Penguins Offer Hossa Extension

[Frozen-Man 144]

Of course. on the other hand, they can trade Hossa/Malkin/Staal at any point during those 7 years. (if they are all signed of course).

True, but it wouldn't look good for the organization or help build a sense of respect for players if Hossa agrees to take a big discount to stay in Pitt for a long term and then they trade him (with the added value of his cheaper contract) in the first 3 or 4 years to a team with no real chance at the cup. How screwed would you feel as a player knowing that you took a big paycut to play with a team and then they traded you away (I know it is always a risk but is seems that part of the "understanding" of a home team discount is that the home team won't send you packing - at least for several years).

I like Hossa but just don't think he is the Pens most desperate need either now or in the forseeable future and as such I would be wary to lock him up for so much and so long a time when they already have so much offense.

[egroen 384]

I would be shocked if Hossa did not get a no-trade clause if he were to accept that kind of discount.

If Pittsburgh is able to sign Hossa now and Malkin next year (another no-trade clause?) I really believe they are screwed. I just do not buy that three uber-stars can carry a team of AHLers to the Cup... and that is where they are headed.

It will be a revolving door for Pittsburgh, depending on young, cheap prospects to fill holes... if they improve, Pittsburgh can't afford them, and the Penguins, while still flush with good prospects right now, are not getting many new ones through trade losses, and simply finishing higher and getting lower draft picks as a result. This year, for instance, I think they only have like 4 picks and not a 1st round. Other holes will have to be filled by journeymen.

I know it would be unpopular, but I would sign Hossa and trade Malkin as soon as possible.

Malkin has a lot more potential, but you can gain a *lot* by trading him... whereas you gain nothing from letting Hossa walk.

Edited June 16, 2008 by egroen

[Nero 20]

It's not like their huge offense can be stopped or anything

[Wings_Fan_In_Exile 3]

Also, I don't see why people are so gun-ho on Hossa over Malkin anyway. I don't deny that Hossa is a pure goal scorer and a damn good one at that, but lets put this in perspective. Hossa is going to be 30 this season, Malkin is 22. Hossa had 29 goals this season, Malkin had 47. Hossa finished with 66 points, Malkin with 106. Hossa will likely always play on the first line with Crosby, where as Malkin can shore up your second line and balance out your attack. So instead of spending $16 million on 2/3 of a top line and being one-dimensional and thus forcing Malkin to be shipped out, you now have two of the best centers in the game creating scoring chances, and BTW Malkin can bury plenty on his own.

I guess my point is, there isn't too much of a difference in value between Hossa and Malkin, and when you look at the numbers, Malkin has much more of an upside at this point, *and most importantly* fits the team needs more so than Hossa.

Bottom line, get a solid Dman....then worry about up front.

I'm in total agreement with this post. When the Pens traded for Hossa on deadline day, I always assumed it was a 'one shot deal' for The Cup and that he'd sign elsewhere come the off-season.

If nothing else, I thought the SCF's proved the cliche Defense Wins Championships.

[Superman54 91]

As did I, never would have thought for them to pitch him an offer, considering all the future talent they must re-sign. If they do re-sign Hossa, and Malkin, and Fluery, I don't know how they will be able to afford the likes of Staal, and all their young defensemen. With all that money going to offense, I do see much hope for their back end. I guess we will just have to wait and see how it plays out.

Edited June 16, 2008 by Superman54

[Anomalously 0]

Just another note, if Hossa for $7.14m/year is seen as a huge bargain/steal/etc., what do you guys think Zetterberg is actually worth? I realize it's a good number for the Penguins, but $8M might be on the high side when you consider he's a few months older than Z and we all expect Z to take less than that. Meanwhile, young phenom Crosby makes $8.7 over a similar term, Ovechkin makes $9.5, but over 13 years. $8M would be more than Lidstrom has been making, more than Richards ($7.8, signed after a Conne Smythe), more than Thornton ($6.6M), more than Iginla ($7M)

[egroen -- specifically would like to hear your thoughts here -- I think we both acknowledge he could make $8M/year from some overeager GM, but would that not in fact be paying more than market value?]

Edited June 16, 2008 by Anomalously

[David 2]

Just another note, if Hossa for $7.14m/year is seen as a huge bargain/steal/etc., what do you guys think Zetterberg is actually worth? I realize it's a good number for the Penguins, but $8M might be on the high side when you consider he's a few months older than Z and we all expect Z to take less than that. Meanwhile, young phenom Crosby makes $8.7 over a similar term, Ovechkin makes $9.5, but over 13 years. $8M would be more than Lidstrom has been making, more than Richards ($7.8, signed after a Conne Smythe), more than Thornton ($6.6M), more than Iginla ($7M)

[egroen -- specifically would like to hear your thoughts here -- I think we both acknowledge he could make $8M/year from some overeager GM, but would that not in fact be paying more than market value?]

I imagine the Wings will try to sign Zetterberg to a contract similar to Datsyuk's, albeit probably a slightly higher salary.

[chrisdetroit 189]

I disagree.

Crosby > Lecavalier

Hossa >> St.Louis

Malkin >> B.Richard

It is much better to spend 7 million on Hossa than Mike Green or someone like that.

There are not any elite defensemen available. Hossa is very good defensively. If Penguins can keep Crosby, Hossa, Malkin, Staal and Fleury..they will be real contender.

They could go after Jay Bouwmeester, but I heard Florida will not let him go.

If they keep every single one of their current players they will in fact be a contender for the Eastern Conference crown. This years finals though showed that they are not contenders for the Cup and will not be until they add some great all around players, especially on defense.

They got their asses handed to them by Detroit (Only 10 goals in 6 games). If they somehow miraculously stand pat, they will not win a cup. Unfortunately for them, the BEST that they can do is keep SOME of their superstars but not all.

Detroit isn't going to get weaker (maybe we will lose Staurt) and Pittsburgh has almost no chance to get stronger.

If you repeat the same thing, you will get the same results.

[egroen 384]

Zetterberg has said in a couple interviews now he would take less money to stay in Detroit. Fortunately, Detroit has a long history of players taking much less money to stay with a competitive team year-in and year-out. -- This is the only real, consistent way to "cheat" the cap.

Datsyuk is at $6.8 million and Lidstrom is at $7.45 million -- my guess is that he signs for closer to Lidstrom, but does not go over it. The cap is higher than when Datsyuk signed and Zetterberg has done nothing but improve over that time, though I am sure that is where the Wings will start. How awesome would it be if he took exactly what Datsyuk is making, though??

The only thing really keeping his salary down for other GMs would be his history of injuries (and it is significant that he has never played a full season in the NHL)-- so I do not think anyone would make a Crosby/Ovechkin offer similar in years or salary, but your $8- $8.5 million guess seems about right for a GM determined to make a significant splash. Could definitely be overpaying, especially if Zetterberg's back starts keeping him out for more of the season.

Edited June 16, 2008 by egroen

[selkie 10]

Also, I don't see why people are so gun-ho on Hossa over Malkin anyway.

You go by what you've actually seen.

Because if you did a survey of the folks here about how many Pens games they watched last year, I'd bet that on average, more than half the Pens gamees watched were in the finals, and Hossa seems to be their best forward, by far, in said finals games.

Up until about game 6, Malkin was Milk Carton boy.

[stud_defenseman 1]

So because Dmen are slim this offseason, it advocates spending $7 million per on the other end? Don't get me wrong, $7 million for Hossa is a good deal, but team needs can't be overlooked. First and foremost, there are good UFA Dmen out there. While there isn't a profusion, there are solid Dmen available that will help Pittsburgh's cause. On top of that, Shero should be working the phones right now. He needs to be looking around the the league for tradeable Dmen or ones that are entering the final year of their contracts. Just because the UFA list isn't overriding with names, doesn't mean most GM's wouldn't entertain trades for guys heading into their final contract year. It happens all to often.

Well, the problem is that with the lack of talent on Defence a lot of teams will be willing to pay a bit extra for those guys. So, either they overpay for half-rate talent, or they go out and get a good deal on a good two way forward. Atleast he can play defence

[Frozen-Man 144]

Detroit isn't going to get weaker (maybe we will lose Staurt) and Pittsburgh has almost no chance to get stronger.

If you repeat the same thing, you will get the same results.

I disagree that the Pens have no chance of getting stronger. I agree with you that they have almost no chance of adding players and getting stronger BUT I think that Crosby, Malkin, Stall, and Fluery will all be much better if they make it back to the SCF next year. I also think that many of the Wings players will continue to improve but the young age (more room to improve) of the Pens and the fact that they lost this year will make all of those players into a stronger and harder team to play.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

You go by what you've actually seen.

Because if you did a survey of the folks here about how many Pens games they watched last year, I'd bet that on average, more than half the Pens gamees watched were in the finals, and Hossa seems to be their best forward, by far, in said finals games.

Up until about game 6, Malkin was Milk Carton boy.

Gimme a break. Malkin put up 22 playoff points compared to Hossa's 26. Malkin had 3 points in the finals compared to Hossa's 6. So Malkin had a tougher round than Hossa, but he put up similar numbers in the postseason, yet destroyed Hossa in the regular season. Couple that with 8 years of an age difference and things aren't as lopsided in Hossa's favor as some here believe.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Well, the problem is that with the lack of talent on Defence a lot of teams will be willing to pay a bit extra for those guys. So, either they overpay for half-rate talent, or they go out and get a good deal on a good two way forward. Atleast he can play defence

Evidently, its not that easy as shown in the SCF's.

[C-TownWing 0]

I don't think it has anything to do with lack of hart. Even though he dismissed it himself, playing sick in the first couple of games must have affected his game, and when you add to that his inexperience in games like these, it isn't a mayor chock that he didn't blow the world away in the final. Just think of how many great players that has been "bad" in their first playoffs.

Exactly. Lest we forget, Datsyuk and Zetterberg were once considered playoff chokers. They must not have had heart then either. Malkin was great until the CFs, my thought it that he just ran out of gas playing that many games. He'll adjust.

Actually the whole idea of "Lindros-ing" Malkin has actually grown on me, and grab a buttload of decent to good players and picks. Hey, you never know either...Forsberg actually ended up having a better career than Lindros anyway.

But just on Malkin vs. Hossa...all things being equal, I'd keep Malkin because he gives you the ability to run two great scoring lines out there (a line's only as good as its center), where Hossa would just be Crosby's finisher. With Hossa, you run more of a risk of being the new Senators, with all of your good players/cap space playing on the same forward line.

[chrisdetroit 189]

I disagree that the Pens have no chance of getting stronger. I agree with you that they have almost no chance of adding players and getting stronger BUT I think that Crosby, Malkin, Stall, and Fluery will all be much better if they make it back to the SCF next year. I also think that many of the Wings players will continue to improve but the young age (more room to improve) of the Pens and the fact that they lost this year will make all of those players into a stronger and harder team to play.

I meant that they would not get stronger by adding personnel because of the salary cap issue. And in fact they are definitely going to lose some of their guys.

Sure you could argue that their young players (whichever ones are left) will improve but you could argue the same thing about any team. Will Crosby and Fleury improve - maybe but you could also argue that the Wings will improve as Filpulla, Hudler and Helm improve. Their is also a chance that some of these guys WON'T improve. It's a crap shoot. Fleury could turn into the next Jose Theodore. My point is that we just don't know.

Based on the fact that they ARE going to lose some of their team and that they don't have the salary cap room to add significant talent and the fact that they got their asses kicked in the finals this year it's unlikely that they will win the Cup next year.

Then there is the fact that their coaching is at best average, I'm not to worried about the Pens.

Dallas and San Jose maybe, but the Pens, no.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

I just see Hossa going to Montreal. They have money and want to waste it bad, why not do it on a 40 goal scorer?

[chrisdetroit 189]

I would be shocked if Hossa did not get a no-trade clause if he were to accept that kind of discount.

If Pittsburgh is able to sign Hossa now and Malkin next year (another no-trade clause?) I really believe they are screwed. I just do not buy that three uber-stars can carry a team of AHLers to the Cup... and that is where they are headed.

It will be a revolving door for Pittsburgh, depending on young, cheap prospects to fill holes... if they improve, Pittsburgh can't afford them, and the Penguins, while still flush with good prospects right now, are not getting many new ones through trade losses, and simply finishing higher and getting lower draft picks as a result. This year, for instance, I think they only have like 4 picks and not a 1st round. Other holes will have to be filled by journeymen.

I know it would be unpopular, but I would sign Hossa and trade Malkin as soon as possible.

Malkin has a lot more potential, but you can gain a *lot* by trading him... whereas you gain nothing from letting Hossa walk.

They are already screwed. Their team is built around a handful of high priced superstars. You can't win the cup based on that strategy with the salary cap. You need a large supporting cast of lower priced talented guys. To get these guys you need to draft them and bring them up through the ranks. Pittsburgh screwed up when they traded 4 very good prospects for 1 superstar who now wants 7+ Mil to stick around.

They were screwed when they made that deal at the trade deadline. Now those 4 guys are gone and the Superstar wants his paycheck.

[Frozen-Man 144]

I meant that they would not get stronger by adding personnel because of the salary cap issue. And in fact they are definitely going to lose some of their guys.

Sure you could argue that their young players (whichever ones are left) will improve but you could argue the same thing about any team. Will Crosby and Fleury improve - maybe but you could also argue that the Wings will improve as Filpulla, Hudler and Helm improve. Their is also a chance that some of these guys WON'T improve. It's a crap shoot. Fleury could turn into the next Jose Theodore. My point is that we just don't know.

Based on the fact that they ARE going to lose some of their team and that they don't have the salary cap room to add significant talent and the fact that they got their asses kicked in the finals this year it's unlikely that they will win the Cup next year.

Then there is the fact that their coaching is at best average, I'm not to worried about the Pens.

Dallas and San Jose maybe, but the Pens, no.

I acknowledged that they wouldn't get better because of adding players and I agree with you about it not being certain that their players get better but there are very few people that think that Crosby, Malkin, and Staal won't get better and probably an incredible amount better than they were in the SCFs. I agree that Flip, Huds, and Helm will probably likely get better (and actually I think that they will end up being much better than a lot of people here do) but most people would bet on Crosby, Malkin, and Staal increasing in ability much more than they would Flip, Huds, and Helm. That is all that I was saying is that next year or the year after if, and that is a big if, the Pens are back at the SCF I would be amazed if Crosby, Malkin, and Staal (especially Malkin) were not TONS better. I just don't think that given a year or two and the experience that they garnered this year Malkin will only have 3 points in 6 games.

Oh and yeah their coaching is bad and a real cause for concern.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Gimme a break. Malkin put up 22 playoff points compared to Hossa's 26. Malkin had 3 points in the finals compared to Hossa's 6. So Malkin had a tougher round than Hossa, but he put up similar numbers in the postseason, yet destroyed Hossa in the regular season. Couple that with 8 years of an age difference and things aren't as lopsided in Hossa's favor as some here believe.

Its not about it being lopsided in Hossa's favor. Its about the fact that you could TRADE Malkin, and you cant do that with Hossa.

If you keep Malkin, and let Hossa go, you gain nothing except some cap space for the pathetic free agency pool this year.

If you keep Hossa, you get him for 7 years in his prime at a discounted price, AND you can offer up Malkin for a slew of goodies.

Its not about Hossa vs. Malkin, its about whatever you trade Malkin for + Hossa vs. Malkin.

[edicius 3,269]

Yeah, but if they sign Hossa and then want to trade Malkin, other GMs will have Shero over a barrel, knowing that he HAS to get rid of Malkin, cap-wise. It's the Brian Burke position of negotiation. Not saying that Malkin would go cheap, but they certainly wouldn't be getting as much in return as they might have if Hossa wasn't in the mix.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Yeah, but if they sign Hossa and then want to trade Malkin, other GMs will have Shero over a barrel, knowing that he HAS to get rid of Malkin, cap-wise. It's the Brian Burke position of negotiation. Not saying that Malkin would go cheap, but they certainly wouldn't be getting as much in return as they might have if Hossa wasn't in the mix.

No way that happens. This isnt Ilya freaking Bryzgalov were talking about here. This is a top 3 player where pure offense is concerned. And Pittsburgh would have A YEAR to trade him. He doesnt become an offical RFA until July 1st, 2009. However, whoever holds his rights can negotiate a deal with him starting July 1st, 2008.

Give Shero a year to work out a deal for Malkin and I can guarantee you the sharks will be swimming. The bidding for a 22 year old Hart nominee with a 100 point season already under his belt that can be signed to a decade long contract if they wish will perk any GMs interest that has the space and has the needs.

People are vastly underestimating what Malkin brings to the table in a business sense. Adding a guy like Malkin to your roster would bring out the fans just to see the guy play. Believe it or not, the majority of owners motivation for owning a hockey team is not to play a real-life game of EHM, but to make money. And if youre a franchise that cant make your money by perennially making the playoffs, you do it with hype.

See, Im of the opposite opinion. If Im Shero, Im giving GMs the chance of a lifetime by putting Malkin on the block. I think the point that a lot of people here are missing is that Shero DOES NOT HAVE TO TRADE MALKIN OR LET HOSSA GO. He CAN have his cake and eat it too. He CAN re-sign Malkin and sign Hossa too. Is his team going to take a hit elsewhere? Yes. But its not going to affect his chances to get into the playoffs. In the Eastern conference, you can blow through the playoffs if you have a high-powered offense and little defense. He may have to cut out the likes of Sykora and Gill, but hell still have the likes of Hossa, Malkin, Staal, Crosby, Whitney, Gonchar, and Fleury to get him through it. That'll do.

If Im Shero, and GMs are trying to pull the wool over my eyes, I say fine. Im not trading Malkin. Ill keep him and adjust my team elsewhere. And if thats what Shero has to do, thats what hell do. Its not like hes trying to trade a bloated overpaid veteran here. He has a YEAR to re-sign Malkin where no one else can touch him, not even offer him an offer-sheet.

IMO, If Shero trades Malkin, the other GM is gonna be the one getting fleeced. His team just made the NHL finals. Hes not looking to downgrade. If he trades Malkin, itll be for a BETTER return value-wise than Malkin is alone.

Edited June 16, 2008 by YoungGuns1340

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Its not about it being lopsided in Hossa's favor. Its about the fact that you could TRADE Malkin, and you cant do that with Hossa.

If you keep Malkin, and let Hossa go, you gain nothing except some cap space for the pathetic free agency pool this year.

If you keep Hossa, you get him for 7 years in his prime at a discounted price, AND you can offer up Malkin for a slew of goodies.

Its not about Hossa vs. Malkin, its about whatever you trade Malkin for + Hossa vs. Malkin.

You're not telling me anything I don't already know. I completely understood the upside of retaining Hossa and then shopping Malkin, as that wasn't part of the debate I was having. Where I question it is how far Shero will get with it. I can see him looking at the wrong way. I could absolutely see him thinking his team has a legit shot of winning it all in the '09 playoffs and feeling he's got time to figure it out. 2008 free agency comes and goes, the team starts off on a decent pace, then the deadline hits and they once again try and make a run for it, absolutely needing all their pieces.

Look, here's my point....if you want to trade anything, I'd trade Hossa's rights to a trade-and-sign that Hossa is okay with *today*. Maybe Hossa would sign, maybe he wouldn't given that he's healthy and free agency is a couple weeks away, but if you could get the right team in place for the right price, I can't imagine he'd say no. Then you've got some great return for a soon-to-be 30 year-old (who BTW maybe in his prime the next couple seasons, but is not going to be in prime for the majority of this 7-year contract), plus room to retain Malkin.

Cast Hossa's name out there immediately and see what fish bite before July 1st.

[edicius 3,269]

Give Shero a year to work out a deal for Malkin and I can guarantee you the sharks will be swimming. The bidding for a 22 year old Hart nominee with a 100 point season already under his belt that can be signed to a decade long contract if they wish will perk any GMs interest that has the space and has the needs.

True, true. Hell, if he holds onto Malkin until the trade deadline, Shero could get some crazy return. In any case, it'll be interesting to see what happens.

[LeftWinger 5,153]

...here is what the Pens fans are ALL missing. In order to learn from losing and grow as a unit, you are not suppossed to get rid of important cogs in the machinery. Sure, Crosby will mature more, Malkin will too. Fluery looked average at times and NEEDS to improve, he priobably will as well. Throw all the money you want at Hossa, he's gonna put in his points again as well (maybe, he's usually a playoff no-show, but as most players are in contracts years, as was he.) Here lies the problem, Ryan Malone. The Pens are taking away 9 goals and 7 assists along with probably being the closet thing to a power forward you had. Whether or not he showed up in the finals (heck, most of your team not named Hossa or Crosby, didn't show up) He was still a very important part to your regular season success and your playoff success. You learn to lose as a group. You gain the experience together, you grow together. By just keeping your team the same and GIVING AWAY players, you are headed for a letdown. When the Wings lost in 95 and 96, they traded away two players who really didn't do too much in the playoffs (Primeau especially) in order to BETTER their team. They didn't trade away one of their leading scorers in the playoffs. Maybe I am wrong, but I think Pitt is gonna miss Ryan Malone more than they think. Just ask Burke about NOT re-signing Penner...

...and oh, about the YOUNG Pens get leaps and bounds better than our YOUNG Wings. Next year, Datsyuk and Zetterberg will be much better as well. Our defense gets younger and bigger with Ericcson comng in, and if they lose McCarty or Downey or Kopecky and gain Rolston? How much better did the Wings get? You arguement holds no water when you say the likes Crosby and Malkin will improve more than Hudler and Filpulla. Crosby and Malkin already lead theleague in scoring, how much improvement do they need? Hudler and Filpulla have no where to go but up! Face it, some players just weren't cut out to be playoff players, just ask Eric Lindros...