Marian Hossa will test free agent market

[therock48880 14]

I've quietly read the banter in this thread and finally decided to weigh in. How on earth can anyone in the world possibly think that a team doesn't "need" a player of Hossa's skill? I've literally laughed out loud at people who typed that. He's a great scorer, that's a given, but he's also a great defensive forward. No, the Wings don't need a player like that. (sarcasm). I guess if there is no one on the wings roster that is worse than Hossa, you could say he isn't needed. Otherwise, the comment makes no sense at all. So, if Crosby were available, would the wings not "need" him either because they already have a lot of centers? Complacency is the worst thing for a championship team.

Having said that, I don't think there's any way the Wings get him, but I'd certainly love it if they did.

[egroen 384]

I'm going to spin off this point a bit. Sure we don't need Hossa. But by adding him, he makes a lot of other options unnecessary. With a guy like Hossa we can go young for that #4 defensive spot. Not only because he provides a lot of extra goals, but also because he's a top 5 two-way forward along with Z and Pavel. He'd be a seemless integration into our team defense scheme.

And the flipside of that coin:

What if Osgood is injured and Howard as the only option is still not starter material?

Than we *need* a goalie.

What if none of the youngsters develops enough for that #4 role, or worse, we have an injury to our top 3 D?

Then we *need* a defencemen.

Both have a legitimate chance of happening, and both will not be cheap to fill. Hossa hamstrings this team and prevents Holland from making those fixes without getting ripped off in a trade.

Hossa would be incredible here, no doubt about it... but the only way it would work realistically is to trade Datsyuk or let Zetterberg walk in a year. I prefer both of them to Hossa. I also prefer Fillppula/Franzen/Hudler to Hossa. All three can be had for less than Hossa, and chances are on any given night, one of them will be playing hot and producing just as much as Hossa.

I was laughing at Pittsburgh when they gave Hossa an offer. $25 million for three forwards would make them a two line team... even worse than the Wings' situation with Hossa, and their goalie costs a lot more than ours. They would lose Malone, Staal, Orpik and probably Whitney to keep that.

[norrisnick 1]

And the flipside of that coin:

What if Osgood is injured and Howard as the only option is still not starter material?

Than we *need* a goalie.

What if none of the youngsters develops enough for that #4 role, or worse, we have an injury to our top 3 D?

Then we *need* a defencemen.

Both have a legitimate chance of happening, and both will not be cheap to fill. Hossa hamstrings this team and prevents Holland from making those fixes without getting ripped off in a trade.

Hossa would be incredible here, no doubt about it... but the only way it would work realistically is to trade Datsyuk or let Zetterberg walk in a year. I prefer both of them to Hossa. I also prefer Fillppula/Franzen/Hudler to Hossa. All three can be had for less than Hossa, and chances are on any given night, one of them will be playing hot and producing just as much as Hossa.

I was laughing at Pittsburgh when they gave Hossa an offer. $25 million for three forwards would make them a two line team... even worse than the Wings' situation with Hossa, and their goalie costs a lot more than ours. They would lose Malone, Staal, Orpik and probably Whitney to keep that.

If we lose a goalie or defenseman and they need to be replaced mid-season we'd have to pay high value in a trade for them regardless. And this season there would be very little if any cap squeeze (depending on what kind of replacement we'd need to bring in). It's next season where the cap becomes an issue.

I still don't get this facination with the concept that if we sign Hossa that it would have to be our best players and the young up and comers that might potentially be forced out the door. It's ridiculous to presume that adding Hossa would mean one of Z or Pavel would have to go. You don't make cap room by getting rid of your best players. We didn't buy out Lidstrom and let Z and Pavel walk coming out of the lockout. We bought out Hatcher, Cujo, Whitney, and McCarty. A similar principle would be applied in this case.

Though IMO it would never have to get that far barring a disaster, but that's what LTIR is for.

[egroen 384]

I've quietly read the banter in this thread and finally decided to weigh in. How on earth can anyone in the world possibly think that a team doesn't "need" a player of Hossa's skill? I've literally laughed out loud at people who typed that. He's a great scorer, that's a given, but he's also a great defensive forward. No, the Wings don't need a player like that. (sarcasm). I guess if there is no one on the wings roster that is worse than Hossa, you could say he isn't needed. Otherwise, the comment makes no sense at all. So, if Crosby were available, would the wings not "need" him either because they already have a lot of centers? Complacency is the worst thing for a championship team.

Having said that, I don't think there's any way the Wings get him, but I'd certainly love it if they did.

A forward of that skill is needed - in fact, the Wings already have two of them.

Hossa and Crosby are not needed, the Wings just won a Stanley Cup without them.

I appreciate Holland because he fields a competitor every year, without screwing around with team chemistry or personnel every other year. I greatly prefer that over a team like Tampa Bay, blowing it's wad for one year, only to not make the playoffs the next because it can't afford to keep everyone and finishing dead last the next.

What team doesn't "need" a goalie like Luongo? I am sure there is a package the Wings could offer Vancouver to get him... there is no doubt in my mind it could be done.

[norrisnick 1]

A forward of that skill is needed - in fact, the Wings already have two of them.

Hossa and Crosby are not needed, the Wings just won a Stanley Cup without them.

I appreciate Holland because he fields a competitor every year, without screwing around with team chemistry or personnel every other year. I greatly prefer that over a team like Tampa Bay, blowing it's wad for one year, only to not make the playoffs the next because it can't afford to keep everyone and finishing dead last the next.

What team doesn't "need" a goalie like Luongo? I am sure there is a package the Wings could offer Vancouver to get him... there is no doubt in my mind it could be done.

Adding one player will not tear the team or its chemistry apart.

The problem in Tampa is two-fold. 1. They had an internal budget lower than the cap ceiling. 2. They spent a s*** ton of money on offensive forwards with no team defense or balance to save them. Neither of those would be issues in Detroit.

[Turretin 0]

I have no problem with Holland running the numbers and making an offer to Hossa (with the reality that it would be lower than offers made by a handful of other teams). My guess is that Holland's plan involves more serious pitches to a couple "tier 2" UFAs (like Rolston). Also, I don't think the management has quite forgotten how we lost to the Ducks in 07. You can never have enough good D.

All that said, I understand that Hossa would fit and plays sound 2-way hockey. However, a 2-way forward is different than a defenseman.

[Dabura 12,207]

I don't think the management has quite forgotten how we lost to the Ducks in 07.

We lost because because we failed to convert on a dozen straight 5-on-3s. True, the absence of Schneider and Kronwall didn't help, but we hung right in there defensively. Ultimately, it was our inability to score when we absolutely needed to score that sank us.

And I agree with Nick -- a top-tier defensive forward like Hossa would give us more leeway with that #4 spot.

Edited June 24, 2008 by Dabura

[BlakChamber 8]

Hossa is every bit as well-rounded as Mule. If you've ever watched him play (I mean really watched him), you'd know he's arguably one of the most defensively aware and responsible top-line forwards in the league. That's his appeal: he's a lights-out scorer who also has a great defensive game.

My question is this: Does anyone who doesn't want Hossa on this team have any, you know, legitimate arguments?

The only legitimate argument I can see is the the price. That's it.

The idea that we don't need to improve is laughable. The other 29 teams in league are trying to get better this off season, why shouldn't the Wings?

Same with chemistry. I can maybe see making the argument when its a deadline deal, but he's going to have all of training camp and all year to play with the Wings. Not an issue.

[sdogg1m 3]

If we can get Hossa and that somehow works with keeping Franzen after a break out year then I am all for it.

If we lose Franzen then I will be ticked.

[egroen 384]

Again, assuming the Wings lose Stuart, the best bet and what Holland is way more apt to do, is go after a defensively responsible 2nd line forward. Rolston would be perfect.

Does not hamstring the budget in case you need to make another free agent signing (and you would not have to trade away cap space), does not force you to 'hope' the cap jumps up a ton and gives you flexibility.

That flexibility is worth more than the difference Hossa would make.

Defense is the reason we lost to Anaheim, not defensively, but offensively... A large portion of the Wings' offense is derived from it's defense, and not having Schneider and Kronwall made a big difference to our offence. If you start partnering Kronwall with someone like Meech or Ericsson, he is not jumping up nearly as much (like we saw in the playoffs) and has to play more conservatively. Maybe one of the young defenceman could grow into that role, but I would not bet all my money on it... as you would have them doing by signing Hossa.

Edited June 24, 2008 by egroen

[Opie 308]

There is a huge media campaign/assault (for lack of better term) on the Bruins to step up and join the other Teams around here (Boston area, I am in NH, but 45 min outside of Boston) and bring in a championship.

The town is in a frenzy and with the C's climb to the top after such a drought has brought a lot of attention to the lack of success and the fact that the B's has been run like a business trying to make money (Joe Thornton trade) instead of win championships.

I see the B's making a huge play at Hossa and Sundin and maybe even a mid level defenseman. I could also see them making a play at a guy like Thibault if Tuuka Rask is not ready yet.

[grovercleveland 0]

Its all ready been stated before but my buddy whos a pens fan sent me this about an hour ago in a mail:

"Red Wings GM Ken Holland met with the agent for defenseman Brad Stuart this weekend. Stuart is believed to only be interested in resigning with Detroit or going back to LA to be close to this his family. Sources also tell TIOPS some how the Red Wings are going to make a offer to Marian Hossa"

Hossa is interested in playin for Detroit, so maybe he wont break our bank!!

[Opie 308]

Any one think the Russian League makes a play at him like they did Malkin?

[Turretin 0]

Any one think the Russian League makes a play at him like they did Malkin?

I don't think so. I think the Russian League is looking of its Bobby Hull. They need a poster child. A young Russian Superstar would do that. A Czech, not so much. I can't think of anyone else that fits the bill like Malkin did.

[Opie 308]

I don't think so. I think the Russian League is looking of its Bobby Hull. They need a poster child. A young Russian Superstar would do that. A Czech, not so much. I can't think of anyone else that fits the bill like Malkin did.

Yeah I guess it would make more sense to make the big signing a Russian, I was more thinking of just a big name, but you bring up a great point about it being a native.

[FireCaptain 563]

My bad, I missed the 9/10 part..

And a cool mil is more fun to say than a cool eight hundred and fifty.

Take another look, buddy. Thats the roster for 2009-2010. Chelios also hasnt made 1M in at least 3 years. And he shouldnt be coming back in 09-10.

[Wings_Dynasty 267]

With Hossa: Our PP lines

Z-Dats-Homer

Lids-Raffy

Hossa-Flip/Rex-Stein

Kronner-Ericsson (young D who has a cannon and has a chance to play as #6 man with Lebda/Lilja/Chelios/Meech/Quincey)

Sick...

[dallas27 7]

A forward of that skill is needed - in fact, the Wings already have two of them.

Hossa and Crosby are not needed, the Wings just won a Stanley Cup without them.

So it's a given that the Wings are absolutely going to win the Stanley Cup next year because they won without them? So every NHL team out there isn't going to make any move at all so that they don't get any better allowing the Red Wings to sit back, do nothing and repeat?

I appreciate Holland because he fields a competitor every year, without screwing around with team chemistry or personnel every other year. I greatly prefer that over a team like Tampa Bay, blowing it's wad for one year, only to not make the playoffs the next because it can't afford to keep everyone and finishing dead last the next.

Did Stuart screw up any team chemistry? Wouldn't acquiring someone at the trade deadline screw up the team chemistry rather than acquiring someone in the off-season thus allowing him to acclimate to the team? But this is moot for two reasons. Team chemistry is overrated on the Wings. They have a system, not team chemistry. And two, Playing hockey is like riding a bike. Throw any 5 high-level hockey players on a line and they will make plays. I know this from personal experience and the many select camps I have been to. And news flash: The Detroit Red Wings are a dynasty. Every year the organization will put out a winning team. Going after a player of Hossa's skill further cements them into their dynasty status.

What team doesn't "need" a goalie like Luongo? I am sure there is a package the Wings could offer Vancouver to get him... there is no doubt in my mind it could be done.

You really, really, really, really "need" to stop putting "need" in "quotations." And you really "need" to stop saying the Red Wings don't "need" Hossa. Yea, don't add a forward that could win a Hart trophy if he were on this team. Yea, don't add a player who finished one point behind the Conn Smythe winner despite disappearing for a series. Yea, don't add one of the best two-way forwards playing right now. THAT WOULD MAKE NO SENSE AND IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM BE THE BEST OPTION FOR THE TEAM. It's not a matter of if the Wings "need" him, it's a matter of if the Wings can afford him.

And please stop with the what-if's. You can play that ALL day. I have one for you. What if Pat LaFontaine, who the Illitches wanted to draft, is drafted instead of Steve Yzerman? OH WAIT, IT DOESN'T MATTER. So stop with them, they are absolutely worthless. Should we start with the coulda, woulda, shoulda's as well?

[Opie 308]

The Wings don't need Hossa, could they use him, yes but a team like Montreal, Boston, Toronto, Vancouver, Florida, etc need a player like Hossa, they need a top line scoring threat, where as it would be great to have him on Detroit, however he is not needed with the line up the wings currently have.

Need (Merriam Webster)

Main Entry:

Pronunciation:

\ˈnēd\

Function:

noun

Etymology:

Middle English ned, from Old English nīed, nēd; akin to Old High German nōt distress, need, Old Prussian nautin need

Date:

before 12th century

1: necessary duty : obligation2 a: a lack of something requisite, desirable, or useful b: a physiological or psychological requirement for the well-being of an organism3: a condition requiring supply or relief4: lack of the means of subsistence : poverty

There is a difference between needing him, and having him making the team better, no one is saying he wouldn't make the team better, but he is not necessary.

Not everything is Black and White or Wrong vs Right. This is one of those, the wings don't need him they have 2 players in Dats and Z that are IMO better than Hossa, but he would be a damn nice addition.

[stud_defenseman 1]

If hes able to do that, then yes, but if he doesnt, Hudler will be looking to make 3M easily, if not more. My motive for saying that Holland will be looking to trade Hudler is that Hudlers paycheck will far exceed 1M come 09-10.

unless huds improves his defensive play he will not be making near 3 mill a year... who knows where he will be at this time next season though. I am expecting a big year out of him and flip. Lets just hope that everyone doesn't dump all over huds halfway through the season when he doesn't continue his scoring ways.

[stud_defenseman 1]

To be honest, I am not sure why everyone is so interested in this topic. There is no way the wings will offer enough to hossa to get the deal done. We have done well because we have found players who want to play for this organization and will accept a slightly lower pay to do so. Once flip, franzen get their new contracts they will need some of that money. Two seasons from now I would bet that Flip, Franzen's and Cleary's contracts combined wouldn't be much more than Hossa's alone. Which would you rather have? I would certainly take an entire second line over one guy.

Edit: Offer sundin a big contract for one year. Let him go after that. No loss to us.

Edited June 25, 2008 by stud_defenseman

[Dabura 12,207]

egroen,

I'll reiterate yet again that I believe Hossa coming here is a pipe dream. So does everyone else who's arguing against you here. What you're saying -- that it's much more likely Holland will save up money for a potential deadline deal or a less costly FA pickup -- is not news to anyone here. In fact, just the other day I was asserting in some other thread that if Stuart does decide to walk, Holland will most likely set aside some cash for a potential replacement, as opposed to splurging on a high-priced FA forward like Sundin or Hossa. It's just common sense.

Having said that, it's equally sensible to argue that Kenny is going to express an interest in Hossa. Again, this isn't me trying to rationalize an irrational argument. Rather, it's simply me explaining what any reasonable GM in Kenny's position would do. Contrary to what you seem to believe, egroen, Hossa coming here does not necessarily have to destroy the team in terms of its financial situation or its chemistry. It's a distinct possibility, but it's not a certainty -- certainly not to the point where Kenny shouldn't even make a courtesy call. In all likelihood, Kenny -- the same Kenny who was chasing Elias not too long ago, as NN pointced out -- will see how well he can sell the Wings to Hossa (i.e., see whether or not Hossa has an interest in playing here if it means earning less than what he'd earn with other clubs like the Pens). For all we know, Hossa is "testing the waters" only to see if he can sign with the Wings. That's not a terribly unrealistic thought. As I said before, if Hossa says, "No," then fine -- no skin off Kenny's back.

But it sure would be nice if he expressed an interest.

I don't think everyone here fully realizes how great a player Hossa is. Again: this is a guy who netted a hat trick against the Wings on a piss-poor Thrashers team this past regular season and then went on to almost singlehandedly take the Wings to seven games in the Stanley Cup Finals. He's big, he's fast as hell, he scores, he backchecks, he rarely misses defensive assignments -- he's a monster. If given the supporting cast the Wings could give him, I believe he could challenge Datsyuk for the #2 spot on the forwards depth chart.

By now, I've noticed a common argument against adding that kind of package: "We don't need that." As I and others have touched on already, that's a flimsy position. True enough, one could argue that we have more important "needs." But if you're going to tell me Brian Rolston would fully address these supposed "needs," and that one of the big arguments in favor of this point is the idea that we lost against the Ducks a couple seasons ago because of our defense, or lack thereof...well, I'm going to take issue with that. As I've already said (noticing a trend?), if the Wings have holes, they're top-tier holes; we have a ton of depth on forward and on D. Secondary scorers? Holmstrom, Flip, Cleary, Sammy, Hudler, maybe Franzen -- we have more than enough secondary scorers. Energy forwards? Draper, Maltby, McCarty, Helm, Kopecky, Hudler, Abdelkader in a season or two, maybe Leino -- hell, Sammy played the best he's ever played as a Wing when he was playing on that checking line with Draper and Drake. On (a hypothetically Stuart-less) D? After Kronwall, it's practically a free-for-all between Lebda, Lilja, Chelios, Meech, Quincey, Ericsson and Kindl.

As I've also said (echo?), the Wings lost against the Ducks in that series because the Wings, pathetically, couldn't convert on something like six or seven straight 5-on-3s. They had the series handed to them on a silver platter time after time after time, but, bottom line: when everything was on the line, they couldn't put the puck in the net. While it's true that the Wings' offense depends heavily on the back end, the fact of the matter is the Wings' goal-scorers collectively dropped the ball. All of those lethal scorers, those clutch performers -- they couldn't bring home the bacon. Team defense wasn't really an issue then, and it certainly isn't one now. Looking at those names I listed, do you see a "need" for another guy who "won't score a ton of goals, but will ___"? I don't. Rolston's a great guy, a great player -- but I fail to see how he (who could cost as much as $5 million, which is about one Brad Stuart away from Hossa-like money) is a guy the Wings should totally go after, while Hossa is an absurdly unrealistic, irrational target. If we're trying to be stingy and ruthlessly logical in our personnel decisions, wouldn't it make sense to not sign someone like Rolston? Look at the names I listed -- do we need Brian Rolston any more than we need someone to further spread out our top-flight offensive attack?

One might argue, "Brian would probably be willing to bring his price down in order to play here," to which I say, "Fair enough. The same could be true of Marian."

[josh 0]

That's odd. They couldn't handle it without Hossa this year.

yea that is a werd move by the pens they will regret it next year!!!!!!!

[egroen 384]

I've been going through the numbers because it would be pretty sweet if there were a way to afford him...

Holland will not keep a cushion of a million or less, and he will not "hope" the cap goes up by more than 10% to over $62 million in '10.

The simplest and most realistic way would be to let Stuart walk this year, and let Franzen walk next year... assuming Hossa signs for a reasonable discount to Detroit, that would still give a safe cushion.

Is Hossa at $7+ million better than Stuart + Franzen at $6 million?

Maybe.

I would still prefer Stuart (or another legit #4 D) + Franzen though...

[Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

We were a hell of a lot tighter cap-wise when Kenny made a 6 year $5.5M/yr offer to Patrik Elias a couple summers back. Kenny would be stupid to not even try, especially since he'd have a full year to work something out.

I keep on haering people mentioning this Elias Scenario and im not doubting it but i sure as hell never heard of the offer. can anyone get me a thread or a link to some source to this just so i can get the whole story.

I'm not sure why we're even having this argument. My arguments are simple, straightforward and innocuous.

As I said, if you're Ken Holland, and you learn there's a chance you could sign Hossa without absolutely breaking your back, you're going to make at least one courtesy phone call. The simple fact that Hossa rejected the Pens' offer implies that he's open to ideas and offers -- such as, conceivably, playing for less if it means playing for a team that's even more competitive than the Pens. Kenny has nothing to lose by putting in a call and an offer; if Hossa rejects it, then hey, no skin off Kenny's back. If Hossa says, "Alright, I'm listening," the Wings' financial situation is not so tight that any situation involving Hossa coming here would surely drive the team straight into the ground for all eternity (*volcano*, *lightning*, *tsunami*, *atom bomb*, *nuclear winter*, etc.)

Moreover, as I've also said before, I'm not crazy about this "We don't need ___" argument. We didn't need Dallas Drake. We didn't need Darren McCarty. We didn't need Brad Stuart. Personnel decisions aren't always made on a strict, unforgiving "absolutely need/absolutely don't need" basis, especially with a "flexible" team like the Wings. So, while we may not absolutely, unequivocally need a guy like Hossa, he would certainly be a phenomenal addition and is therefore worth at least a generic phone call expressing interest in his services. Furthermore, I question the notion that all we "need" to do is "fill out the bottom of our roster." In my opinion, "the bottom" is set on both forward and D. Regarding the former, we have names like Maltby, McCarty, Hudler, Helm and Kopecky to work with. Regarding the latter, we have that pesky logjam everyone's talking about, with Lebda, Lilja, Meech, Quincey, Ericsson and Kindl all battling for the same one or two spots on the blue line. The point here is that if Holland is going to make a move for someone, that someone might as well be a top-tier someone (doesn't have to be Hossa), as we have more than enough secondary scorers (Flip, Sammy, Homer, etc.), energy guys, and depth defensemen. Even if Holland has no interest in Hossa, it might be worth getting his fingers in that pie, if only to screw with the Sharks and Stars, who will surely be making calls of their own.