East vs. West Mentality

[egroen 384]

One of the largest stories of the Stanley Cup finals over the past two years was the West's dominance of defense over the East's offense.

Two of the Wing's top 3 paid skaters were defencemen. Last year, the top two paid Duck's were defencemen.

How does Pittsburgh respond?

Going after Hossa, their top two paid players will be forwards next year. If they then keep Malkin... their 3 top paid will be forwards. Maybe even 4, if Staal improves.

[Probert 5 For Fighting 0]

Yeah, and Detroit would be doing the exact same thing if they were in Pitt's situation.

Detroit and Anaheim boast the 3 best defensemen in the league. It's a crazy small sample size. No other teams have that luxury. There is no East vs West mentality. It's a "wow, Detroit and Anaheim are really freaking good and have an unfair advantage on the backend" mentality.

But since we seem to be heading towards criticizing Pitt's defense, cut them some slack. Both Whitney and Letang(who we never got to see due to injury) are fantastic young defensemen whom they can build around in the coming years.

[omnipotent_hudler 0]

Yeah, and Detroit would be doing the exact same thing if they were in Pitt's situation.

Detroit and Anaheim boast the 3 best defensemen in the league. It's a crazy small sample size. No other teams have that luxury. There is no East vs West mentality. It's a "wow, Detroit and Anaheim are really freaking good and have an unfair advantage on the backend" mentality.

But since we seem to be heading towards criticizing Pitt's defense, cut them some slack. Both Whitney and Letang(who we never got to see due to injury) are fantastic young defensemen whom they can build around in the coming years.

I think the point is that if the cap eventually hits a ceiling(and even if it doesn't for not-so-rich teams), it is far better to devote your cap to defense than offense.

Pitt has some defensive prospects developing nicely, but the problem is that if they are as good as they think they will be they will demand top dollar in a league where good D are a luxury. They can't hope to sign top d-man if they have their cap eaten up by Crosby 8.7/yr; Malkin 8/yr, and Hossa 6.5-7/yr. And that isn't really counting Fleury who is going to demand top dollar in a couple of years.

[egroen 384]

Yeah, and Detroit would be doing the exact same thing if they were in Pitt's situation.

Hmmm.... since Holland appears to be focusing on Stuart, yet another high-priced defenceman, when he could be going after a bonafied 2nd line forward, I have trouble agreeing with you.

At the cost of signing Hossa and Malkin, Pittsburgh will be letting Malone, and most like Orpik go -- two of their best defensive players. They are looking at two lines of defencemen at the $1 million mark and below.

There may not be a plethora of elite defencemen out there, but there are plenty of good ones... and Pittsburgh is more interested in letting them go, than finding more.

Edited June 15, 2008 by egroen

[Doggy 130]

I think the point is that if the cap eventually hits a ceiling(and even if it doesn't for not-so-rich teams), it is far better to devote your cap to defense than offense.

Pitt has some defensive prospects developing nicely, but the problem is that if they are as good as they think they will be they will demand top dollar in a league where good D are a luxury. They can't hope to sign top d-man if they have their cap eaten up by Crosby 8.7/yr; Malkin 8/yr, and Hossa 6.5-7/yr. And that isn't really counting Fleury who is going to demand top dollar in a couple of years.

But what else is Shero supposed to do? Sign Lidstrom and Pronger?

His team still has the ability to be a Cup contender this coming season and he has to do all he can to capitalise on that. So why not sign the best players he can? Plus, their D is not that bad and they have an awesome goalie with some pretty good experience now.

[Probert 5 For Fighting 0]

I think the point is that if the cap eventually hits a ceiling(and even if it doesn't for not-so-rich teams), it is far better to devote your cap to defense than offense.

Pitt has some defensive prospects developing nicely, but the problem is that if they are as good as they think they will be they will demand top dollar in a league where good D are a luxury. They can't hope to sign top d-man if they have their cap eaten up by Crosby 8.7/yr; Malkin 8/yr, and Hossa 6.5-7/yr. And that isn't really counting Fleury who is going to demand top dollar in a couple of years.

The point was obvious. I'm just saying, there's only one Lidstrom, one Pronger, and one Neidermayer(let's pretend Rob went away for a while). Pittsburgh has a bunch of a ridiculously young and freakishly good forwards. What, they're just going to let them walk? It is better to devote your cap to defense rather than offense, but there are no better routes for Pittsburgh to take based on what's available. Crosby, Hossa, Malkin and maybe even Staal could be considered franchise players. How can they be faulted for re-signing all of them? Sign those guys, sign Fleury, Whitney and Letang are both a ways away from demanding top dollar, mix in the role guys, and play it out. Eventually, they'll trade one of those coveted assets they have, and hopefully they'll get the chance to bow out to Detroit again in the Finals.

[Probert 5 For Fighting 0]

Hmmm.... since Holland appears to be focusing on Stuart, yet another high-priced defenceman, when he could be going after a bonafied 2nd line forward, I have trouble agreeing with you.

What does that have to do with what the Redwings would do if they had Crosby, Malkin, Hossa and Staal all on the same team? Holland CAN sit back and focus in on Stuart with all of his key guys locked up. And please, what bonafide 2nd liner out there is going to produce more than Franzen or Flip right now? Those guys are fantastic bargains and Holland knows nobody else is worth it. Let someone else pay out the rear for 60 points from Malone.

At the cost of signing Hossa and Malkin, Pittsburgh will be letting Malone, and most like Orpik go -- two of their best defensive players. They are looking at two lines of defencemen at the $1 million mark and below.

There may not be a plethora of elite defencemen out there, but there are plenty of good ones... and Pittsburgh is more interested in letting them go, than finding more.

I'd rather have Hossa(who's basically a 3rd defensemen with his skill) and Malkin than Malone and Orpik. In fact, I'm pretty sure everybody on the face of the earth would rather have those two guys than Malone and Orpik. This is a decision any GM would make. Both Malone and Orpik expect to(and will be) severely overpaid. If you're going to pay someone, pay maybe the best damn player in the world(Malkin) and an all-world guy like Hossa. Who cares how much their defenders make? Gonchar, Whitney, Letang, are fine top pairing defensemen, and perhaps they'll sign a guy who will fill in like Stuart did for us. They're very young back there, hence how little their dmen are getting paid.

[egroen 384]

Maybe you're right... maybe the answer to the West is more offense.

I personally think $25 million for your top 3 forwards, and probably close to another $5 million for Staal ensures you become a two line team with half the team at an AHL level.

I personally hope they are able to sign all their top guys... easy pickings, in my opinion.

[egroen 384]

I'd rather have Hossa(who's basically a 3rd defensemen with his skill) and Malkin than Malone and Orpik.

Well, duh. $17 million in talent vs. $8 million -- but there is this thing called a "cap"

Edited June 15, 2008 by egroen

[YoungGuns1340 1]

To me, theyre trying to have their cake and eat it too. By that I mean, theyre trying to hoard offensive skill and still bank on filling out their roster to maximum depth potential.

If you ask me, Shero is letting his business instincts get in the way of things. Boasting a Crosby-Malkin 1-2 punch is simply sick. No one can argue that. For flashiness, excitement, and marketability, there is no better slogan than saying you have the best 1-2 hockey punch in the entire world. The fans love it, the league loves it, Shero and the entire Pens organization loves it. It gets them big money, fans in the seats. Its absolutely the ideal situation for a team that had severe financial issues in the past which still hover overhead.

I personally think their defense is a lot weaker than it seemed. Orpik, Gonchar, Scuderi, and Gill (post trade) all had either career years or one of their best performances to date in the playoffs. And I think thats going to come back and bite them in the butt. Especially with the way they are likely going to be cutting out responsible defensive players in Malone and Orpik only to make way for more offensive oriented guys.

I know Ill get hosed for this, but I dont think it would be a bad idea for Pittsburgh to look into trading Malkin. I know, I know. Its crazy to trade a 22 year old that can hit the 100+ point mark, but I think theyre in a rare position. They already have the NHLs golden boy who also happens to be arguably the best pure offensive player in the NHL.

I'll prep myself for the flames, but Pittsburgh would be smart to take up trading partners with Florida. Florida has some of the the most underrated players in the game.

To Florida: Malkin - an incredible young center whom theyd have the cap space to re-sign and a player they could create a huge marketing scheme around

To Pittsburgh: Jokinen - possibly the most underrated 1st line center in the game. Hes got size, is easily good for 35 goals and at least 80 points a year, and plays a gritty game. Hes locked up for two more years at a reasonable 5.25 million and when hes a UFA at age 32, pittsburgh could sign him to a similar contract. For example, on a 4 year contract, Pittsburgh could offer Jokinen around 6.5M in the first two years (til Jokinen is 34) and offer him 4.5 in the last 2 years (until Jokinen is 37) for a cap hit of 5.5, at least 3 million less than what Malkin would be making.

And

Horton: At 24 years old, hes already an upgrade over Malone. Hes been close to or hit the 30 goal mark for the past 3 seasons and can easily hit 65-70 points next season. And the best part is his contract. Hes signed at 4 million for the next 5 years. Whereas keeping Malkin means getting rid of Malone AND Orpik, getting rid of Malkin means adding Jokinen, Horton, AND having money to re-sign Orpik.

Or

Bouwmeester: This guy is one of the most underrated defenseman in the game. He led the entire league in TOI this year. The fact that next to no one knows that stat says enough as it is He may even be the most underrated player in the game. He is currently a RFA, but hes also vastly underrated and doesnt have great linemates to support him, thus he doesnt have the stats of a RFA who could demand a ton of money. Thereofore he could probably be signed to a longterm contract for around 5M, which would make him Pittsburghs current #2 Dman and easily their #1 in a few short years if not sooner. Having Bouwmeester and Jokinen would still give them a big three up front with Crosby and Hossa, but would give them an incredible boost on the back end too.

To clarify, I meant Jokinen AND Horton for Malkin (plus the 2009 florida 1st rounder)

OR

Jokinen AND Bouwmeester for Malkin

Edited June 15, 2008 by YoungGuns1340

[Glubki 17]

Pittsburgh's defensemen scored a combined total of 28 points in the playoffs.

Rafalski and Kronwall scored 29 points between the two of them and the entire D-squad had 52 points combined.

If I'm a GM I start looking at some transitional d-men who can make a good outlet pass, stay calm on the point and chip in once in a while. Better defensemen will lead to even more production from those talented forwards. Sydor could be bought out, while I liked his physical play Orpik isn't a transitional defenseman and was -3 in the playoffs. Liles, Hainsey, Streit and Roszival would all be better offensive upgrades. Sign Hossa, add a depth forward, let Roberts and Laraque walk and hang on to Malkin through next season.

[omnipotent_hudler 0]

But what else is Shero supposed to do? Sign Lidstrom and Pronger?

His team still has the ability to be a Cup contender this coming season and he has to do all he can to capitalise on that. So why not sign the best players he can? Plus, their D is not that bad and they have an awesome goalie with some pretty good experience now.

let hossa walk and aggressively develop young d/ go after elite FA d

it would be about as popular as Holland sitting on cap money has been

and look where that got us?

[norrisnick 1]

let hossa walk and aggressively develop young d/ go after elite FA d

it would be about as popular as Holland sitting on cap money has been

and look where that got us?

Keep Hossa and move either Malkin or Staal for a blueline bluechipper. Say Malkin for Bouwmeester + whatever.

[marcaractac 3,963]

Keep Hossa and move either Malkin or Staal for a blueline bluechipper. Say Malkin for Bouwmeester + whatever.

I'd say trade Malkin. they can get so much back for him. Staal is gonna be one hell of a player, and one of those types that are built for the playoffs. you just cannot trade a guy like that.

[egroen 384]

I completely agree with the above few posts... as the best route for Pittsburgh.

If they end up retaining Crosby, Hossa, Malkin, Staal... you can write them off to a lot of Western "D first" teams.

[Doggy 130]

YoungGuns post made me think that Ray Shero has to sell his hockey team as well. Let me tell you - they are a very bloody watchable club. Regardless of whether or not they win Cups, if they do well each year with guys like Crosby, Malkin and Hossa - they'll sell out every game.

The fact is, 6-4 wins sell more tickets than 2-0 wins. However, those 2-0 wins are what get you a Cup.

Case in point - Pittsburgh ain't Hockeytown. They do still need reasons to watch the Pens while the Steelers are winning. I'm not saying anyone is wrong, I'm just suggesting this other viewpoint that I believe is worth taking into account.

[omnipotent_hudler 0]

when malkin gets tired of winning big bucks in pitt he can come win a cup in detroit that is all

[Guest Crymson]

Yeah, and Detroit would be doing the exact same thing if they were in Pitt's situation.

Detroit and Anaheim boast the 3 best defensemen in the league. It's a crazy small sample size. No other teams have that luxury. There is no East vs West mentality. It's a "wow, Detroit and Anaheim are really freaking good and have an unfair advantage on the backend" mentality.

But since we seem to be heading towards criticizing Pitt's defense, cut them some slack. Both Whitney and Letang(who we never got to see due to injury) are fantastic young defensemen whom they can build around in the coming years.

Unless you're including Rafalski in that top three (which I'd disagree with), I dispute the fact that Anaheim has two of the top three defensemen in the league. Niedermayer very much showed his age this year, and Pronger was very much not the force he has been in past seasons. They both finished with a negative +/-, for example, and neither of them produced much offensively.

[Cicada 4]

Unless you're including Rafalski in that top three (which I'd disagree with), I dispute the fact that Anaheim has two of the top three defensemen in the league. Niedermayer very much showed his age this year, and Pronger was very much not the force he has been in past seasons. They both finished with a negative +/-, for example, and neither of them produced much offensively.

but the ducks overall didn't produce anything offensively.

wern't they the lowest scorers in the league?

[eva unit zero 271]

but the ducks overall didn't produce anything offensively.

wern't they the lowest scorers in the league?

Based on performance over this past season, I'd rank the top six Wings and Ducks defensemen in the following order:

Lidstrom

Rafalski

Schneider

Niedermayer

Kronwall

Pronger

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Based on performance over this past season, I'd rank the top six Wings and Ducks defensemen in the following order:

Lidstrom

Rafalski

Schneider

Niedermayer

Kronwall

Pronger

I hope you're basing that on stats only, because in my book Pronger is still the 2nd best defenseman in the league.

[eva unit zero 271]

I hope you're basing that on stats only, because in my book Pronger is still the 2nd best defenseman in the league.

Pronger had a horrendous season. His worst year since Hartford. He was nowhere near the top group of defensemen THIS SEASON.

His name and what he has achieved over his career don't change that; otherwise Hasek would have been a Vezina finalist.

But this season, Pronger wasn't even top two on his team.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Pronger had a horrendous season. His worst year since Hartford. He was nowhere near the top group of defensemen THIS SEASON.

His name and what he has achieved over his career don't change that; otherwise Hasek would have been a Vezina finalist.

But this season, Pronger wasn't even top two on his team.

He wasn't great, but he wasn't as bad as you say. Statistically he had some worse seasons in St. Louis than the one this year.

Their team in general just had trouble scoring goals early on in the season. I don't think it can all be pinned on him.

Also, remember that Lidstrom put up lousy numbers in 2004, and he rebounded from that season to win 3 more Norris trophies. So I expect Pronger to bounce back next year and take back his perennial #2 spot behind Lidstrom.

[egroen 384]

Pronger is horribily inconsistent and has not come even close to averaging #2 behind Lidstrom. He certainly has talent, but he is more of a perennial #6.

Edited June 15, 2008 by egroen

[Shaman 713]

Pronger isn't even top ten in my book, hes too dangerous, you have to be able to count on your top 2 dmen to be able to go out and be there night in and night out, in the last 2 seasons hes becoming more reckless and getting suspended more. As for Hossa, I still dont see him as a lock in Pittsburgh, I have been hearing from my friend in Montreal that their media is saying the Habs are telling Hossa's agent under the table that he will get a lot of cash and play time, and that hes interested to see what they have to offer him.