Jiri Hudler

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

I tend to agree with Heaton here. This Wings team isn't the same as it was coming out of the lockout and as a whole the entire team is tougher. Now, the loss of Drake takes away obvious toughness as does the absence of Downey (and even Mac), but the team as a whole is much tougher than enforcer-slappies want to admit.

Now, thats not saying that adding a tough guy to replace the void Drake will leave isn't necessary. It's also not to say that Downey and Mac aren't valuable to this team. IMO, one or both of those two should be signed and with the loss of Drake guys like Kopecky will need to step up their physicality even more.

I agree with all the enforcer fans that this team does need that balance to continue to be successful and stay healthy, and I agree its very important to sign Downey or Mac (or both), but I also feel this team isn't the soft bunch that everyone saw coming out of the lockout.

Again, balance.

[norrisnick 1]

*sigh*

Did you care to even read? did i say anything about Hossa? did i mention his name more then once ffs? NO.

IM ******* SAYING THAT WE NEED SOME PEOPLE TO PROTECT PEOPLE LIKE HOSSA/DATSYUK/ZETTERBERG.. ******* christ you guys are ******* thick.

How is Downey punching Ian around a bit AFTER he already took Lidstrom out of the lineup protecting him?

[Dabura 12,232]

Man 'o Man, That is PHENOMINAL, We should have no problem bulldozing through the western conference..

Glad you agree.

If I were to go to, say, a Blue Jackets forum and say something to the effect of "Well, yeah, I mean, the Wings are going to be awesome, but, you know, we're only going to have, like, one enforcer. GULP!" I think I'd be banned for trolling.

Why single out Downey?

Because he's the least valuable of the bunch, and because he and Mac seem to be the focus of this conversation. Downey's not an especially good hockey player; he just fights and yaps. Kopecky can actually play the game of hockey -- and without being a flat-out liability, at that. Furthermore, he hasn't reached his full potential. I'm not crazy about Kopecky, but he's more valuable than Downey.

It is surprising to me that even after last season, people don't see the value in having guys like Downey and Drake on the team.

I'm hoping this wasn't directed at me, as I've never said I don't see the value in having a guy like Downey around. I haven't even said that I think Holland should axe him. My point is that these people running their mouths about "enforcing" all over LGW these days are, generally, overstating the importance of "enforcing." (Not that you're one of them.)

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I think we're on the same page harold, one or two guys who will do the fighting is fine, they players like it, hell they liked Brad Norton. But the notion that something actually needs to be changed is foolish. 2008 Stanley Cup Champions.

Exactly.

I don't think they need more fighting. They just need that little bit that Downey, Mac, and Drake brought. Whether it's from those two guys or someone else doesn't matter a whole lot to me.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

How is Downey punching Ian around a bit AFTER he already took Lidstrom out of the lineup protecting him?

It doesn't. But take a look at the Red Wings bench. You don't think that Downey sticking up for the captain meant anything to the team?

[Dabura 12,232]

No one is denying the fact that Downey's actions tend to boost morale.

I feel like we've got about 8,000 different wavelengths in this thread.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I'm hoping this wasn't directed at me, as I've never said I don't see the value in having a guy like Downey around. I haven't even said that I think Holland should axe him. My point is that these people running their mouths about "enforcing" all over LGW these days are, generally, overstating the importance of "enforcing." (Not that you're one of them.)

It wasn't. I've just read several people talking about how the Downey's (or some other enforcers) spot in the lineup could be used with some player that has more skill.

I'm repeating myself here, but basically I just want the Wings to maintain the level they had from last year with Downey and Drake, and later Mac.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

No one is denying the fact that Downey's actions tend to boost morale.

I feel like we've got about 8,000 different wavelengths in this thread.

No, but I think people often argue that because it doesn't prevent the cheapshots, it does no good.

I just realized this was originally a thread about Hudler. I think I've said my peace and dragged this far enough off topic.

[norrisnick 1]

It doesn't. But take a look at the Red Wings bench. You don't think that Downey sticking up for the captain meant anything to the team?

Then you guys should quit ***** footing around the issue and call it like it is.

Downey is not a protector. Downey is a cheerleader.

Fun to look at. Boosts morale. But in the end isn't going to win you any games.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Then you guys should quit ***** footing around the issue and call it like it is.

Downey is not a protector. Downey is a cheerleader.

Fun to look at. Boosts morale. But in the end isn't going to win you any games.

Wrong.

I would bet my paycheck that nearly every player on the Red Wings disagrees with that statement.

Here's one (which I think I quoted earlier in this thread):

"For example," adds Zetterberg, "the (second) time we played St. Louis away, Downey wasn't in the lineup."

That was the 3-2 loss to the Blues on Dec. 20, a game in which Babcock later fumed, "We let them dictate the physical style of play."

A week later, the Wings won in St. Louis, 5-0, "and their guys acted way differently," Zetterberg said. "Was it because Downey was in the lineup? I would say so."

http://blog.mlive.com/snapshots/2008/01/do...g_to_thank.html

Like it or not, having a guy like Downey in the lineup changes how the team plays, which also wins them games.

I wonder how Steve Yzerman felt about having Probert on his wing. Just a cheerleader I suppose.

Edited July 24, 2008 by haroldsnepsts

[norrisnick 1]

Wrong.

I would bet my paycheck that nearly every player on the Red Wings disagrees with that statement.

Here's one (which I think I quoted earlier in this thread):

http://blog.mlive.com/snapshots/2008/01/do...g_to_thank.html

Like it or not, having a guy like Downey in the lineup changes how the team plays, which also wins them games.

I wonder how Steve Yzerman felt about having Probert on his wing. Just a cheerleader I suppose.

Of course the Wings aren't going to toss a member of their team under the bus.

That said not showing up to play against the Blues is more a reflection on the team as a whole (and the coaching staff) than Downey's impact.

Hell even that game referenced where a week later with Downey they won 5-0. Well less than a week after that they lost 2-0 to the Blues. Where was Aaron there? Playing but ineffective.

Probert was the most feared HW in the league. He could also PLAY the game of hockey. He was an all-star in '88 and set the Wings' single season playoff scoring record that year. Bob had 11 seasons where he outpaced Downey's CAREER point total. No comparison at all.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

No, but I think people often argue that because it doesn't prevent the cheapshots, it does no good.

I just realized this was originally a thread about Hudler. I think I've said my peace and dragged this far enough off topic.

That's because people here have bought into a soft team to the point where they don't undestand what every other team is doing and that there is a need for enforcers and always has been throughout NHL history.

Some posters here on LGW are living on their own little planet.

Also, everyone is forgetting that injuries will inevitably happen like they always do, and in those situations that's where guys like Downey and Mac would be counted on to come in and fill roster spots. Thus, signing those guys is paramount. IN fact, all of Downey's action last year came when he was filling in for an injured player.

[Heaton 1]

That's because people here have bought into a soft team to the point where they don't undestand what every other team is doing and that there is a need for enforcers and always has been throughout NHL history.

Some posters here on LGW are living on their own little planet.

The irony is overwhelming.

No one has bought into a 'soft team', people buy into the Red Wings team who just happen to be the best team in terms of front office, winning and doing almost everything exclusively right. Not believing that toughness is exclusive to fighting isn't clamoring for a 'soft' team.

The Wings are as tough as any team in the league, with or without Aaron Downey or Darren McCarty. They just add an element that have intangibles that the players and coaches respect.

Like I've said a million times, the majority of people who want a change in style or a sizeable change in personnel have an inferiority complex, like the winning on the scoreboard is hollow without winning a few fights to "justify" it. Wanting Aaron Downey on the team because you feel he adds an element that will help the team win games or make players accountable (and because you like fights) is one thing. Wanting Aaron Downey on the team because then your (and when I say "your" I use it in a general sense) manhood is justified and you feel it lessens the uneducated references to the Wings on internet message boards is another.

The toughness that matters the most is the toughness that makes you win in the playoffs.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

The irony is overwhelming.

No one has bought into a 'soft team', people buy into the Red Wings team who just happen to be the best team in terms of front office, winning and doing almost everything exclusively right. Not believing that toughness is exclusive to fighting isn't clamoring for a 'soft' team.

The Wings are as tough as any team in the league, with or without Aaron Downey or Darren McCarty. They just add an element that have intangibles that the players and coaches respect.

Like I've said a million times, the majority of people who want a change in style or a sizeable change in personnel have an inferiority complex, like the winning on the scoreboard is hollow without winning a few fights to "justify" it. Wanting Aaron Downey on the team because you feel he adds an element that will help the team win games or make players accountable (and because you like fights) is one thing. Wanting Aaron Downey on the team because then your (and when I say "your" I use it in a general sense) manhood is justified and you feel it lessens the uneducated references to the Wings on internet message boards is another.

The toughness that matters the most is the toughness that makes you win in the playoffs.

Whatever you say, Sigmund.

I don't know what psychiatry has anything to do with this debate. Who says a team can't win games and be middle of the pack in fighting majors at the same time?

Is that really too much to desire. And yes, it does bother me when fans and players around the league view the Wings as a soft team that can be taken advantage of physically. Even when we win, it still bothers me that the team is looked upon that way.

And the Stanley Cup isn't something that comes around every year. If this team doesn't win it next year, once again softness is going to be brought up, since there's nothing else anyone can point at as a criticism.

[Heaton 1]

Basically what you're asking for is an extra 10-15 fights for entertainment value that have no effect either way on the team or outcome of the game. That kinda goes against why this team is so successful. Babcock isn't going to preach discipline then demand a few fights for entertainements sake.

And your mindset has everything to do with the argument. You're putting your own wants in front of the team, which is fine I guess, you're a fan and can have your own opinion.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Of course the Wings aren't going to toss a member of their team under the bus.

That said not showing up to play against the Blues is more a reflection on the team as a whole (and the coaching staff) than Downey's impact.

Hell even that game referenced where a week later with Downey they won 5-0. Well less than a week after that they lost 2-0 to the Blues. Where was Aaron there? Playing but ineffective.

Probert was the most feared HW in the league. He could also PLAY the game of hockey. He was an all-star in '88 and set the Wings' single season playoff scoring record that year. Bob had 11 seasons where he outpaced Downey's CAREER point total. No comparison at all.

Nice try, but that's not even close to what's happening.

They're not avoiding throwing him under the bus. One of the Wings top players specifically named Downey as a reason they won. Are you really that far in denial you think that specifically attributing a win to him is the same as "not throwing him under the bus?" Z could've made any generic comment about Downey.

From the same article:

"Let's face it: The one thing you know he's going to do is take care of everybody in this room," forward Kris Draper said. "That's something we haven't had in a few years."

I guess Draper means spiritually?

There was good quote from Lidstrom a while back, but I can't find the link now.

As for Probert, you're right. He was the most feared fighter in the league. So following that logic I guess the Wings should actually get a better enforcer than Downey. The problem is not his role, but that he's not good enough at it.

You're just plain wrong about this one. Yes the fans love it. But so do the guys on the team, and that does win games.

Z regarding Downey fighting McLaren after he ran Drake:

"It's great to see," Zetterberg said. "I think all of us got a little extra energy when he did that and it was a great fight. It changed the momentum back to our side. It doesn't happen that often, but now we've had four fights this year (Drake has the other three). It's good, it belongs in the game. The fans like it and we like it, too."

Babcock on Downey (emphasis mine):

"He knows how to play. He's never going to be accused of being overly skilled or overly fast, but he is overly determined and he's a great team guy, says good things and does good things and makes our team better."

I guess they're just not throwing him under the bus?

The ideal would absolutely be a guy who can play the game and fight like Probert in his prime. But they're very hard to come by. Short of that, I'll take someone like Downey. Without anyone filling that role, look forward to a season of the Wings getting run at and pushed around with no one to answer for it.

When you've got someone on your team who can go with the heavyweights, it's easier to throw the body yourself and muck it up.

[uk_redwing 495]

Nice try, but that's not even close to what's happening.

They're not avoiding throwing him under the bus. One of the Wings top players specifically named Downey as a reason they won. Are you really that far in denial you think that specifically attributing a win to him is the same as "not throwing him under the bus?" Z could've made any generic comment about Downey.

From the same article:

"Let's face it: The one thing you know he's going to do is take care of everybody in this room," forward Kris Draper said. "That's something we haven't had in a few years."

I guess Draper means spiritually?

There was good quote from Lidstrom a while back, but I can't find the link now.

As for Probert, you're right. He was the most feared fighter in the league. So following that logic I guess the Wings should actually get a better enforcer than Downey. The problem is not his role, but that he's not good enough at it.

You're just plain wrong about this one. Yes the fans love it. But so do the guys on the team, and that does win games.

Z regarding Downey fighting McLaren after he ran Drake:

Babcock on Downey (emphasis mine):

I guess they're just not throwing him under the bus?

The ideal would absolutely be a guy who can play the game and fight like Probert in his prime. But they're very hard to come by. Short of that, I'll take someone like Downey. Without anyone filling that role, look forward to a season of the Wings getting run at and pushed around with no one to answer for it.

When you've got someone on your team who can go with the heavyweights, it's easier to throw the body yourself and muck it up.

Dude...I love you.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Basically what you're asking for is an extra 10-15 fights for entertainment value that have no effect either way on the team or outcome of the game. That kinda goes against why this team is so successful. Babcock isn't going to preach discipline then demand a few fights for entertainements sake.

And your mindset has everything to do with the argument. You're putting your own wants in front of the team, which is fine I guess, you're a fan and can have your own opinion.

That's actually the best way to describe exactly what I'm looking for and wanting.

In my opinion there's nothing wrong with entertainment if you can still win at the same time.

[uk_redwing 495]

That's actually the best way to describe exactly what I'm looking for and wanting.

In my opinion there's nothing wrong with entertainment if you can still win at the same time.

Exactly. We all watch sport to be entertained.

If you're not entertained watching hockey fights...then I guess you're watching the wrong sport. Bit like watching Baseball and hate it when they score home-runs.

[Dabura 12,232]

I don't want to tell Matt how to do his job, but it might be worth making a Fight Fan Circle Jerk forum.

[Heaton 1]

Exactly. We all watch sport to be entertained.

If you're not entertained watching hockey fights...then I guess you're watching the wrong sport. Bit like watching Baseball and hate it when they score home-runs.

That's actually a quite poor comparison.

I love hockey, I love the Red Wings. I'm entertained by watching hockey in general and I'm even more entertained by watching the Red Wings which are my passion. Even if some games can get stale during the dog days of the season I don't believe that a 1 minute fight is going to fufill my entertainment needs. I like fights, I watch the '97 brawl whenever there's nothing else on TV. I hate the WWE style (Larauqe/Ivanans) useless scraps, hilarious on Youtube but really are all fluff with no substance. Other people love them, I'm fine with that I fully endorse peoples love of fighting but the Wings style doesn't accommodate 30 fights a year, it just doesn't.

Whenever Downey or McCarty fought this year there was a purpose, that's what I respect.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I don't want to tell Matt how to do his job, but it might be worth making a Fight Fan Circle Jerk forum.

Or an anti-enforcer forum where you guys can talk about how great Kopecky is and what a brilliant future he has, as well as wishing that every enforcer could score 20 goals and kill penalties.

Edited July 25, 2008 by GMRwings1983

[uk_redwing 495]

That's actually a quite poor comparison.

I was gonna do something football (soccer) related but decided to go with some american sport to increase chances of understanding.

[Heaton 1]

I was gonna do something football (soccer) related but decided to go with some american sport to increase chances of understanding.

It still would've failed I'd imagine.

[Guest Crymson]

Or an anti-enforcer forum where you guys can talk about how great Kopecky is and what a brilliant future he has, as well as wishing that every enforcer could score 20 goals and kill penalties.

Do you ever stop complaining?