Ken Holland Was SMART!

[omnipotent_hudler 0]

True and as it's turned out, everything is fine.

Plus, you're just happy that Huds wasn't traded.

tbh I won't be surprised if he's gone in 2-3 years. I like the guy's personality, but I'm not going to cry if he leaves. We have some serious talent coming up in the prospect pool and its going to make this team a lot better

[Dabura 12,232]

Ignore list updated!

[imisssergei 0]

Smart? I'm not sold on that. If Franzen doesn't take his game up a few levels, there is a good chance the Wings don't make it to the Finals, maybe not out of the first round.

No one could have predicted the way Franzen stepped it up, and both Flip and Rex weren't putting up solid second line scoring numbers.

Holland had $5m, and lots of defensive prospects to work with. There were a lot of guys he could have made a move for. Guys like Prospal, Hlavac, Fedorov (just an example I don't need to hear why it was smart not to get him) Richards, and Campbell all would have boosted the secondary scoring quite a bit. I think Hossa was too much of a risk given what the Pens ultimately had to give to get him, the Wings could not have matched that offer.

Even if the Wings win the Cup this year, I'll still be disappointed that Stuart was the only player brought in. I still don't think Rex is going to be much of a scorer in this league, and it would be nice to have a 30 goal scorer in that spot.

[Nightfall 871]

The implication being that I'm not a "true hockey fan"? Whether that's what you were implying or not, let me just say this: I've played hockey at the highest level I could at my age, I've watched hockey my whole life, and I've had experience with the sport in a coaching position as well as a managerial one. So believe me when I say I understand the nuances and various intricacies of the game.

Saying, "Had we picked up Hossa, we might not have made the SCF!" is not much of an argument. It's completely plausible that giving up Flip and a couple of prospects would have also allowed us to get this far, perhaps even more convincingly (i.e., no struggles against the Preds and the Stars).

But we're dealing in "What if..."s, which I don't really like to do.

No, I wasn't implying that. Merely stating for those of us who have not played hockey before or maybe a new fan of the game. Not everyone on this board knows the game inside out and backwards. That being said, I have played for years myself, and still play today. Not as high in level I am sure, but still at least I am not an armchair fan.

I wasn't trying to start an argument when I asked, "If we picked Hossa up, would we be playing in the finals?". Just a question to pose to the people out there that say that we should have snagged him and denounced Kenny as a moron for not doing it. As you said though, with all the nuances and intracacies of the game, who knows how we would have done. Maybe we would have went through the playoffs only losing 2 games instead of 4. Maybe we would have been beat by Dallas in the conference finals. The people who can look at the picture like that and make the call to get a player makes millions more than I make thats for sure.

[Opie 308]

Smart? I'm not sold on that. If Franzen doesn't take his game up a few levels, there is a good chance the Wings don't make it to the Finals, maybe not out of the first round.

No one could have predicted the way Franzen stepped it up, and both Flip and Rex weren't putting up solid second line scoring numbers.

Holland had $5m, and lots of defensive prospects to work with. There were a lot of guys he could have made a move for. Guys like Prospal, Hlavac, Fedorov (just an example I don't need to hear why it was smart not to get him) Richards, and Campbell all would have boosted the secondary scoring quite a bit. I think Hossa was too much of a risk given what the Pens ultimately had to give to get him, the Wings could not have matched that offer.

Even if the Wings win the Cup this year, I'll still be disappointed that Stuart was the only player brought in. I still don't think Rex is going to be much of a scorer in this league, and it would be nice to have a 30 goal scorer in that spot.

Yet another person who was calling Holland all kinds of names during the deadline, who doesn't think he is smart.

Yeah, because I mean it is not like winning the cup has anything to do with what Holland did in the offseason or the deadline!

There is standing behind your opinion and then there is not being able to admit you were wrong!

[imisssergei 0]

Yet another person who was calling Holland all kinds of names during the deadline, who doesn't think he is smart.

Yeah, because I mean it is not like winning the cup has anything to do with what Holland did in the offseason or the deadline!

There is standing behind your opinion and then there is not being able to admit you were wrong!

Really? Refresh my memory, what were all the names I was calling Holland?

Looking back at the deadline, and the state of the team then, I think it was a bad move not to bring in scoring help. Again, no one could have predicted Franzen's surge. Without that, the Wings aren't the same team going into the playoffs, and definitely not the same in the playoffs.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

I still don't agree. Being 4-5 million under the cap when you're trying for a cup is stupid. Are you telling me that a rental player wouldn't have filled in nicely for the two weeks that Franzen was injured? Instead, McCarty was in and we all know what he's done. You don't get extra points for being under the cap.

For example, Marty Lapointe was traded for a fourth round draft pick (I think). He sure would have been handy the past two weeks.

Marty Lapointe isn't better than anyone dressing for the Red Wings right now.

Who would you like to see here, that would have helped the team out more, even considering they are two wins away from a championship?

Holland knows what he is doing. Stuart was the perfect addition. Cue LeftWinger now to tell us how trading for Fedorov would have made Detroit 14-0 in the playoffs so far.

Edited May 27, 2008 by GoWings1905

[Turkey 0]

I'm not sure why a rental like Lapointe would have been better than someone like Mac. Marty is nothing like what he used to be and neither is Mac. Both would basically perform the same job. Mac was basically free, Mary would have cost a pick. Mac was doing his job, had good chemistry w/ Helm and Huds, and had a goal and an assist. Until this last game or two he was right there with guys like Draper, Drake, Cleary, Lilja, Lebda, or Stuart when it comes to scoring contribution. He's there to drive the net, make room, and be defensively responsible. He's done that and that's a good job as far as I'm concerned.

We have a lot of guys on this team who aren't really there to score a lot. Mac is one of them. What would someone like Lapointe have done?

[Turkey 0]

Calling Marty, "Mary" was a typo but I'm leaving it because it's funny.

[sdogg1m 3]

I think he is smart but it maybe that he and Babcock decided that they had no further needs to fill after the signing of Stuart.

However, you generally do not want to have 5 million in cap room after the trading deadline as it becomes wasted cash. 5 million in unused money will not score goals, provide good defense, or hard checks at the blue line.

[Opie 308]

Really? Refresh my memory, what were all the names I was calling Holland?

Looking back at the deadline, and the state of the team then, I think it was a bad move not to bring in scoring help. Again, no one could have predicted Franzen's surge. Without that, the Wings aren't the same team going into the playoffs, and definitely not the same in the playoffs.

I APOLOGIZE!!!

After looking back through the threads it was not you calling Holland names, I confused your username with another!!

Again I apologize

I think he is smart but it maybe that he and Babcock decided that they had no further needs to fill after the signing of Stuart.

However, you generally do not want to have 5 million in cap room after the trading deadline as it becomes wasted cash. 5 million in unused money will not score goals, provide good defense, or hard checks at the blue line.

So if he had spent that 5 mil and loses the cup does that make him smart?

[GoWings1905 2,694]

I think he is smart but it maybe that he and Babcock decided that they had no further needs to fill after the signing of Stuart.

However, you generally do not want to have 5 million in cap room after the trading deadline as it becomes wasted cash. 5 million in unused money will not score goals, provide good defense, or hard checks at the blue line.

Why spend the five million on something the Red Wings clearly don't need right now? They score goals, play flawless defense, and are way more physical than people give them credit for. I doubt the Ilitch family sees it as "wasted cash."

They are two wins from a championship. What exactly are the Red Wings missing that five million dollars at the deadline could have been spent on? I don't see any reason to be complaining about cap room when the one need at the deadline (a top four defenseman) was addressed.

Edited May 27, 2008 by GoWings1905

[Datsyerberger 279]

It's like these same four people don't realize that the 5 mil not spent isn't money that's magically disappearing into some great void, but money that's being saved for the stockholders and can go towards the new arena, new paint in the visitor's locker room, a new toilet paper brand, whatever.

Nevermind the fact that you don't just have to take a hit in your cap to bring in, but trade stuff away, too.

Hmm..

I spend 5 extra mil, I trade away 2 draft picks and a potentially dangerous prospect. I win the cup.

I save the 5 mil, I keep the picks and the prospect. I win the cup.

Which is better for the team and stockholders?

[Reilly 24]

However, you generally do not want to have 5 million in cap room after the trading deadline as it becomes wasted cash. 5 million in unused money will not score goals, provide good defense, or hard checks at the blue line.

Remember also the cost of getting a player at the deadline. The Wings aren't going to give away young players for rentals anymore. It's not even a question about having salary room, it's about wanting to part with valuable assets.

Signing players just because you have cap space doesn't seem like something a team with a vision would do. They know what players they have, they know what players they need. Once Zetterberg is re-signed and the core of this team is in place, I suspect Holland will be willing to roll the dice a bit more. Having said that, this team only made once acquisition in 2002 (Jiri Slegr) and they won the cup. In general, you go back through history and teams that won the cup really didn't add much at the deadline.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

Remember also the cost of getting a player at the deadline. The Wings aren't going to give away young players for rentals anymore. It's not even a question about having salary room, it's about wanting to part with valuable assets.

Signing players just because you have cap space doesn't seem like something a team with a vision would do. They know what players they have, they know what players they need. Once Zetterberg is re-signed and the core of this team is in place, I suspect Holland will be willing to roll the dice a bit more. Having said that, this team only made once acquisition in 2002 (Jiri Slegr) and they won the cup. In general, you go back through history and teams that won the cup really didn't add much at the deadline.

Exactly. A subtle addition like Brad May for Anaheim last year, or Stuart with the Red Wings this season is sometimes better than any blockbuster type deal. It's all about addressing needs without taking on tons of salary, or risking your future for a rental.

I'm still dying to hear what these few people would have liked the five million in cap room to be spent on. Holland obviously did quite well, as is usually the case.

[Opie 308]

Exactly. A subtle addition like Brad May for Anaheim last year, or Stuart with the Red Wings this season is sometimes better than any blockbuster type deal. It's all about addressing needs without taking on tons of salary, or risking your future for a rental.

I'm still dying to hear what these few people would have liked the five million in cap room to be spent on. Holland obviously did quite well, as is usually the case.

Don't hold your breath.

[lets go pavel 2]

my 2 cents ... stanley cups are not won or lost at the deadline, and deadline moves can't be judged solely by the outcome of the playoffs, or else you automatically have 1 good gm and 15 bad ones ... the gm has to look at options available, weigh immediate and long-term concerns, and make decisions based on all of this ... it is pure speculation for us to guess at what kenny could have or should have done, and it is pure speculation for us to guess what would have happened had he done this or that ... in other words, a waste of time

the folks who felt we could have improved the team more at the deadline had and have every right to still feel that way, the fact that we are where we are doesn't mean we couldn't have been improved ... i don't think they need to apologize or eat crow for that ...

the folks i'd like to hear from are the ones who were completely doubting our roster even though we were in 1st place, forecasting doom and gloom and another 1st round exit, saying we'll never go anywhere with the goaltending we had, etc etc ... but i'm guessing they're not around anymore ...

Edited May 27, 2008 by lets go pavel

[Glubki 17]

I think he is smart but it maybe that he and Babcock decided that they had no further needs to fill after the signing of Stuart.

However, you generally do not want to have 5 million in cap room after the trading deadline as it becomes wasted cash. 5 million in unused money will not score goals, provide good defense, or hard checks at the blue line.

The entire 4.3 million left over from this year's salary cap is not going to be wasted - in fact not spending the money was a brilliant move in hindsight because all of this years bonus money (Hasek, McCarty, Chelios, Etc..) can be applied against that extra cap space without having to carry any over towards next year.

This means the Wings will have a clean slate and with the additional projected increase in next year's cap they will have more wiggle room than theyv'e had in the past 3-4 years.

I didn't have time to read all 5 pages so I apologize if this has already been mentioned...

[Bluedevils_13 0]

hahahaha did some one seriously suggest MARTIN LAPOINTE. I'll take Evan McGrath in over Lapointe.

And seriously Filppula for Hosse would never have happened. Given the deal that happened it would have been

Filppulla

Helm

Kindl

1st round pick

[sdogg1m 3]

Why spend the five million on something the Red Wings clearly don't need right now? They score goals, play flawless defense, and are way more physical than people give them credit for. I doubt the Ilitch family sees it as "wasted cash."

They are two wins from a championship. What exactly are the Red Wings missing that five million dollars at the deadline could have been spent on? I don't see any reason to be complaining about cap room when the one need at the deadline (a top four defenseman) was addressed.

You will notice that I used the word, "generally." If Mike Babcock and Ken Holland sat down and determined that their was no need other than the signing of Brad Stuart then I am fine with that. However, the reason that we are not second guessing Holland now is BECAUSE the Red Wings are in the finals. If the Red Wings had not made the finals then they would have had much more than 5 million dollars IN LOST revenue.

I am not trying to say Ken Holland was wrong or that I am not happy with the current state of the team just wanted to point out that "generally" five million dollars unused is a waste.

Edited May 27, 2008 by sdogg1m

[chrisdetroit 189]

Marty Lapoint?!?!?!?!

You lose credibility this guy hasn't done s*** since he left Detroit. Why would the wings need another Maltby?

Man up, suck it up, whatever you want.

We can what if and Hypothesize about what Holland could have, should have, would have done, however what is not hypothetical and what is actually provable is that the moves Holland did make or didn't make has this team in the Stanley cup final with a 2-0 series lead and they haven't given up a goal and scored 7.

How on earth does Marty Lapointe change that for the good? I don't want you hypothetical situations either, give me some stats or facts from Lapointe's last 3 or 4 years in the playoffs.

Plus were you with Holland and Co all day on the trade deadline? Do you know for a fact what Holland offered for what players, or do you know what the other teams told Holland they wanted in return for their players? Do you also think that maybe just maybe teams don't want to trade within the division? OR that no one wants to help the best team in the league who also happens to be the most successful team in the NHL the past 12 years?

Do you get extra points for winning 2 cups as a GM? Or does he have to wait for the third one.

Listen we all want to defend our own opinions, we always want to be right, but some times you have to admit your opinion was wrong. I don't know what you were saying during the trade deadline, but if you were doubting him or slandering him, like most posters on here (that were dogging Holland) you will probably not eat crow, because you have your little 4-5 mil cap space argument.

BIG FRIGGIN' DEAL!! It should be more impressive that he did it with cap space left over!

The first knock on Holland was that Det buys their teams, now the team is under the cap well on its way to another cup (his 3rd as GM 4th total) and if Holland had spent more money...

I don't even know how to end that statement, he is on the verge of winning the cup, and it turns out the one move he did make as sure up this D, and made what was one of the best D is the league to the best in the league.

All of you that were waiting for the wings to bomb out in the first round because of what Holland did need to admit you were wrong!

Pull a Pettite not a Clemens!!

Well said. Some people will just never admit when they are wrong. Kenny has constructed a team that is about to win the cup and more importantly, he is going to be able to keep the team together next year to make another run at it. Compare this to the Pens who traded away their future for Hossa who they cannot resign because of the cap. And they are not going to win the cup.

How can people not admit that they were wrong when it is so damn obvious?

[chrisdetroit 189]

You will notice that I used the word, "generally." If Mike Babcock and Ken Holland sat down and determined that their was no need other than the signing of Brad Stuart then I am fine with that. However, the reason that we are not second guessing Holland now is BECAUSE the Red Wings are in the finals. If the Red Wings had not made the finals then they would have had much more than 5 million dollars IN LOST revenue.

I am not trying to say Ken Holland was wrong or that I am not happy with the current state of the team just wanted to point out that "generally" five million dollars unused is a waste.

That is a really stupid argument. Your argument then is IF it had not worked out you would have been right. But you admit that it DID work out.

What the F kind of logic is that?

[GoWings1905 2,694]

You will notice that I used the word, "generally." If Mike Babcock and Ken Holland sat down and determined that their was no need other than the signing of Brad Stuart then I am fine with that. However, the reason that we are not second guessing Holland now is BECAUSE the Red Wings are in the finals. If the Red Wings had not made the finals then they would have had much more than 5 million dollars IN LOST revenue.

I am not trying to say Ken Holland was wrong or that I am not happy with the current state of the team just wanted to point out that "generally" five million dollars unused is a waste.

Very flawed logic. You can use that "what if" scenario for anything. Of course people here would blame Holland if the Red Wings didn't advance this far, or if for some reason they fail to win it all. There are some people here STILL saying Holland didn't do enough, and the team is two wins away from a Stanley Cup. The coaching staff/management for the Red Wings is the best in hockey, hands down. Spending to the cap does not mean success. Ask the Ducks or Rangers how that worked out.

We all should be extremely proud to be fans of a world-class organization that is successful every single year. I'm fine with people not agreeing with every personnel move, but give credit where it's due. Holland and Babcock assembled a championship calibre team.

Edited May 27, 2008 by GoWings1905

[Frozen-Man 144]

I maintain that, had the Wings been able to acquire Hossa for Flip straight up (or less) and sign him to an extension that would have fit under the cap, it would have been a good deal. Even with Flip's crazy goal, i'd still make that deal.

I would agree with that but I just don't think it would have ever happened especially considering that the Pens gave up Erik Christensen, Colby Armstrong, thier 2007 1st round pick Angelo Esposito, and a 1st round draft pick for Hossa (and Pascal Dupuis). I just don't There is no way that we could have gotten Hossa for Flip (or less) it would have taken much much more. Furthermore, I don't think that we could resign him unless he agreed to almost no money especially with what we are soon going to have to pay Z and Franzen (I realize that at the time Franzen's stock was not as high). What with the big money already tied up in Dats, Lids, and Raffy I just don't think that there is any way that you can sign 2 more 6-7 million dollar players and then still have anthing for guys like Cleary and Franzen. It seems to me that if we had gotten Hossa for Flip (which I don't think there is any way that we could have accomplished) I think we probably also lose Franzen, Cleary, and Stuart (or at least 2 of the 3) to free agency because we have no money left over. I know that is all just speculation, Franzen might not have emerged had we gotten Hossa and would have signed a smaller contract (or whatever hypo you want) but I just don't see how that big of a piece fits into the cap that the Wings will have.

[sdogg1m 3]

Very flawed logic. You can use that "what if" scenario for anything. Of course people here would blame Holland if the Red Wings didn't advance this far, or if for some reason they fail to win it all. There are some people here STILL saying Holland didn't do enough, and the team is two wins away from a Stanley Cup. The coaching staff/management for the Red Wings is the best in hockey, hands down. Spending to the cap does not mean success. Ask the Ducks or Rangers how that worked out.

We all should be extremely proud to be fans of a world-class organization that is successful every single year. I'm fine with people not agreeing with every personnel move, but give credit where it's due. Holland and Babcock assembled a championship calibre team.

Actually, its not, the Red Wings have advanced far in the playoffs therefore Holland's gamble was a good one. However, you expect an investment to yield a return. No investment = 0% return!!!