in the season.

He has looked bad these past 2+ games, real bad.

[Copenhagen848 58]

Including Homer, whom he had more points then, or Flip who he had more points then?

There are my two, now how about you back your statement up with something more than your OPINION!!!!

Ok, here are some regular season states for the guys you mentioned:

Homer: Games played - 59, Points - 40, Shot % 14.6

Flip: Games played - 79, Points - 36, Shot % 15.6

Sammy: Games Played - 73, Points - 40, Shot % 4.4

-Homer played 14 less games, yet has just as many points (not less as you said) and a much better shot %.

-Flip played 6 more games than him, scored 4 less points, but has a much better shot % and didn't see the ice time Sammy did as he wasn't on the PP or 2nd scoring line like Sammy was most of the time.

Ok, now I backed up my statement instead of giving my "OPINION".

Check them out for yourself:

http://redwings.nhl.com/team/app?gameType=...mp;service=page

[Opie 308]

Opie, Sammy's stats for the season are pathetic for the amount of ice time he had....not to mention the number of lobs, I mean shots he took.

Take any player that had less points in the regular season than Sammy...then give them the ice time and PP time that Babcock gave him and I guarantee they come out ahead of that uncoordinated waste of a roster spot.

Ok, here are some regular season states for the guys you mentioned:

Homer: Games played - 59, Points - 40, Shot % 14.6

Flip: Games played - 79, Points - 36, Shot % 15.6

Sammy: Games Played - 73, Points - 40, Shot % 4.4

-Homer played 14 less games, yet has just as many points (not less as you said) and a much better shot %.

-Flip played 6 more games than him, scored 4 less points, but has a much better shot % and didn't see the ice time Sammy did as he wasn't on the PP or 2nd scoring line like Sammy was most of the time.

Ok, now I backed up my statement instead of giving my "OPINION".

Check them out for yourself:

http://redwings.nhl.com/team/app?gameType=...mp;service=page

You brought up comparing minutes not games played, I was using your criteria not mine!!! (stats can be made to say anything you want if you just take them for face value).

BTW sh% is the most useless stat, IMO, are you trying to tell me that the following players are better than Dats because they have better SH%

In order of SH% for the team

Hartigan

Flip

Homer

Franzen

Z

Dats

Guess what those two were both on one of the top two lines!!!!!!!! (my bad I set you up for that)

Whom would you say could have taken Sammy's spot that was on one of the the bottom 2 lines?

You still haven't showed me who would have replaced him, Flip was his center when he was on the second line, so therefore he is eliminated from the conversation, Homer was on the first line most of the time which would have meant to put him on the second line Sammy is on the first line.

Cleary, as I have said before, would have been a bad move because that would have broken up the best defensive line.

Maltby can't hold Sammy's jock when it comes to offense.

Downey, Please.

Mule, completely unproven until after the All star break.

Huds, was on the 2nd line with him before going to the 4th.

Hartigan?

Kopecky?

Drake?

Who takes his place?

Oh and btw before you make up your mind remember the coach, who happened to win 50 + for the 3rd straight season, wanted a right handed shot, this team has all of 5 right handers including D-men.

I am not saying that the guy is an all world top 6 player, I am saying he was a decent 6th forward who obviously got the job done, because the team was #1 in the league.

Before you think I am a "Sammy Slappy" or whatever you want to call it, you should know that I already stated he shouldn't be playing now, and that with the development of Mule and Cleary he becomes and expendable part next year.

I am not saying Sammy is a main part of the engine that drives this team, but he is a cog, and with out that cog (despite all of the future predicting you want to do) none of us know what would have happened. I have to assume (dangerous) that Babs and Holland would have done what they needed to do to fix that hole.

[Copenhagen848 58]

Well, lets just agree that nothing you can say will convince me that Sammy is a good player or a necessary "cog" to this Detroit team, and there's obviously nothing that I can say to prove this because they are "useless stats" and I can "make them say anything I want". I backed up my statement with stats and obviously they mean nothing to you so we'll just leave it at that.

[Opie 308]

No, you backed up your opinion with stats, however the two players you backed it up with are already in the top 6!!!!

You are correct, Flip and Homer are much better than Sammy, I will agree with you on that all day and all night!!!

But what evidence do you have that suggests with another wing forward in his place the team could have done better?

What forward that was on the roster or even invited to training camp could have stepped in and played a top 6 role?

Notice that as soon as Mule started to show he had the ability to step in, Sammy went to the third line.

The stats you used also show that Hartigan deserved top line minutes over Dats and Z, so I am not so sure the stats you used were valid, IMO.

But if you look closely at my posts I admit that what I say about Sammy is IMO (in my opinion) were as you state it like it is a fact that anyone could have taken his spot, yet the two you backed up (again I set you up for it) are top 6 players already.

[Copenhagen848 58]

All I said is that had another player been given the ice time in place of Sammy, they would have done better. You are the one who brought up Flip and Homer...not me. Now you're throwing in Hartigan and Datsuyk, etc. Of course I don't have evidence that another forward would have better numbers, IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. How can I have evidence of something that didn't happen? All I said is that IF IT DID HAPPEN, they would have done better job.

I threw some stats out there comparing Homer, Flip, and Sammy after you brought them into the discussion. You simply dismissed them as nothing more than meaningless stats and now you're going on about Franzen, Z, Dats, etc.

This is the end of my discussion with you....

[Opie 308]

Because I won!!!!

J/K

You said given minutes anyone could fill his role, I said I knew of two people who couldn't, you rightly said they could, but what I walked you into (sort of like chess) is that both of those players were on the top 2 lines already and couldn't replace him.

Had you said,

way to go asshat, those players are on the top 2 lines already, and player x could have done it, fine. I look like the asshat (which I am).

But you talk like you know a player that could do better, I simply asked you who?

I gave you two players he had better (well one was the same) numbers than. I am not sure how you proved that any wing with less ice time not currently in the top 6 could take his place.

That is my point, unfortunately Sammy was the best option, next year and even in the playoffs I think Mule is the better option. However, during the season IMO that couldn't be said. I would have loved to have Hossa, Kovie, Ao, Crosby, any number of guys in the league playing over Sammy, however they weren't an option for the wings.

I will take Abdelkader and Helm over Sammy, now. With Mule stepping up I am all for Sammy's minutes going down or him as a black ace, and giving a youngster ice time on the fourth line.

I brought up Z and D because you were using SH% as your stat to base who should be on the line not Sammy, but that stat (seeing as it can't be used in a vacuum) also means that Hartigan would be better/more deserved than D, it was to show that you argument was flawed. I wasn't comparing D and Z to Sammy.

See in a discussion there is this little thing called point counter point, you bring up something you think to be true and I point out why I think it to be false, it is how it works.

Either way, enjoy the playoffs, I will be rooting for the team to succeed, you root for the team minus the players you don't like, me nor anyone else can stop you, but don't expect to post your opinion with out someone having a different one!

[LeftWinger 5,153]

...Sammy out, who cares if Helm had ONE GOOD GAME, this is the playoffs, you ride who's hot, I am the furthest thing from a Hudler fan, but he's scoring and that is what they need, ride Hudler, ride Helm. Sammy has done naught. When Maltby comes back, no doubt Sammy should sit. Just like Lilja is sitting now. If it comes down to getting pushed around in the next round, then stick Sammy and Lija back in... If the Wings draw Colorado, it will be a fast paced series, they will need Helm and Lebda in there. Ride who's hot...

[Reilly 24]

Sammy needs to be benched for a few games.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

With the development of Franzen as a top 6 threat, Sammy's role goes to nearly zilch.

He shouldn't be on the PP and the last two games has looked, bad!!!

You can blame the ice all you want for yesterday's miscues, but what about game 5?

With the development of youth Sammy is trade able in the offseason, and his role now has become something outside of his skill set.

His place on the third line could be filled with anyone of the following:

Maltby: I dogged on this guy all year, however you cannot replace his type of experience in the post season.

Huds: Hudler has shown he deserves the minutes over Sammy, IMO all year long.

Abdelkader: Maybe not in the post season, but if the guy can keep the puck on his stick and make a decision in less than the three seconds it is currently taking Sammy, give him the shot.

I have defended Sammy all year because he was the guy that filled the gap that guys like Huds and Mule have shown they can take over now. His role has been eliminated, just tell him the Wings are downsizing, hey it worked for one of the companies I worked for why not an NHL team!

I never thought I'd see the day, but it's great to see. Welcome back to the real world Opie!

[plymouthsam 0]

YES YES YES! Samuelson drives me nuts! I really don't understand why Babcock keps using him at the point. I know he has a good shot, but he makes mistakes and turns the puck over way too much. I definately think he is the odd man out when Maltby is able to return. By the way, how impressive was the Helm, McCarty, Hudler line? I was shocked at all of the chances they created.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Opie, Sammy's stats aren't that impressive considering how often he plays, the players he plays with, and the amount of shots he takes on net. His goal scoring this season was pitiful compared to his shots taken. The stats you're looking at are greatly skewed in that regard. Anyone could have scored more goals than him with that amount of shots.

Yeah, he didn't prevent us from winning this season, but it's not like he did much to help. There's no reason waiting for him to cost us a game with a dumb turnover before we all agree that he should be benched.

[Saran 1]

With Sammy in

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Holmstrom

Sammy - Flip - Franzen

Cleary - Draper - Maltby

Drake - Helm - Hudler

Without Sammy

Z - Dats - Homer

Cleary - Flip - Franzen

Drake/McCarty - Draper - Maltby

Drake/McCarty - Helm - Hudler

Both lines 3 and 4 would be rotated and different in the game as Babcock often did. I would like to see Hudler on one of the higher lines but we all know that won't happen and he seems to do well with Helm and McCarty or Drake.

[DatsyukRules 0]

Rotate Maltby and Sammy, whoever's hotter, they are both about the same IMO.

[wingnut40 176]

I didn't want to read 4 pages of everybody saying how bad Sammy sucks so I just figured I'd throw my two cents in. I think Sammy has played way better than Fil, even though he has a goal. Fil, as much as I love him, has been standing still way too many times, not jumping on loose pucks, and missing on great opportunities. Sammy made a great drop pass to Fil who was like 2 feet away and Fil just stood there and let a predator get it. That's just one of many times.

I'd sit Fil for Malts. But I know it won't happen.

[barabbas16 499]

Well, lets just agree that nothing you can say will convince me that Sammy is a good player or a necessary "cog" to this Detroit team, and there's obviously nothing that I can say to prove this because they are "useless stats" and I can "make them say anything I want". I backed up my statement with stats and obviously they mean nothing to you so we'll just leave it at that.

Everyone should just stop arguing with this guy. He is obviously set on what he thinks.

If we had won 15 straight in the playoffs, this guy would still be b!tching about Samuelsson

I don't even think he cares if we win. I'm pretty sure he would be happier if we got eliminated and Samuelsson got benched than if we won the cup and he played.

[Opie 308]

Opie, Sammy's stats aren't that impressive considering how often he plays, the players he plays with, and the amount of shots he takes on net. His goal scoring this season was pitiful compared to his shots taken. The stats you're looking at are greatly skewed in that regard. Anyone could have scored more goals than him with that amount of shots.

Yeah, he didn't prevent us from winning this season, but it's not like he did much to help. There's no reason waiting for him to cost us a game with a dumb turnover before we all agree that he should be benched.

That is my point his stats are impressive, but they are not horrible, they are average stats for a #6 forward.

He hasn't done much to help? Really?

Can you prove that, because for everytime Babs put ZDH together and the wings won, I would say Sammy's ability to play the #6 forward WHEN NO ONE ELSE COULD helped the team win.

Not everything a player does to help the team win shows up in the stat sheet.

Again don't confuse my defending him playing and Babs giving him the minutes for me being a huge Sammy fan, however to say he hasn't done much to help the team is bunk. IMO

If you don't think he did much to help, fine your opinion, but state it as such, not that you know he didn't help, or that he should be traded for a bag of pucks.

But again I say, enjoy the playoffs as will I, root for the team minus whatever player you want, I will root for the team, including Holland, Babs, Nill, The trainers, Al, whomever. But don't post your opinion and expect no one to disagree with you.

Edited April 22, 2008 by Opie

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

That is my point his stats are impressive, but they are not horrible, they are average stats for a #6 forward.

He hasn't done much to help? Really?

Can you prove that, because for everytime Babs put ZDH together and the wings won, I would say Sammy's ability to play the #6 forward WHEN NO ONE ELSE COULD helped the team win.

Not everything a player does to help the team win shows up in the stat sheet.

Again don't confuse my defending him playing and Babs giving him the minutes for me being a huge Sammy fan, however to say he hasn't done much to help the team is bunk. IMO

If you don't think he did much to help, fine your opinion, but state it as such, not that you know he didn't help, or that he should be traded for a bag of pucks.

But again I say, enjoy the playoffs as will I, root for the team minus whatever player you want, I will root for the team, including Holland, Babs, Nill, The trainers, Al, whomever. But don't post your opinion and expect no one to disagree with you.

My opinion?

I'm not in the minority on this, you are. Everyone has already posted the reasons for why he stinks, namely the turnovers and the lack of physical effort. That might now show up on the stat sheet, but to me that is just as important as how many points he scored, which as I said earlier, is skewed based on how many shots he took.

I'm just saying that at this point he needs to be benched because he's not one of the 12 most useful forwards on the team as far as what roles the team needs filled. He was no more consistent a secondary scorer than anyone else on the team this season, but other guys brought something else to the table. In his case, he does nothing else, and at this point he isn't even scoring either.

Also, I do cheer for Sammy to play well, but that doesn't mean I'm happy with him being in the lineup or the foolish mistakes that he makes. I don't have to blindly worship every player on the team. There's only a few guys who get immunity from me.

[Opie 308]

My opinion?

I'm not in the minority on this, you are. Everyone has already posted the reasons for why he stinks, namely the turnovers and the lack of physical effort. That might now show up on the stat sheet, but to me that is just as important as how many points he scored, which as I said earlier, is skewed based on how many shots he took.

I'm just saying that at this point he needs to be benched because he's not one of the 12 most useful forwards on the team as far as what roles the team needs filled. He was no more consistent a secondary scorer than anyone else on the team this season, but other guys brought something else to the table. In his case, he does nothing else, and at this point he isn't even scoring either.

Also, I do cheer for Sammy to play well, but that doesn't mean I'm happy with him being in the lineup or the foolish mistakes that he makes. I don't have to blindly worship every player on the team. There's only a few guys who get immunity from me.

You have already seen that I agree with you 100% on the bolded part, I even think they trade him for a late round pick or package him with a young D-man (Lebda, Quincey, Meech) for a young enforcer type center man in the offseason.

Physical effort is a preference you have, you don't like Huds for the same reason right, he gets pushed off of the puck, same with Flip. The difference you see is that Sammy is a bigger and therefore should be a more physical presence, well not every one plays that style. Kasper was a small d-man who crushed people, Jagr is a beast and hits no one and as soon as someone touches him he ******* and moans. NOW before you think I am stupid enough to compare Jagr and Sammy, I was just making a point that some bigger bodies are not hitters and some smaller bodies are.

I am not saying blindly root for the guys, but you and others seem to be rooting against him, you never acknowledge if he does something well, hell the guy scored 40 points and yet some how he gets trashed and people want AARON DOWNEY playing over him. Sorry if I group you in with them, but some times it is hard to pick the few out of the majority.

And yes I am in the minority of the people here that support Babs decision to play him in the regular season, but look at Wikipedia, the internet is not the first place I go for information that I want to be 100% guaranteed.

The Internet making stupid easy since 1969!!!

But you and I disagree on the Sammy issue, we have discussed this many, many times, but if another poster posts that Sammy sucks with out saying why he thinks that, I will be the first to ask for reasons, because I disagree.

Then I will do like I did with you discuss it out, and if the person can't deal with the way I discuss issues, then they will think I am an *******, and nothing personal but the last think in the world I could care about is what a bunch of people on the internet think of me!