Some good news for Red Wings

[10 Minute Misconduct 104]

I would love to see Rolston in a Wings uniform. I think it will happen. Holland says he can offer $4-5 mill on a forward for one or two years, and Rolston is looking for just exactly that. On top of things he's from Michigan, so it'll probably be hard for him to say no.

[SwedeLundin77 460]

I'm not entirely sure we could get Roston for 3.5 million... I think more realistically, he would be making at minimum, 4 million, and at max 5.5 million. Although I do agree that he may take a hometown discount. Rolston, in my opinion, is the best FA this summer for our system. Great shot, can be physical, natural leader, solid defensively, and he's a team player.

I am not sure Zetterberg will get 7.5, because I think he'll play the good guy and take around the same pay that Datsyuk gets. Right around 6.5, especially if he knows that Kenny is planning on bringing in some more firepower or a top four d-man if Stuart doesn't work out. Of course I could be wrong, but I just believe that Zetterberg is too classy of a guy to take more or request more than his buddy Dats is getting.

Depending on how Franzen's year plays out, he'll get around 3 to 4 million on a multi-year extension, for sure.

Taking this all into consideration, I believe we could sign Rolston at 4 million for two years and get away with it, of course we'll probably offer him 5 or so million for one year to make sure he fits well into our system and then sign him to an extension, just seems like a Kenny move.

Here is how I see it all breaking down for the 09/10 season:

Datsyuk: 6.7

Zetterberg: 6.7

Holmstrom: 2.25

Rolston: 4

Franzen: 4

Filppula: 2.5

Draper: 1.65

Hudler: 2.25

Cleary: 2.8

Maltby: .850

Helm: .500

Abdelkader: .710

McCarty: .850

Forwards: 35.76

Lidstrom: 7.45

Rafalski: 6

Kronwall: 3

Stuart or other top 4-man: 3

Lebda: .850

Lilja: 1

Chelios: .750

Meech: .500

Defensemen: 22.65 million

Osgood: 1.45

Howard: 1

Goalies: 2.45 million

TOTAL: 60.76 or 58.76 roughly if we cannot sign and do not replace Stuart with a high-end UFA this summer.

Assuming the cap rises at an equal or close to equal rate as it did for this up-coming season. Otherwise it may have to come down to either Stuart or Rolston, in which case i'd take Rolston since we have plenty of our own d-men to bring up and would be served well to play. AKA: Ericsson, Kindl, Smith...

Oh well, that is my in-depth probably non-sensical plan for 09/10... Glad i'm not a GM.

[Dabura 12,232]

That is bad news for the Wings. Don't get distracted by 2nd tier forwards. Go big or not at all. Don't tie up money in mid-range guys. He's 35 and looking for $4-5M/yr. In a year or two he won't be any better than Franzen, Fil, or Cleary who would be making as much as $2M/yr less.

This.

[Guest Dump-N-Thump]

I wish we could get rid of Kopecky. Thta is all.

Really? why.

ALSO

Flames put Nilson, Warrener, and Eriksson on waivers ‎

So far alot of rumors are revolving that Detroit will look at Nilson... Cheap Vetran Checking winger.. who is a swede.. i personaly am on the fence.. im leaning torwards no thanks.

[LeftWinger 5,153]

...this is interesting news. Do you think Rafalski and Rolston have played some golf together this year? Rolston should give Detroit some serious thought. It is a system he can fit into...

...would be nice, but trust Holland, whatever he does it'll work out eventually. Heck even the Sammy experiment paid dividends eventually...

[Dabura 12,232]

Rolston would be a depth guy for the Wings -- maybe a second-line energy guy at best. The Wings, however, have more than enough depth guys and secondary scorers. Why bring in more of what we already have for $3-4 million? Personally, I'd rather see that $3-4 million (Rolston will probably ultimately fetch 4) be put towards a big-name signing.

NN said it best: go big or not at all.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Rolston would be a depth guy for the Wings -- maybe a second-line energy guy at best. The Wings, however, have more than enough depth guys and secondary scorers. Why bring in more of what we already have for $3-4 million? Personally, I'd rather see that $3-4 million (Rolston will probably ultimately fetch 4) be put towards a big-name signing.

NN said it best: go big or not at all.

Rolston really isnt a "secondary" scorer. Hes a legit 2nd liner. Its hard for us to conceive of 2nd liners as being primary scorers, since we barely have a 2nd liner that can break 45 points (which by nature of the offensive production negates the status as a 2nd line player, but I digress), but he is very good for 25-30 goals and 55-60 points. Not to mention hes solid in all other aspects of the game.

As much as people on this board have a bone over Franzen and Filppula, and think they'll score 40 goals and 80 points, respectively, next year, Rolston would be our #3 producer up front. Hank, Datsyuk, Rolston. Look at the numbers (and that sick wrist shot) and its pretty evident.

That said, signing Rolston makes ZERO sense unless it were a HUGE discount (2.5-2.8M) or 3-5M on a one year contract. Neither of those I would mind, but since both those scenarios are similar to expecting Hossa to sign a 1 year, 3M contract with us, its not going to happen.

So really, any debate on a Rolston addition is a moot point, as much as I hate to say it. Ive wanted this guy in a Wings jersey since his years in Boston...

[Dabura 12,232]

I think between Franzen, Flip, Cleary, Sammy and Hudler, the need for a $3-4-million-dollar guy who's not an elite scorer just isn't there. Also, I understand he has a big following here and everything, but him taking 3-5 for one year isn't similar to Hossa taking 3 for one year. I'm not really sure how you're reaching that conclusion, or what relevance it has.

[VM1138 1,921]

Rolston would be a depth guy for the Wings -- maybe a second-line energy guy at best. The Wings, however, have more than enough depth guys and secondary scorers. Why bring in more of what we already have for $3-4 million? Personally, I'd rather see that $3-4 million (Rolston will probably ultimately fetch 4) be put towards a big-name signing.

NN said it best: go big or not at all.

What? Rolston is pretty big. The only ones bigger are Sundin and Hossa. Once again, players we stand no chance of getting. Not to mention that Rolston would be a great impact player for our team. He's a solid second liner at WORST. Why you would pass up on pretty much guaranteed production in favor of a pipe dream....I don't know.

Rolston would be going big.

And to the person who asked why I wanted to get rid of Kopecky: It's for the same reason so many people want Chelios to retire. We have a lot of young talent, and Kopecky just isn't cutting it. He was doing nothing when he was here. Then he got injured. It takes on average a year for a player to get back to form. Which means IN A YEAR he will be back to being a nobody who does nothing. Then MAYBE next season he starts to develop, but probably not.

[puckbags 863]

So far alot of rumors are revolving that Detroit will look at Nilson... Cheap Vetran Checking winger.. who is a swede.. i personaly am on the fence.. im leaning torwards no thanks.

Source? I really find it hard to believe that the Wing's would be interested in Nilson !!

[Dabura 12,232]

Rolston is pretty big.

Exactly: he's "pretty big." I would rather see Kenny save the 4 million or try putting it towards a bona fide elite scorer than sign another "pretty big" player who "won't score a ton, but will totally make up for it with ___." We have enough guys who won't score a ton but will totally make up for it with solid defensive play and leadership and what have you. The guy's also getting up there in age, so if he's looking for somewhere around four years, he'd probably peak at about halfway through his contract. At least with Sundin, you'd have him for two years at most.

[norrisnick 1]

Rolston really isnt a "secondary" scorer. Hes a legit 2nd liner. Its hard for us to conceive of 2nd liners as being primary scorers, since we barely have a 2nd liner that can break 45 points (which by nature of the offensive production negates the status as a 2nd line player, but I digress), but he is very good for 25-30 goals and 55-60 points. Not to mention hes solid in all other aspects of the game.

As much as people on this board have a bone over Franzen and Filppula, and think they'll score 40 goals and 80 points, respectively, next year, Rolston would be our #3 producer up front. Hank, Datsyuk, Rolston. Look at the numbers (and that sick wrist shot) and its pretty evident.

That said, signing Rolston makes ZERO sense unless it were a HUGE discount (2.5-2.8M) or 3-5M on a one year contract. Neither of those I would mind, but since both those scenarios are similar to expecting Hossa to sign a 1 year, 3M contract with us, its not going to happen.

So really, any debate on a Rolston addition is a moot point, as much as I hate to say it. Ive wanted this guy in a Wings jersey since his years in Boston...

You can't take the production a guy gets playing 20+ minutes on the 1st line/1st PP elsewhere and expect the same getting maybe 15min here on the 2nd line/2nd PP unit.

Remember Ray Whitney? Check his stats before and after Detroit.

[VM1138 1,921]

You can't take the production a guy gets playing 20+ minutes on the 1st line/1st PP elsewhere and expect the same getting maybe 15min here on the 2nd line/2nd PP unit.

Remember Ray Whitney? Check his stats before and after Detroit.

We wouldn't be looking for him to put up huge numbers. That's the point. We would need him to chip in some goals or assists on a consistent basis, and playing with Franzen and Filpulla he could do that.

And to all you dismissing his age and his defensive play, how often have yuo been proved wrong? Would you rather we go after an enforcer?

[YoungGuns1340 1]

I think between Franzen, Flip, Cleary, Sammy and Hudler, the need for a $3-4-million-dollar guy who's not an elite scorer just isn't there. Also, I understand he has a big following here and everything, but him taking 3-5 for one year isn't similar to Hossa taking 3 for one year. I'm not really sure how you're reaching that conclusion, or what relevance it has.

Unless youre really dense, the connection is clear. All I was saying is its no more reasonable to expect Rolston to sign for 1 year at 5M or 3 years at 2.5M - i.e. the only circumstances under which we would sign Rolston - than it is for Hossa to sign at 1 year for 3M.

Edited June 26, 2008 by YoungGuns1340

[SwedeLundin77 460]

Exactly: he's "pretty big." I would rather see Kenny save the 4 million or try putting it towards a bona fide elite scorer than sign another "pretty big" player who "won't score a ton, but will totally make up for it with ___." We have enough guys who won't score a ton but will totally make up for it with solid defensive play and leadership and what have you. The guy's also getting up there in age, so if he's looking for somewhere around four years, he'd probably peak at about halfway through his contract. At least with Sundin, you'd have him for two years at most.

I'm sorry, but you're crazy.... Have you looked at Rolston's numbers? The guy is a solid 30 goal scorer, and that is with Minnesota!!! He is 35 years old, but s***, you're going to tell me that he is going to slow down that significantly that he is going to be serviceable within 2 or 3 years? That's a joke man. Maybe you should talk to Mr. Chelios. Rolston would be a solid second line scorer that would be killer on the powerplay and an excellent addition to this team. He brings a physical edge, a great shot (which we have lacked since Shanny left) and great leadership qualities.

Make it happen, Kenny, bring him home!

[norrisnick 1]

We wouldn't be looking for him to put up huge numbers. That's the point. We would need him to chip in some goals or assists on a consistent basis, and playing with Franzen and Filpulla he could do that.

And to all you dismissing his age and his defensive play, how often have yuo been proved wrong? Would you rather we go after an enforcer?

Then Rolston should expect $2-2.5M/yr like the other role players we have. He's not going to get a bigger role than guys like Homer, Fil, Cleary, or Franzen. No need bringing in a mid-range guy looking for $4-5M/yr. It's those players and those contracts that you need to avoid in the cap world.

We've got 4, soon to be 5, guys making north of $6M/yr. No one else is or will be making more than $3M/yr in forseeable future. That's how we're successful. We've got elite guys and we've got the young and/or cheap secondary guys. Bringing in relatively expensive secondary guys like Rolston or Malone (on many people's wishlist) isn't going to help us now or in the long run.

[norrisnick 1]

I'm sorry, but you're crazy.... Have you looked at Rolston's numbers? The guy is a solid 30 goal scorer, and that is with Minnesota!!! He is 35 years old, but s***, you're going to tell me that he is going to slow down that significantly that he is going to be serviceable within 2 or 3 years? That's a joke man. Maybe you should talk to Mr. Chelios. Rolston would be a solid second line scorer that would be killer on the powerplay and an excellent addition to this team. He brings a physical edge, a great shot (which we have lacked since Shanny left) and great leadership qualities.

Make it happen, Kenny, bring him home!

He's scoring 30 goals playing well over 20 minutes a night with Minnesota.

He won't get anywhere close to that in a secondary role with the Wings. If guys are looking to cash in on primary role production with lesser teams they need to find themselves teams where they'll be primary players. The Wings aren't going to keep winning if they give aging role-players $4-5M/yr. Especially 35 year-olds who base their game on blazing speed and a blazing shot. The wheels will come off sooner rather than later.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

You can't take the production a guy gets playing 20+ minutes on the 1st line/1st PP elsewhere and expect the same getting maybe 15min here on the 2nd line/2nd PP unit.

Remember Ray Whitney? Check his stats before and after Detroit.

Straw man argument.

When Ray Whitney signed with Detroit, he was the league leader in PP Time. That year - his last with the BJs - he was averaging 6:07 minutes of PP time. Of course his stats were going to go down.

Just to show how prolific that is, Whitney was averaging 23 seconds more that year than the league leader in PP time this year. (Im not counting Micki Duponts 5:52 average since he only played 2 games). Thats significantly higher than Kovalchuk, Malkin, Crosby, Phaneuf, Ovechking, etc. And as a reference, Whitneys PP time went down to 2:35 with the Wings. (By comparison, if you were to cut Brian Rolstons PP time this year down by 3:32 seconds as Whitneys was in his switch to Detroit, he would average only 15 seconds of PP time per game, but thats neither here nor there.)

That is a very inflated comparison. Tell me when Brian Rolston leads the NHL with 6 minutes of PP time and we can have this discussion.

As for Brian Rolston, he averaged 3:47 of PP time with the Wild. Ironically, that would put him at 33 seconds below Tomas Holmstrom's 4:21 average, who sits third in PP time amongst Detroits forwards. Good enough for the #1 forward on the 2nd PP unit, which is exactly what he would/should be, despite the fact that hed likely be our 3rd most productive forward.

As for the suggestion that Rolston's offensive production would suddenly fall off if he were to join the Wings, I fail to see how going from the defense first Wild who have terrible offensive support and as a group potted 34 fewer goals than Detroit did (and have averaged 42 goals fewer than Detroit in Rolstons 3 years with the Wild) is going to have some sort of incredible detriment to his scoring. At the very least that would compensate for some of the lesser PP time he would see on Detroit.

And as for your "1st line" fallacy, he has only been on the first line in Minnesota where their offensive depth has only been decent in 1 of Rolstons 3 years. When he was with Boston, he was relegated to 2nd line duty, as Boston's first line was Samsonov-Thornton-Murray, and Murray was more or less a constant in Big Joes time with the Bs.

So no, its not comparable to Ray Whitney's situation, and its a straw man argument to say Rolston will be nothing more than a 40 point producer in Detroit.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

He's scoring 30 goals playing well over 20 minutes a night with Minnesota.

He won't get anywhere close to that in a secondary role with the Wings. If guys are looking to cash in on primary role production with lesser teams they need to find themselves teams where they'll be primary players. The Wings aren't going to keep winning if they give aging role-players $4-5M/yr. Especially 35 year-olds who base their game on blazing speed and a blazing shot. The wheels will come off sooner rather than later.

His TOI this season was 20:04. Hardly "well over".

And before you jump on my back anymore, my point was never that the Wings should sign him. Purely that if they did - which they wont considering theres no way money or terms can be sacrificed to get the right deal here - he would be more than the oodles of mediocre 2nd liners we have here.

[SwedeLundin77 460]

Straw man argument.

When Ray Whitney signed with Detroit, he was the league leader in PP Time. That year - his last with the BJs - he was averaging 6:07 minutes of PP time. Of course his stats were going to go down.

Just to show how prolific that is, Whitney was averaging 23 seconds more that year than the league leader in PP time this year. (Im not counting Micki Duponts 5:52 average since he only played 2 games). Thats significantly higher than Kovalchuk, Malkin, Crosby, Phaneuf, Ovechking, etc. And as a reference, Whitneys PP time went down to 2:35 with the Wings. (By comparison, if you were to cut Brian Rolstons PP time this year down by 3:32 seconds as Whitneys was in his switch to Detroit, he would average only 15 seconds of PP time per game, but thats neither here nor there.)

That is a very inflated comparison. Tell me when Brian Rolston leads the NHL with 6 minutes of PP time and we can have this discussion.

As for Brian Rolston, he averaged 3:47 of PP time with the Wild. Ironically, that would put him at 33 seconds below Tomas Holmstrom's 4:21 average, who sits third in PP time amongst Detroits forwards. Good enough for the #1 forward on the 2nd PP unit, which is exactly what he would/should be, despite the fact that hed likely be our 3rd most productive forward.

As for the suggestion that Rolston's offensive production would suddenly fall off if he were to join the Wings, I fail to see how going from the defense first Wild who have terrible offensive support and as a group potted 34 fewer goals than Detroit did (and have averaged 42 goals fewer than Detroit in Rolstons 3 years with the Wild) is going to have some sort of incredible detriment to his scoring. At the very least that would compensate for some of the lesser PP time he would see on Detroit.

And as for your "1st line" fallacy, he has only been on the first line in Minnesota where their offensive depth has only been decent in 1 of Rolstons 3 years. When he was with Boston, he was relegated to 2nd line duty, as Boston's first line was Samsonov-Thornton-Murray, and Murray was more or less a constant in Big Joes time with the Bs.

So no, its not comparable to Ray Whitney's situation, and its a straw man argument to say Rolston will be nothing more than a 40 point producer in Detroit.

THANK YOU SO MUCH, took the words right out of my mouth and presented them with much more clarity! Shut these naysayers up! Haha, some people are soooooo critical, it's not even funny!

[YoungGuns1340 1]

You can't take the production a guy gets playing 20+ minutes on the 1st line/1st PP elsewhere and expect the same getting maybe 15min here on the 2nd line/2nd PP unit.

Remember Ray Whitney? Check his stats before and after Detroit.

You think Rolston would get 15 minutes of ice time on the Wings? I guess if you really think he'd be our #8 forward.

Johan Franzen came in #3 for the Wings, and he averaged nearly 18 minutes a game. Which is around what Rolston would likely average on any team with the Wings depth.

[betterREDthandead 58]

THANK YOU SO MUCH, took the words right out of my mouth and presented them with much more clarity! Shut these naysayers up! Haha, some people are soooooo critical, it's not even funny!

God forbid somebody think it's a bad idea to sign the player you want, eh?

[norrisnick 1]

Straw man argument.

When Ray Whitney signed with Detroit, he was the league leader in PP Time. That year - his last with the BJs - he was averaging 6:07 minutes of PP time. Of course his stats were going to go down.

Just to show how prolific that is, Whitney was averaging 23 seconds more that year than the league leader in PP time this year. (Im not counting Micki Duponts 5:52 average since he only played 2 games). Thats significantly higher than Kovalchuk, Malkin, Crosby, Phaneuf, Ovechking, etc. And as a reference, Whitneys PP time went down to 2:35 with the Wings. (By comparison, if you were to cut Brian Rolstons PP time this year down by 3:32 seconds as Whitneys was in his switch to Detroit, he would average only 15 seconds of PP time per game, but thats neither here nor there.)

That is a very inflated comparison. Tell me when Brian Rolston leads the NHL with 6 minutes of PP time and we can have this discussion.

As for Brian Rolston, he averaged 3:47 of PP time with the Wild. Ironically, that would put him at 33 seconds below Tomas Holmstrom's 4:21 average, who sits third in PP time amongst Detroits forwards. Good enough for the #1 forward on the 2nd PP unit, which is exactly what he would/should be, despite the fact that hed likely be our 3rd most productive forward.

As for the suggestion that Rolston's offensive production would suddenly fall off if he were to join the Wings, I fail to see how going from the defense first Wild who have terrible offensive support and as a group potted 34 fewer goals than Detroit did (and have averaged 42 goals fewer than Detroit in Rolstons 3 years with the Wild) is going to have some sort of incredible detriment to his scoring. At the very least that would compensate for some of the lesser PP time he would see on Detroit.

And as for your "1st line" fallacy, he has only been on the first line in Minnesota where their offensive depth has only been decent in 1 of Rolstons 3 years. When he was with Boston, he was relegated to 2nd line duty, as Boston's first line was Samsonov-Thornton-Murray, and Murray was more or less a constant in Big Joes time with the Bs.

So no, its not comparable to Ray Whitney's situation, and its a straw man argument to say Rolston will be nothing more than a 40 point producer in Detroit.

Horse s***. There's nothing straw about it.

My argument was and is that Rolston would be going from a primary role to a secondary role. His three years in Minny he's been #1 or #2 in TOI for forwards. The three years before that in Boston he was top 3. That will not continue. He won't get anywhere NEAR 20min+/gm like he's seen for the past 6-7 years.

And he won't get over a minute more PP time than the rest of our 2nd unit. He's not going to kick Nick, Raf, or Nik off the point and that's what he's been playing. And that's where he's racked up 39 of his goals the last three seasons.

His role and icetime will be drastically reduced. If you don't think his numbers will reflect that, you're deluding yourself.

And as far as strawmen go, the bolded section is a delicious bit of irony.

[norrisnick 1]

You think Rolston would get 15 minutes of ice time on the Wings? I guess if you really think he'd be our #8 forward.

Johan Franzen came in #3 for the Wings, and he averaged nearly 18 minutes a game. Which is around what Rolston would likely average on any team with the Wings depth.

Except the Wings.

Datsyuk - Zetterberg - Holmstrom. Rolston isn't bumping any of those.

Franzen - Filppula - Cleary. These are Babcock's golden boys. Good luck, Brian!

The Wings are the last place Rolston should look unless he wants to be a 3rd liner and ride coattails to a shot at the Cup. He's a solid player on a weak team, but there aren't any teams out there deeper than us.

[SwedeLundin77 460]

God forbid somebody think it's a bad idea to sign the player you want, eh?

Umm, not really. Somebody came along with a sound argument, not just a prediction that a player will slow down and lose his edge after X amount of time.